A Simple Question for ATS - Who is the Lord of the OT?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Aside from your interpretation of First and Last Adam, where else does the bible indicate that Jesus was Adam. The title son of God is very generic.

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.”

The subject is the Redeemer. The root of the trouble lies in him, but don't hound him. Why? He was the Last Adam and Redeemer.

Job did not require a sacrifice at the end of the Book. Why? He knew the identity of the Redeemer. Everyone else required a sacrifice. Job's was ended. He was perfected in suffering and recognized the Son for who he was. Adam.

A root is where the plant begins. Love your enemies. There is a reason for this.

a reply to: MamaJ

I believe you have it right exactly. In essence, the Lord is the image of man below. Our higher nature is the the image of God above. Between, we see ourselves by both reflections. God cleans the image and redeems us by showing us both sides. We choose the side to abide in. Either we love the Lord who rules or the God that loves. By his love, we need no ruler. It's the one law that needs no regulations or punishments.

I think you have provided the right answer to this thread.

Is it possible we have made the Lord in our image, just as God created us in His? Once we realize the difference, we seek love rather than the division below. Interesting. I like your answer the best.

I am satisfied and will ponder this for some time.

a reply to: AlephBet

See... I didn't say Luke was "out"... Luke is suspicious only because he was associated with Paul...

Luke says specifically he interviewed people for the information he got about Jesus, and his book is one of the synoptic gospels because the information lines up with the other two... but you'll also notice there are a good many things mentioned in Lukes gospel that appear no where else... Tis a bit darker then the other two

Its suspicious because Luke being associated with Paul so very closely would make it very easy for Paul to add what he wanted...

Aside from Pauls view on love, which is far and away the most brilliant description of it in the entire book... Yes his books are out... unquestionably the OT is out, though I do like Psalm and proverbs

And revelation is out as well...

Best Idea all in all... stick with the words of Jesus... ye can't go wrong

a reply to: AlephBet

Job 19: 28 “If you say, ‘How shall we persecute him?’ And ‘What pretext for a case against him can we find?’ 29 “Then be afraid of the sword for yourselves, For wrath brings the punishment of the sword, So that you may know there is judgment.”

This passage has nothing to do with the "root of trouble" existing in Jesus. This is a rebuke to those who seek to persecute the Messiah. It was a forshadowing of Jesus' trial.

The Sadducees and Pharisees sought to persecute Jesus, but found no fault in Him, so they criticized and accused Him every step of the way.

All who seek to slander Jesus will meet violent end, just as Job stated.

And Job was not made clean by his own suffering. He needed the blood of Christ just like you and I. Its by Jesus' suffering that we are forgiven.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Sigh... you Christians and your love for Pauls words

Job didn't say a thing about Jesus in the entire book...

And we are forgiven IF we forgive others... Not by Jesus' suffering... read the gospels man

Or perhaps Jesus was lying?

*shakes his head*

a reply to: AlephBet

Hello AlephBet, and may Peace be with you.

We must remember that Abrahamic monotheism did not establish itself immediately nor independently. It was a gradual evolution and syncretism of the pantheons and religions of the Canaanites, Phoenicians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Hittites, and Hurrians. These belief systems have parallels, counterparts, and similarities with the religions and pantheons of their surrounding vicinities, and the areas encircling those, and furthermore throughout all global culture.


The Old Testament points toward a polytheistic pantheon, when the Hebrew words for "God", "Lord", "Most High", and "Mighty" are considered in such verses as Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Psalm 82, Psalm 89, Psalm 29:1etc.


Archeology and the OT itself testifies to the polytheistic nature of the Hebrew Israelites and the Levantines. From the worship of Molech, Asherah, and the Golden Calf,... to the theological discrepancies between the Yahwists and Elohists.


Many tend to believe that the various Hebrew names of "God" found in the OT are referring to the same God, with some being used as titles, qualities, attributes, and that some names are universally neutral words for "Creator Deity." At face-value, this seems reasonable and logical. However, when we consider the religions and pantheons of the Levant and the neighboring cultures, we find a more enriched understanding of the different Hebrew names found in the OT.


