US Nurses: We Can't Handle Ebola!

a reply to: FyreByrd

Nothing about dogs whatsoever....

Abstract

During the 2001–2002 outbreak in Gabon, we observed that several dogs were highly exposed to Ebola virus by eating infected dead animals. To examine whether these animals became infected with Ebola virus, we sampled 439 dogs and screened them by Ebola virus–specific immunoglobulin (Ig) G assay, antigen detection, and viral polymerase chain reaction amplification. Seven (8.9%) of 79 samples from the 2 main towns, 15 (15.2%) of 14 the 99 samples from Mekambo, and 40 (25.2%) of 159 samples from villages in the Ebola virus–epidemic area had detectable Ebola virus–IgG, compared to only 2 (2%) of 102 samples from France. Among dogs from villages with both infected animal carcasses and human cases, seroprevalence was 31.8%. A significant positive direct association existed between seroprevalence and the distances to the Ebola virus–epidemic area. This study suggests that dogs can be infected by Ebola virus and that the putative infection is asymptomatic.

Ebola Virus Antibody Prevalence in Dogs and Human Risk Author affiliations: *Centre International de Recherches Médicales de Franceville, Franceville, Gabon; †Centre Pasteur du Cameroun, Yaoundé, Cameroun; ‡Institut de Recherche pour le Développement, Paris, France

Care to retract the "fear mongering" assertion?

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Apologies for my words coming off as harsh. I have a tendency to not sugar coat, and be a bit too blunt at times when speaking my mind.

I have the utmost respect for the profession of nursing. A good friend of mine is a CNA at a retirement home, which is a largely thankless and draining (both physically and emotionally) job, and brings home basically peanuts.

I saw first hand my aunt succumb to a stroke before the age of 50, due largely to the stress that comes with working as a triage RN in a metro hospital.

It is a truly noble profession, one I personally am not cut out for (weak stomach for the various... fluids.... dealt with daily.) My "only for the paycheck" remark was meant not towards all nurses, but rather the ones who are not passionate and caring about their work, and do not feel it as their calling in life. Those types, as exist in any profession, can get lost.

Quality over quantity.

Here's hoping that the earlier speak of walking off the job in a SHTF scenario was merely some venting. I can't honestly say that the same thought wouldn't cross my mind if put into the situation.

Here's some love for the nurses, the unsung heroes. We need you, now more than ever.

Like Confucius say, "Man who wants pretty nurse, must be patient."

At my previous college the major degree program was nursing. I knew a lot of them and understand what they go through. It makes me sad to see so many nurses say they would quit if Ebola became an outbreak, I think I would do the opposite and volunteer though I'm not a health care worker.

I fully support the notion that nurses should be protected to the best our current technology allows but I also think those of you that would quit due to Ebola should rethink that position (not to say you shouldn't drive a hard bargain for proper protection). If Ebola becomes widespread either we treat it and contain it in the hospitals or we're going to have it on the streets. In the hospitals people are centralized and can be treated. When treatment is stopped due to a lack of resources everyone is at an even greater danger. Long term the best thing we can do (and I say we because I would be right there with you doing what I can if an outbreak happens) is to make sure the hospitals can handle the task.

If we have an Ebola outbreak the very last thing we need is people wandering the streets spreading the disease. I understand many of you have families to think about but what is better for your family? That you can help stop the epidemic even if it means not seeing them for a bit just to make sure it doesn't spread or that you give up, run to them, and cause the disease to become more widespread. To paraphrase Winston Churchill though in a slightly different context... we need to fight Ebola in the hospital, otherwise we'll be fighting it in our home.

Maybe I was a plague doctor in a past life...

US nurses won't have to handle ebola - because the US has been advised that care at home is the best course of action , rather than infecting hospitals , thereby inevitably losing valuable healthcare workers and facilities . Ebola is highly infectious , but only over a short period , the reason why at least 10% of its victims have been those caring for the sick and dying at treatment centres, and for the reports of fleeing staff . So the op and others who are worried don't have to panic . Its as possible a cross will go onto your front door if evd is in your house , and anyone with ebola going near a hospital will get shot (at range ) .

