A Simple Question for ATS - Who is the Lord of the OT?

The dilemma man finds themselves in is answered by the multitude of falsities they “believe”.They “believe”knowledge of the creator God comes from “study”of books and methods and self examinations and pious religious acts etc etc…when none of that is Truth.The knowledge of the creator God only comes by revelation FROM the creator God .Man will NEVER “find” the Truth of the creator God by looking they will only find what they seek(what you believe)…The only seeking that is profitable is the Kingdom of the creator God (knowing the creator God by revelation) then ALL things will be added to it.

The scriptures are a “testimony” that testifies of the Truth…that does NOT mean the words in them (and especially the interpretations of those words which are nothing more than babel..confusion) are THE Truth.The Israelites and the Jews were a stiff necked,corrupt people.They projected themselves onto the creator God and made the creator God in their own image.The God they “believed” in and worshiped was a false God made in their own corrupt image and is just as true today.Man can only “believe” in “their God” they cannot “know” the creator God by their religion.

As long as you believe the bible is the “word of God” you will not “know “ God at all.All of you searching/studying has been in vain.You have only found what YOU want to..which is your religion.The creator God gives the religious carnal mind of man over to a strong delusion that they would believe lies..The fact is the creator God can NOT be known by belief in religion yet billions believe it can because “the bible(and a multitude of other sources) tells them so”.Only when the creator God “forgives”(which means freed from bondage NOT pardoned of guilt) can a person know.As Yahoshua told some Jews that “believed” in him.

If you continue in my word[hear/perceive… have it revealed] you will truly be my disciple THEN you will KNOW the Truth and THEN the truth will make you “free”(forgiven”).

Yahoshua NEVER said he “believed” in the creator God the Father he said I “know” the father and ALWAYS “hear” and only do what the Father does and says.He told the disciples that it had been given to ONLY them to “know” the mysteries of their ouranos(heavens).That “giving”(forgiveness) was ONLY through revelation not through study or searching the scriptures.He said so when he asked the disciples who the people said he was.They said the people say you are a prophet (from the scriptures).Then he said but who do YOU say I am.Simon Peter said the Son of the living(creator) God,the christ [the anointing].

Yahoshua did not say “blessed” are you Simon Peter because you have “searched" and studied the scriptures and keep the commandments etc etc.. he said blessed are you because “flesh and blood”did NOT reveal it to you but it was my Father in your ouranos [heavens]

The creator God can ONLY be known by revelation FROM the creator God.Books or religion or methods or mysticism or philosophy or psychology or science or ANYTHING will reveal who the creator God the Father is.

a reply to: Snarl

Best I can do without getting carried away. Here's a question for you though. Your exclusive opinion ... no scholarly consensus, please. Why did Nadab and Abihu die before the Lord? *What* is "strange fire" and why are those words changed-up so frequently between texts? PM is fine.

When people are In the presence of the Lord, it means more to him to be seen as Holy than anything else. "Then they shall know I am holy," is what he says continually. Of course, there are other places in the Bible that elude to the fact that no one can stand in the presence of God and live. With the Lord, special incense does the trick, but it goes deeper than this. His desire is for man to treat his presence as sacred. In the book of Enoch, the Angels asked Enoch to pray for them to God for forgiveness. God's answer was that they should be praying for men and not other way around. This is a GIANT contrast to what we see of the Lord. The Lord smites those who get out of line.

Some say their sons were drunk:

Lev 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (see also Eze 44:21)
Lev 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; (see also Eze 44:23)
Lev 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

Like Revelation 17 and the drunken whore with a cup in her hand, she sees no difference between what is holy and what is profane. It's a comparison to the Church today. The Lord has a very low toleration for sin, contrasted by mankind that lives 70 years and must be reborn with new memories, learning and understanding. One of the benefits of being a deity is the fact that you have all your memories, you live forever and you know it all. Men are not so lucky. It's a wonder we can get by at all.

To me, this is yet another reason that I ask the question, "Who is the Lord?" He has no patience or compassion for those he rules. It's all about him. What was Jesus all about? Loving others. Service and compassion were the hallmark of his ministry, refusing to lash out at the aggression against him.

a reply to: AlephBet

What is so complicated?

You already know the answer... the OT lord was not God...

Read this when you have a bit of time...

www.gnosis.org...

Firstly, when you say Old Testament, we’re really talking about a collection of books, which at one time, were not put into one complete book…

Secondly, there’s a clear dichotomy going on, in many areas, throughout many of the individual books within the Old Testament, as we know it today in regards to Gods Character.