We see that the pantheons of the land of Judea, Israel, Near-East, and Mid-East contain a hierarchy consisting of El Elyon, followed by El (Tor El / Bull El), and then followed by Baal Hadad who is YHWH.


Furthermore, we find references and evidences such as "El and his Asherah", and "Yahweh and his Asherah", and "Baal and Baalat". We find all of these Hebrew names in the OT, being quite consistent with the mythologies and symbology of the Canaanite religion.


This pantheon greatly mirrors the Greco-Roman pantheons of Uranus/Caelus, father of Cronus/Saturn, father of Zeus/Jupiter.


Regarding the Sumerian religion, many tales of Enki and Enlil mirror that of "God" in the OT (Creation of Man, Babeled Language, Great Flood, etc.). If we consider that Marduk, son of Enki absorbed the powers, qualities, and attributes of both Enlil and Enki,... we see that this pantheon also corresponds to the Canaanite pantheon: An/Anu (El Elyon), followed by Enlil (El), followed by Marduk (Yahweh).


We also find cross-cultural references to the patriarchal God's battle and triumph over the great water serpent/dragon:

(Yahweh & Leviathan)
(Yam & Baal)
([Ea-Abzu] Enki & Dragon Kur)
(Marduk & Tiamat)
(Teshub & Illuyanka)
(Zeus & Typhon)


The parallels can not be ignored.









Although much esoteric wisdom and knowledge lay veiled in the Bible,... the "Lord" of the OT is a conglomeration of the local and neighboring pantheons and religions of the Hebrew Israelites. False gods of control based upon cosmology and elemental, seasonal, planetary, and psychological archetypes.


Jesus was a simple and humble altruistic philosopher,... an anointed Christ,... an awakened being,... an enlightened master,... and a Buddha. He came to teach the "Good News" of the triumph over suffering through love, compassion, non-judgementalism, introspection and positivity of the inner self, as well as awakening to the reality that "The Kingdom of God is within you," (Luke17:20-21),... meaning; the Divine is within everything, outside of everything, transcendent of everything, and everything emanates from the Divine. One is All and All is One. However, Emperor Constantine and the powerful/influential adepts of the Greco-Roman and Oriental 'Mystery Religions' who held sway over the early Christian sects infiltrated, corrupted, and usurped the original message of enlightenment and self-empowerment of Jesus. The beauty of Jesus' message deteriorated into a Sun-worshipping mystery cult.









The Absolute can not be named, properly explained, nor intellectually understood. The "One That Is All" and "That Which Is" can only be experienced and known by personal gnosis.

"Yea, there is That which is the End-of-understanding, the That which thou must understand with flower of mind.

For should’st thou turn thy mind inwards on It, and understand It as understanding "something," thou shalt not understand It.

Indeed there is no need of strain in understanding This; but thou should’st have the vision of thy soul in purity, turned from aught else, so as to make thy mind, empty [of all things else], attentive to that End, in order that thou mayest learn that End-of-understanding; for It subsists beyond the mind."

- Chaldean Oracles

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders."

- Tao Te Ching

a reply to: Murgatroid

There's a lot of things wrong with the links you shared.

Neo-platonism is not Baal Worship. Baal was a fertility god associated with agriculture (the land). He was not considered to be the creator of the entire universe (called "The One" in Neo-platonism). There is a distinction made between "The One" (The Source of Life and The Creator of The Universe) and "the gods" (lower beings with different personalities - what Christians would call angels or demons).

Gnosticism is not about worshiping satan. Jesus says you cannot serve two master, you can either choose God or mammon (which means money/wealth in Aramaic) - Luke 16:13/ Matthew 6:24, so satan is associated with material goods and God with The Spirit (Love), so if Gnostics are fasting, doing charity, and some being celibate and doing whatever they can to be less materialistic (and therefore more connected To The Spirit) then they are not worshiping satan.