Ebola is now a pandemic , having crossed borders , spreading worldwide . That means also that the WHO is now in charge , via UN authority , from the top down . As was during the swine flu pandemic , if they decide to tape off the oval office and quarantine the potus in his house , then they can , and will . On medical grounds they determine . If martial law becomes a requirement , the WHO signs it off - screw any democracy , its a _pandemic , _already .

Same goes for my country too . But , what about China , India , Syria , Mexico City , just for examples ? The point being , what happens in the US or UK is virtually irrelevant : at least healthcare exists here . The world has to face this down , and the likelihood is , the doctors of the UN World Health Organisation will advise that anyone connected with ebola in any way (ie family members) will become the nurses . And more than likely the next victims , but , sh*t happens .

Don't expect life to be fair . Hope for the best however .

I applaud all the health care workers on this thread that have come forward and are trying to initiate a solution. Like an earlier poster said, there will have to be some tough decisions made, namely not letting Americans return home if they are in one of those countries.

From what a lot of health care professionals I have talked to personally have said, it seems our corporate hospital system has failed to learn any lessons from any of the infectious disease outbreaks that we have faced in the past 50 years. Many are comparing this to when HIV became an epidemic in the northeast. Nurses knew the basics about the it, but were not given the proper tools or training to deal with it, and many refused to see patients out of fear for their own safety. I don't blame them, and I am sure it is not a decision that any nurse makes lightly not to help a patient that is in need.

Remember this in November, the inaction of both sides of the aisle on this issue. Although the current director of the CDC is an Obama appointee, the previous appointee restructured the way the CDC works, and that was a Bush appointee. The handling of this situation was already established by the previous director, and the current one followed those guidelines blindly, so in my mind both are at fault.

We also currently have no Surgeon General due to neither side being willing to compromise on a candidate due to pressures from different lobbies.

In the end, this reminds me of the infamous incident in the video game World of Warcraft, where an ingame infection was spread and has been held up by many researchers as an example of what can happen should we encounter a viral epidemic. Here is a link for more information on that.

Epidemic

Once again, thank you to all the health care professionals out there that realize the gravity of this situation and are working toward a solution.

originally posted by: [post=18496003]Aazadan[/post If Ebola becomes widespread either we treat it and contain it in the hospitals or we're going to have it on the streets. In the hospitals people are centralized and can be treated. When treatment is stopped due to a lack of resources everyone is at an even greater danger. Long term the best thing we can do (and I say we because I would be right there with you doing what I can if an outbreak happens) is to make sure the hospitals can handle the task.

If we have an Ebola outbreak the very last thing we need is people wandering the streets spreading the disease. I understand many of you have families to think about but what is better for your family? That you can help stop the epidemic even if it means not seeing them for a bit just to make sure it doesn't spread or that you give up, run to them, and cause the disease to become more widespread. To paraphrase Winston Churchill though in a slightly different context... we need to fight Ebola in the hospital, otherwise we'll be fighting it in our home.

...

It's far too infectious to bring to hospitals . While that may be hard to swallow , on the plus side , people die very quickly of it . Sorry about that .

Just had a patient literally purposely cough in my face. As stated before I work on an ambulance and we got a call for a guy having the same symptoms as ebola. We attempted to put a mask on him but he kept taking it off and coughing.We tried repeatedly and asked him to keep it on but wouldnt.. (tried paper then o2 mask)He became incredibly combative at this point trying to punch and kick us. We had to actually tie him down to stop him but at that point we were already exposed to whatever he was sick with.. very likely he doesn't have ebola. But the point in my post is that protocols fail and if this guy were to have ebola I would be so screwed right now..maybe my fear is getting the best of me.