Thirdly, Jesus quotes some of the Old Testament Prophets like Isaiah, Moses and Hosea etc…which means Jesus clearly believed those prophets spoke truth about God, which is why he quoted them. But this doesn’t mean he condoned every evil action perpetrated in other books, found in the OT…because I’m sure he wouldn’t, it’s just not in his character…

I personally think that many of the atrocities committed in the Old Testament, really came from men abusing their power and position, by murdering people and telling others that God commanded it etc…and by adding too Gods’ Laws, such as stoning people to death…which IMO never came from God but only from men; God knew this would happen, this is why Jesus had to come to fulfill Gods Laws, as was prophesied, so that people could separate, what came from God, from what came from men…


Because of those evil atrocities committed in the name of God and because of the general Hypocrisy of the Pharisees; this is the reason why Jesus told them in John 8, that they “belonged to their Father the Devil”, not because the Old Testament God is evil, but because men were not following the one true God, but were instead following their own evil ways…

Take a look at these verses below…

Jesus acknowledges in the verse below that the Pharisees were Abraham’s descendants…this is crucial, in connection to the next verse further down…

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.

So on the one hand Jesus is saying they are Abraham’s decedents, and on the other hand, He’s saying they were not following what Abraham did…and that they were clearly not following God either…

The next verse is pretty crucial, in trying to understand what’s going on here…

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

So Jesus is clearly tying himself in, with the God that Abraham believed in, in the sentence I’ve highlighted above…but he also does the exact same thing, just by quoting other prophets in the OT…

The problem that most people have, is that they’re roping all the evil deeds and misunderstandings about Gods Character (which only Jesus revealed (John 1:18…)), that really came from men IMO, and are putting them ALL onto the God of the OT…

And another key aspect, is that Jesus fulfilled the Law. Jesus really only teaches about the Ten Commandments throughout his ministry, and those Commandments came from the God of the OT…


- JC

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

For Jesus to be fully man, he would be required to be born again (Baptism). It would only make sense that Jesus were YHVH from the OT if he were in a fallen state at that time. When God said well done at his baptism, then this would be the first time his heart was fully humbled before His Father. To me, this is the only logical answer. I tend to agree, but not in the same manner as you. The Son of God was being raised by God (Father). The body below was the mind above, just as it is today. The Mind of the Lord, if he were the Son of God, would then be the shadow left in the Bible. As all of us are from this loaf of bread, then the Bible is the chronicle of all of us combined. Literally, we judge the Lord and judge ourselves if we fail to realize that he is our higher nature combined. We, who are many, are one loaf (1 Cor. 10).

I have given this answer before on here. It is my best guess as to who the Lord is. He is the Son growing up.

Who is the Lord? Likely the Son of God being raised. First, he was a prodigal. Next, he proclaimed himself God. Next, God humbled the Son and the Son returned home. It's the parable of the Prodigal.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: AlephBet

What is so complicated?

You already know the answer... the OT lord was not God...

Read this when you have a bit of time...

www.gnosis.org...

My best answer is in the post above. I think he was the Son of God being raised. Prodigal that returned. Clearly, Jesus was not God in the NT. There is a Father Son relationship that Jesus speaks of often. He is subservient to the Father. The most likely version of who the Lord is would be the Son of God being raised by a Father. We, who are many, are his body (one loaf of bread). When we judge the Lord, we judge ourselves. Just as Jesus said.

a reply to: Joecroft

Thirdly, Jesus quotes some of the Old Testament Prophets like Isaiah, Moses and Hosea etc…which means Jesus clearly believed those prophets spoke truth about God, which is why he quoted them. But this doesn’t mean he condoned every evil action perpetrated in other books, found in the OT…because I’m sure he wouldn’t, it’s just not in his character…

This only makes sense if Jesus as the Son of God is the same as YHVH. YHVH was the Son that had yet to be approved by God. The Son coming out of the Baptismal pool with John was then the risen Son being humbled by the Father. I continue to see this as the only answer.

a reply to: AlephBet

Well I will say I've heard this before IF it is what you're saying...

Jesus was not the lord in the OT...

In fact I find the very thought one of the most disgusting, horrifying and repulsive thoughts I could possibly think of...

a reply to: Joecroft

Because of those evil atrocities committed in the name of God and because of the general Hypocrisy of the Pharisees; this is the reason why Jesus told them in John 8, that they “belonged to their Father the Devil”, not because the Old Testament God is evil, but because men were not following the one true God, but were instead following their own evil ways…

Take a look at these verses below…

Jesus acknowledges in the verse below that the Pharisees were Abraham’s descendants…this is crucial, in connection to the next verse further down…

The fact that Jesus defeated his lower nature (YHVH) indicates to me that he was showing that the men of Israel were clinging to that previous error. If it is true that all of humanity is a product of the Son of God, then we reflect His image perfectly. We judge the Lord of the OT and end up judging our own previous actions. Jesus was showing them a change was needed.