Worshiping satan would mean, to Gnostics, and to those who believed Jesus in Luke 16:13 and Matthew 6:24 , serving money, doing whatever a person can for material pleasures (especially money).

a reply to: AlephBet

Jesus is the Lord, and he is also Adam in the story? Is he eve and the serpent also?

I don't agree with your alpha omega first adam last adam comparison.

Adam and Eve didn't come around until the 6th day according to most peoples understanding of the creation stories. The image of God is the alpha and was around for at least 5 days before adam, as all things were created by and for him.

Adam is an anti type of Jesus, not is Jesus. He came into the dead world and brought life. The chaos that existed in our minds in regards to God. He never says, I killed all those people, I'm sorry I was a childish god. He says "no you have it wrong, God is not like that, this is what He's like. He does not look exactly like ALL THE OTHER GODS IN HISTORY. He is only good only loving. Stop attributing evil to God, it is your confused minds that misunderstood God. But I'm revealing what God looks like, you will be his child if you love and forgive like he does"

This doesn't negate the entire OT, or YHWH for that matter. Its just that it must be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, which brings life to the killing letter. Life not death. God did not change, just our understanding of who God is. We are the ones growing up. We couldn't comprehend what was going on, because only in Christ is that veil taken away.

a reply to: Sahabi

originally posted by: Sahabi
we see that this pantheon also corresponds to the Canaanite pantheon: An/Anu (El Elyon), followed by Enlil (El), followed by Marduk (Yahweh).

There are two problems with this. Elyon (translated as "Most High" in The English translations of The Bible) was known as "The Compassionate God of Mercy", "The Kindly One".

Even before Jesus Christ demonstrated The Love/Mercy of "The Most High", Elyon was already known for his Compassion and he said this in ancient texts before the Bible:

"War is against my wish; Plant the seeds of peace in the heart of the earth."

The only problem is, they worshiped him among other gods. If they needed war, they would worship their war god yahweh-saboath their god of heavenly hosts (heavenly army).

Anu, as far as I know, was not Compassionate (they say he used humans as slaves) and he did not refuse to be a part of war (the war with Enki/Enlil, etc.).

In acient times, the tribe of yahweh and marduk were at war with each other. If yahweh and marduk were the same, and they were both ok with war, wouldn't it make since for yahweh/marduk to combine these religions for more war and power against others rather than getting them to kill each other?

originally posted by: Sahabi
Although much esoteric wisdom and knowledge lay veiled in the Bible,... the "Lord" of the OT is a conglomeration of the local and neighboring pantheons and religions of the Hebrew Israelites. False gods of control based upon cosmology and elemental, seasonal, planetary, and psychological archetypes.

The word for 'lord' in English was actually translated from the name yahweh most of the time. Yahweh is a leader ("lord") a warrior (war god). Even the old testament admits this (Exodus 15:3).

originally posted by: Sahabi
Jesus was a simple and humble altruistic philosopher,... an anointed Christ,... an awakened being,... an enlightened master,... and a Buddha.

Jesus was not just a "Buddha'. Buddha means enlightened one. The name Jesus (Yeshu) means Salvation. Jesus was salvation for those deceived by false gods. His Salvation was to show people The Truth (that God is associated with Love and Forgiveness - not wars) because Truth sets you Free, and guess where Jesus was born? In the Jerusalem where they believed in the old testament and worshiped yahweh.

originally posted by: Sahabi
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders."
- Tao Te Ching

Tao Te Ching was written before Christ.
We now know of The Spirit that flows through Life: Love.

"The Way is The Spirit and The Spirit is Eternal Life.
The Name is Love and it is The Eternal Name.
Love is The Creator of The Universe (Heaven and Earth).
There is judgment which labels everything.
Without selfishness you are in The Flow/Tao/Spirit more.
With selfishness (lack of love) you only see the physical.
The Spirit and The Physical are together but with different names.
Love (The Spirit) is The Unity (The Mystery)
The Love of Love (Spirit), The door to many miracles."

a reply to: Sahabi

Thank you for that. I have read all these perspectives before, as well as the Eastern literature. The Tao, Dhammapada, Rumi and Confucius are my favorites. There is a common thread running through them all, but not necessarily what we might first assume. No doubt, most people will never realize any of it until they start over again, and again, and again...