a reply to: lovebeck

My wife is a nurse in Dallas (not the same hospital as Mr. Ebola) but she isn't concerned. It all comes down to Universal Precautions which should be implemented whether you have an outbreak of Ebola or not. It's something that all healthcare workers are trained on. Treat every patient as if they were infected and take the proper steps to protect yourself from exposure (gloves, masks, gown...you get the idea). My wife has told horror stories of how nurses, techs etc. get lazy and will not think before they handle a patient (grab soiled linens with their bare hands, wear the same pair of gloves to a different patients room). It's the healthcare worker's responsibility to protect themselves and when done properly they are, in-turn, protecting the community as well.

a reply to: planetyeck

This thinking is far too simplistic. As #Aduro clearly stated, healthcare is a very risky and unpredictable business. In the case of a highly contagious virus Ebola or any other, anything short of #RandyVS's body condom, is no sure level of protection from contagion.

Even a body condom can be rendered useless with a puncture, rip, tear or manufactory defect. Some organisms find rubber products dessert or a suitable breeding ground. We know far less then we do about microscopic life on our tiny vacuumed packed little blue marble. We know that these micro entities are creatively adaptive and will likely be here when we aren't.

Universal precautions are a wise and greatly encouraged standard, but it is going to take a lot more than universal precautions to prevent exposure from a person coming into the hospital with a deadly, highly contagious disease.

At least she is off to a good start. Shelve the fear, turn on the commonsense, and take action to protect you and your family.

I also recommend education. Know thine enemy.

originally posted by: lovebeck

originally posted by: tinker9917
a reply to: lovebeck

I don't blame you for thinking this way. I would not do it either, putting my whole family at risk.

But, this leaves the questions... who WILL do it? How many will just be left uncared for? Sent home to die, just like in Africa?

Idk? The military?? Bring them over on the boat from the Philippines? That really happens, btw...

The health care system treats nurses, who are the BACK BONE of every hospital from sea to shining sea, like dirt, for the most part. If your a surgeon or some super specialist, you're treated like gold. They'd get those suits and they spend NO time with the patients, lol! Argh, what. BS.

My Dr. is from south Africa and belongs to Doctors without Borders I asked if he would be going back to help ,he said absolutely not he said they don't need Doctors there's really nothing to be done.All one can do is treat the symptoms So I really didn't know what to make of his statement.
Btw if taken to the miitary hospitals ,not a good idea they are some of the most filthiest hosptals I've been in, we would have a full blown epidemic in the U.S...

originally posted by: jadedANDcynical

During the 2001–2002 outbreak in Gabon, we observed that several dogs were highly exposed to Ebola virus by eating infected dead animals. To examine whether these animals became infected with Ebola virus, we sampled 439 dogs and screened them by Ebola virus–specific immunoglobulin (Ig) G assay, antigen detection, and viral polymerase chain reaction amplification. Seven (8.9%) of 79 samples from the 2 main towns, 15 (15.2%) of 14 the 99 samples from Mekambo, and 40 (25.2%) of 159 samples from villages in the Ebola virus–epidemic area had detectable Ebola virus–IgG, compared to only 2 (2%) of 102 samples from France. Among dogs from villages with both infected animal carcasses and human cases, seroprevalence was 31.8%. A significant positive direct association existed between seroprevalence and the distances to the Ebola virus–epidemic area. This study suggests that dogs can be infected by Ebola virus and that the putative infection is asymptomatic.

Ebola Virus Antibody Prevalence in Dogs and Human Risk Author affiliations: *Centre International de Recherches Médicales de Franceville, Franceville, Gabon; †Centre Pasteur du Cameroun, Yaoundé, Cameroun; ‡Institut de Recherche pour le Développement, Paris, France

Care to retract the "fear mongering" assertion?

Excellent article. I didn't know about this and so read beyond the abstract:

It is apparent that dogs can carry the virus asymptotically. As to their ability to pass the virus to people we'll read on.

From the paper:

very interesting, speaking of the 'control' group of dogs in France:

Two (2%) of the 102 blood samples from dogs living in France had detectable Ebola virus–reactive IgG (Table 2).

You wonder how that happened.

The rates of ebola positive tests in dogs in 'ebola' areas was higher and one would expect:

Seven of the 79 dogs sampled in Libreville and Port Gentil (8.9% prevalence rate), 15 of the 99 dogs sampled in Mekambo (15.2% prevalence rate), and 40 of the 159 dogs sampled in villages located within the Ebola virus–epidemic area (25.2% prevalence rate) had detectable IgG to Ebola virus antigens

Now we're getting to the meat of the issue, can dogs trasmitt the virus to people:

The prevalence of Ebola virus-reactive IgG among dogs from the villages where humans cases occurred was 27.2%, compared to 22.4% among dogs from villages where no human cases were noted

And here is their conclusion:

Although dogs can be asymptomatically infected, they may excrete infectious viral particles in urine, feces, and saliva for a short period before virus clearance, as observed experimentally in other animals. Given the frequency of contact between humans and domestic dogs, canine Ebola infection must be considered as a potential risk factor for human infection and virus spread.

and...

The virus appears to jump from its natural host to humans only in specific, but unknown, conditions. Seroprevalence rates in dogs might serves as an indicator of Ebola virus in regions in which no animal deaths or human cases have been observed.

It could be a vector or not, the author advises more study.

I learned something new today thank you. I still don't think it's a serious concern - but you mileage and concerns may vary.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I learned something new today thank you. I still don't think it's a serious concern - but you mileage and concerns may vary.

You're quite welcome!

I am fairly certain that this is not a primary mode of transmission, but the very fact that there is a possibility added to how deadly this virus is, is what causes me concern.

We have to be 100% certain with this virus, and if there is even one chance in a couple of hundred thousand that a dog could pass this to another dog or human from this means, it is enough to warrant a closer look, and add another thing to be on the look out for.

At least in my humble and non-formally-educated opinion.

originally posted by: ZIPMATT

It's far too infectious to bring to hospitals . While that may be hard to swallow , on the plus side , people die very quickly of it . Sorry about that .

For the sake of argument.

So we are quarantines in our homes without resources to care for the sick, no means to dispose of infected materials and all in the household succumb to the disease in time a handful survive. Okay so far as that goes - the medieval approach. Got it.

How are the containenanted bodies and materials going to be disposed of? "Bring out your dead" "Bring out containmentated bedding and whatnot".

Is that the world we live in? The dark ages?

Probably so.

If worse comes to worse, before there is a cure, we may have to look at going back to Sanatoriums.

Separate institutions where people are treated, away from the general hospital population, run by dedicated volunteers.

If it comes to that.

originally posted by: planetyeck
a reply to: lovebeck

My wife is a nurse in Dallas (not the same hospital as Mr. Ebola) but she isn't concerned. It all comes down to Universal Precautions which should be implemented whether you have an outbreak of Ebola or not. It's something that all healthcare workers are trained on. Treat every patient as if they were infected and take the proper steps to protect yourself from exposure (gloves, masks, gown...you get the idea). My wife has told horror stories of how nurses, techs etc. get lazy and will not think before they handle a patient (grab soiled linens with their bare hands, wear the same pair of gloves to a different patients room). It's the healthcare worker's responsibility to protect themselves and when done properly they are, in-turn, protecting the community as well.

I think the public, and you, are completely misinformed on what "universal precautions" are, and mean. In fact, based on your reply, I know you are.

Universal precautions are the precautions you take for EVERY ONE, EVERY SINGLE PATIENT, until you don't. I don't wear a mask, gown and gloves into the room for EVERY PATIENT, just those, who are in, say, contact precautions because they have a history of MRSA or respiratory contact precautions because they have EV-68, certain pneumonias, etc. If you suspect something, send certain tests, etc, you put the patient in isolation until it is ruled out. Or in. You wear gloves when handling blood and body fluids for everyone, but a mask and gown aren't usually needed unless someone is infected with something, then the other gear comes into play.

Ebola is an entirely different ball game and using "universal precautions" in order to prevent 1. The spread of it to others and 2. To protect health care workers from getting it (and likely giving it to others, because let's face it, it's not like any hospital gives nurses enough sick time each year) is not only a joke, but totally asinine.