The real truth is in the pattern of nature replanting itself as something new through a cycle of birth and death. Judgment is between. This is just what we would expect of a simulation running to improve itself one piece at a time. When you compare the names of the principalities, you get one central theme. The powers above are programmed and reprogrammed to try new things in cycles. Each name governs an area of the world by a different approach than the last. We still see this today. Nations rise and fall, each different from the last. I say simulation, but the one that learns is not God. The one that learns is the entity participating in the simulation. Nature is invariant and always reflects a Holy source. Only the translation of that source changes. In other words, the ones that participate are the ones learning. God already knows. Who is God? The one unnamed. He can only be implied by the rest.

I did a word study on the letters of the Spirit of God as compared to the words white, horse and donkey. Although these seem unrelated, they are one the same wavelength of root form. They are the same branch of meaning. When you examine them against the story, for instance, of Jesus riding in on the donkey, then the white horse, you get one message related to the spirit, as well as Abraham mating with his wife and the slave girl Hagar. Seed mixes in two branches. Cycles of time build up the pearl; sheep graze in the pasture developing a coat of wool and so on. This is the key to seeing the aftereffects of our history in cycles. The Spirit is working in many layers, not just on mankind. Powers and principalities are also cycling in time. All of it running to a conclusion that will then be judged and remade. Simulations run and then reengage as something new from the past pattern. This is what we would expect of Word (information) running as a program.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Go back to my very first thread: Hidden in the Letters The letters are the key to see the rest. The true word is written by the letters and the letters are universal and unchanging. Combine them to any name, but the letters themselves are the invariant root of the central theme they convey. If truth is anywhere, it is there. From the letters, all other documents, powers, principalities and names emerge.

I ask the question in this thread, "Who is the Lord," and we continually get the same answer. To know who they/it is/are, we need to know where they derive their powers and authority. That answer is always the Aleph Bet (Father). Programming is the answer and letters are the authority over the names. Behind the letters, you have the true God. He is the master architect and programmer running each name in a cycle of simulation. His Spirit presides over each aspect as an observer and judge only. Each name is engaged for a time, then remade. Like all of us, we are involved in a state of inconscience to remove duplicity. Involution and evolution (baptism) requires that we are free from duplicity. Deity or man, we are all the same. Amnesia and amnesty are the same word.

The template / temple for all of this programming and simulation is the Son of God, or Kosmos. I tend to see this more from the Hermetic perspective. Read the Corpus Hermeticum or the Virgin of the World and the key to the understanding of consciousness emerges.

The Watchers (observers) roam the universe examining the mind of God for eternity. Every life reveals a new aspect of our own natures by comparison. We judge ourselves, then remake the image of the next path we wander. Each time we involve, we evolve. Translational symmetry of the invariant symmetry of physics.

a reply to: Akragon

You know, I dont think you would believe the truth if Jesus Himself came down and told you.

a reply to: deadeyedick

The "womb" will never dry up. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, everything is energy at the most fundamental level including matter/Mother/womb, so in my opinion reincarnation is most certainly guaranteed and is what the bible means by eternal life, only it has been veiled by symbolism and allegory.

Double post.

While writing another thread, I used a quote from the book of Jubilees. Reading the verses again, I came across a name for the chief of spirits. His name is Mastêmâ in the texts, giving Satan power over 10% of the malignant spirits. Do a bit of research, I found that this angel is something from Jewish tradition. It is interesting to compare the Lord of Hosts to the description of Mastêmâ as the Chief of Spirits.