Like I said before, the US health care and hospital systems, in the event of an outbreak, is not going to provide fit testing, training, and also equip EVERY health care worker in each facility with those fancy respirator type haz-mat suits, which is what is shown, everyday, in every frame of the media, workers who are "dealing" with Ebola wearing.

Kudos your wife is a nurse. I guess. But, if she thinks that universal precautions are enough to protect her, other patients and even you and yours from coming down with Ebola, she's either been taught wrong or works a cream-puff princess type nursing job where she doesn't get dirty much.


If there is one thing I can say about myself, 100% absolute truth about myself, it's that I am a DAMN good nurse. I could have been a doctor, surgeon, rocket scientist, anything I wanted, I have the smarts, the brains AND common sense. I became what I always wanted to be, a nurse. I don't come from a long line of nurses in my family. My 99 year old great aunt was a nurse, that's the only other one in my family.

I'm the nurse you'd want taking care of you, the one you don't forget even years after your hospital stay. I know hat about myself, and I have no problem tooting my own horn when I need to make that clear. Would it be easy for me to just up and leave the profession I love SO much, the only "thing" I have ever done? Absolutely not!

However, I care about my family more than my profession. More than myself. I'm not going to put some suit wearing honcho's "recommendations" (who hasn't worn a pair of scrubs since maybe the 80's) ahead of their safety and health. I'm just not, and neither would a ton of other nurses and health care workers.

a reply to: lovebeck

How can we possibly handle a nearly incurable and highly contagious plague in a densely populated and highly mobile society?

a reply to: Aduro

Eww. Horrible thing to happen to you. Don't know what your protocols are but one might perhaps be to pull over and stop and even remove him from the ambulance until he understands that even though sick, he has to behave. If a patient knows before even getting in the ambulance exactly what you planned to do to him and solicit his cooperation, it might help to lower resistance and up the cooperation level. No judgement here, just trying to think constructively.

The thing that people fail to understand, (again I'm in Canada), is that once you enter the Emergency Services, their right to refuse treatment stops. Emergency Services call all the shots, which can be quite unnerving. At least that's how it is up here, so communication is vital.

originally posted by: aboutface
a reply to: Aduro

Eww. Horrible thing to happen to you. Don't know what your protocols are but one might perhaps be to pull over and stop and even remove him from the ambulance until he understands that even though sick, he has to behave. If a patient knows before even getting in the ambulance exactly what you planned to do to him and solicit his cooperation, it might help to lower resistance and up the cooperation level. No judgement here, just trying to think constructively.

The thing that people fail to understand, (again I'm in Canada), is that once you enter the Emergency Services, their right to refuse treatment stops. Emergency Services call all the shots, which can be quite unnerving. At least that's how it is up here, so communication is vital.

You obviously don't have to deal with HCAHPS in Canada.

Sorry. Insider joke. I couldn't resist.

a reply to: lovebeck

This is a completely different type of beastie we may have to deal with here, and the standard operating procedures are not going to be very effective in stopping it in its tracks.

If this virus takes hold, our two worse enemies will be fear and ignorance. I think people would probably learn more from watching a movie like "Contagion" then listening to the MSM.

Educate yourself, shelve the fear, and and make a plan. Personally, I think that it will be more difficult to ride this thing out alone. I strongly believe working with a good, strong, educated, equipped and prepared communal group, greatly improves everyone's chances of surviving a crisis. I know that many people believe in the isolationist or lone wolf paradigm, to each his own.

Either way, it is not going to be business as usual and it is not going to do us much service in the end to have sacrificed are best and brightest on the learning curve.

Again, just my humble opinion.

a reply to: lovebeck

If things get bad where are you going to hide.

Better get some of that colloidal silver in the spray bottle, some inject-able super high dose Vit. C, you know that's how those hemorrhagic's kill people, it depletes all your vit. C, then the person just bleed to death as their body melts away.

Hope everything works out, but has our government got a plan for us. Hope not, Thomas Jefferson, said if someone tells you they want to help you, run like Hell.

Let me know if you think I'm wong, that is my name Whaf Wong.