Just thought I would add this as we seek to answer the question of the Lord's identity, as if we needed more to consider.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1 Yes it will be barren just as it was in the begining. It is a path of birst not the only path to birth. It is a punishment and will be paid in full soon. There is another way. I promise you i do not just post this stuff to be contrary.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

You know, I dont think you would believe the truth if Jesus Himself came down and told you.

Are you saying you believe Pauls words over Jesus?

Sure is what it sounds like... and it wouldn't surprise me honestly

IF that actually happened he would either confirm what is written about him, or deny it... and probably laugh at you people who prefer Paul

Til then i'll stick with what he purportedly said...

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

You know, I dont think you would believe the truth if Jesus Himself came down and told you.

Are you saying you believe Pauls words over Jesus?

Sure is what it sounds like... and it wouldn't surprise me honestly

IF that actually happened he would either confirm what is written about him, or deny it... and probably laugh at you people who prefer Paul

Til then i'll stick with what he purportedly said...

I will say this about Paul though, even though he converted, he forgot the one teaching "you reap what you sow". If you sow to destruction you will reap the whirlwind. That's why I don't feel sympathy for Paul's afflictions because he never said anything about that. He never admitted that his own persecution was from his direct involvement with persecuting Christians.

The same thing happens today, Christians who only read what Paul says have this idea that no matter what they did or are currently doing will have direct consequence or that they must not be accountable for their actions. Paul never addressed that part and then people came along and gave him a blanket justification under the guise of grace, by thinking that grace supplants the destruction.

Stephen was stoned to death while Saul watched, but did Paul say that you reap what you sow? It is a fundamental law, the Law of Reciprocity, that was established by God. While Paul had many good things to say, this one point of only mentioning what he did before, but not apologizing for it, just means he got what he deserved.

Christians today want to be able to do what they want and never be accountable for it, but the law still stands...you reap what you sow. If you sow to destruction, you will reap the whirlwind.

He had no right to complain and that's the issue I have with Paul. And then Paul attacks Peter, why? Simply because Peter was doing it differently. Peter didn't go around persecuting people but you don't hear Peter complaining about troubles. In fact, the very night he denied Christ, he repented and wept bitterly.

I guess I must be a Jesus Firster, then a Peterist. I take what Peter says over Paul. And I take what Jesus said over Peter, but at least Peter repented and didn't complain.

a reply to: WarminIndy You reap what you sow is not a law or a commandment. I do hold out hope that it eventually comes to all but many walk amoung us and many have lived long lives reaping where they did not sow and that includes jesus in the parable of talents. go get my money ye fools

a reply to: AlephBet

My brother its been awhile, Who is the Lord of The OT?

The Lord is Jesus (Yeshau) because he was with the father and the one who comes down to see things and is the messenger of the father. The voice of the father is far to much for a mortal man to hear and so he uses a vessel to speak to man and so he lowers himself so that we may hear. Like you said he was learning as any child would and with that mistakes are often made. In the gnostic gospel and in particular "In the infancy of Jesus" we see a Jesus who is just as fierce and Loving and a creator who is the same in the OT and could it be that he angers when the world that was created is being destroyed by us.

Chapter II.

2 Causes a boy to wither who broke down his fish pools, 6 partly restores him, 7 dills another boy, 16 causes blindness to fall on his accusers, 18 for which Joseph pulls him by the ear.

BESIDES this, the son of Anna the scribe was standing there with Joseph, and took a bough of a willow tree, and scattered the waters which Jesus had gathered into lakes.

2 But the boy Jesus seeing what he had done, became angry, and said to him, Thou fool, what harm did the lake do thee, that thou shouldest scatter the water?

3 Behold, now thou shalt wither as a tree, and shalt not bring forth either leaves, or branches, or fruit.

4 And immediately he became withered all over.

5 Then Jesus went away home. But the parents of the boy who was withered, lamenting the misfortune of his youth, took and carried him to Joseph, accusing him, and said, Why dost thou keep a son who is guilty of such actions?

6 Then Jesus at the request of all who were present did heal him, leaving only some small member to continue withered, that they might take warning.

7 ¶ Another time Jesus went forth into the street, and a boy running by, rushed upon his shoulder;

8 At which Jesus being angry, said to him, thou shalt go no farther.

9 And he instantly fell down dead:

The fact is MAN can NOT know the creator God through “books”…..babel.The language has been confused(babel) and it has never been unconfused it is why a man cannot see the Truth only their own truth of “their “religion.

The fact is Yahoshua did not “fail” in his teachings because ..he was NOT teaching….he only proclaimed(preached) by stating the Truth.Yahoshua clearly stated to the disciples it was given ONLY to the disciples to “know” the mysteries of their ouranos however even when they were “given” it they did not perceive it until later.They NEVER taught it after they “knew” either however the religious carnal mind “believes” they did and twisted it into a religion…Christianity…by perverting the Truth and making their “beliefs” into the doctrines of men.Yahoshua stated how this works and what happens.

“If you then, being evil, know how to GIVE good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in the ouranos [heavens] give good things to them that ask him?”

Yahoshua was stating to the DISCIPLES.They were GIVEN to know the mysteries of the ouranos .Matthew 7 is a continuance of one event(called the sermon on the mount ) back to Matthew 5.At the beginning he said..

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy[the law and the prophets], but to fulfill[sum].”

Yahoshua then stated in Matthew 7…” So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

He then stated how this would be summed /fulfilled.

Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and wide is the way, that leads to destruction, and MANY there be which go in there:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

ALL of mankind is the MANY…. the disciples were the chosen FEW(and still are) They ALONE are the first fruitS of the first FRUIT(the seed).They ALONE entered in the strait gate because they were on the wide way of “their religion” (like the many)which is WHAT Yahoshua destroyed…not the sum of the Law and the Prophets.After he made this statement in Matthew 5 he disseminated what the “Jew” believed the law and the prophets(men of old) were.

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’But I say to you ……”

They were clearly very very wrong in what they believed the law and the prophets were.They wanted to “follow” them like a “rule” book but they couldn’t so they made a BIGGER rule book(the 613 ordinances) and multiplied their bad seed of “their” religion.The BOOK has grown so BIG Christianity believe the wide gate is “the eternal punishment of hell” and THEY are the chosen few(2 billion out of 6 billion presently) yet Yahoshua says:

“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.You'll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can't produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. very tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. you'll recognize them by their fruit”.

The disciples are the good fruit.The same good fruit produced by the seed in the fertile soil of the parable of the soils and seed.They ALONE produce 30,60,100 fold.It is the “many” that say:

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven(their ouranos], but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.On that day many will say to Me, Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’Then I will announce to them, I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'

From Matthew 5 to Matthew 7 is all one statement.The DISCIPLES are the good tree(Yahoshua is reiterating the parable of the soils and seed).The DISCIPLES are the only ones that were GIVEN to know the mysteries of their ouranos and be freed from their religion.The ouranos is the “good fruit that will be produced not RELIGION that is the thistles and thorns.Within a short amount of time the religious carnal mind of man took what Yahoshua and the disciples stated/proclaimed and perverted it into “their “religion.John wrote of the first wave and called them “antichrists”.Yahoshua told the disciples that nothing but robbers and thieves came before him and will come after:

“In that day MANY will come in MY NAME and say ‘they are “christ”[Christians] and deceive MANY”.

Mans religion is an infectious disease passed from one person to the next en masse as a “Belief System”.It is the “nature” of mankind to be ‘religious”.It is ALL they can do…believe.The scriptures call it “sin”.The religious believe their “religion” is the cure for sin yet it is the cause and they can NOT know the Truth (the creator God) until the creator God destroys their religion(forgiveness…. freedom from bondage)

The question is not “who” do you believe is the “Lord of the OT”(because ALL belief of the creator God is false) it is WHO do you “say” Yahoshua is.When you “know” who the Son is then you know who the Father is and it will ALL come by revelation “from” the Father and by no other source.