The frightening part of this comes when you realize that Jesus took the throne in Heaven 2000 years ago and mankind has not improved at all. We have used up the Earth and are still barbarians, even those of us who claim to be civilized. No nation is free from using others for gain. Nothing has changed. Still the same Earth; still the same mindset of objectivism. The enemies are made the footstool, but at the expense of the entire Earth's welfare. Not much has changed. Poor leadership is still punished by harming the people who know no better.

My point is to note that the Son of God has not made the impact on the majority of humanity that might have been hoped. Why? No one knows what the word of God says. We are all still completely blinded. 2000 years and the education from the teacher has only shown us how badly we fail. I think there was nothing wrong with the education, but in the reception of communication.

Communication reflects the response you get. If it is true that the Lord is the Son, then Babel was the fault of the ones in charge. It still plagues us today. Fear engaged the decision. The Lord made a statement at the tower of Babel that is telling of his foreknowledge.

Genesis 11

5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the people had built. 6 The Lord said, “Now, these people are united, all speaking the same language. This is only the beginning of what they will do. They will be able to do anything they want. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not be able to understand each other.”

Education would have been the best option. Instead, we were dumbed-down even more. I assume there were other reasons, but as usual, other reasons are not given. Simple answers with no commentary.

a reply to: AlephBet

There are some problems here.

First: Elohim
Second: Adonai Elohim
Third: YWHW.

The Bible states that from Adam's time, Elohim created the earth, but Adonai Elohim walked and spoke with Adam. To Abraham, he was called Adonai Elohim, but only to Moses did He become YWHW.

The YWHW is merely "the four letters" that mean "I AM".

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: AlephBet

Well I will say I've heard this before IF it is what you're saying...

Jesus was not the lord in the OT...

In fact I find the very thought one of the most disgusting, horrifying and repulsive thoughts I could possibly think of...

A Son must be raised. If we are the image of God, then the main objective of a Father below is raising a family. Why would we choose to believe God is different. He is the one that created that image for us to practice. This is how the image in a mirror of ourselves works.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: AlephBet

There are some problems here.

First: Elohim
Second: Adonai Elohim
Third: YWHW.

The Bible states that from Adam's time, Elohim created the earth, but Adonai Elohim walked and spoke with Adam. To Abraham, he was called Adonai Elohim, but only to Moses did He become YWHW.

The YWHW is merely "the four letters" that mean "I AM".

The consciousness of mankind. We judge the Lord and judge ourselves. He is a reflection of our own I AM consciousness. Again,this goes back to my point that the Son of God is being raised. This is why he required baptism. He must rise to new life, which he did and will. He was, is and is to come.

a reply to: AlephBet

Human kind is a blink in time... IF he existed before creation He has had plenty of time to perfect himself

How anyone can even consider this idea is beyond me...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: AlephBet

Human kind is a blink in time... IF he existed before creation He has had plenty of time to perfect himself

How anyone can even consider this idea is beyond me...

An image represents the thing it was created from. The Son of God was the first image. Angels created with God and then rejoiced when it was completed. Mankind was the sixth day. Then God rested. In Genesis 2, the Lord created, split Adam (both male and female) into a female version as a companion. He then restricted the fruit so that we could not live forever. We were required to be born again by multiplication.

Genesis 1 was Elohim. Genesis 2 was a separate creation and Garden. The Lord is not Elohim. A Lord is a land owner.

a reply to: AlephBet

One would have to accept Genesis as truth before even considering such things... I do not...

Honestly I don't understand how one can even think of such things... makes me physically ill to even consider the idea that someone like Jesus had any part in anything within the OT

a reply to: AlephBet

What was Jesus all about?

Jesus was a contradiction of the teachings of the OT. He would fall into the category of Progressive in this day and age. He wasn't anything new. I am of the impression that both his Lord ... and God himself ... let his destiny play itself out. He suffered and was nailed to the cross.

I will say this for the guy, if the historians got it right in their attributions of "His" teachings, he knew an awful lot about what he was talking about. I'll leave it at that.

Here's another thing to consider: I don't think God want any man to lead. Consider the relationship of 'The Lord' of Israel, Samuel, and Saul's appointment as the first king of Israel. Was there not reluctance on the part of The Lord?

a reply to: AlephBet

Are you sure that baptism isnt your source of confusion? I consider water baptism to be purely symbolic. Jesus' water baptism was an overt expression of humility to His Father.

True baptism is of the spiritual nature. Fallen man inherets the sin nature from the father's side. Therefore, fallen man has a living soul, but a dead spirit. Baptism in the Holy Spirit restores the human spirit. Since Jesus was born of a virgin, His spirit was already alive. When Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit upon His baptism, He was simply filled with the Spirit. His human spirit did not require regeneration.

Jesus did not need baptism. We do.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: AlephBet

One would have to accept Genesis as truth before even considering such things... I do not...

Honestly I don't understand how one can even think of such things... makes me physically ill to even consider the idea that someone like Jesus had any part in anything within the OT

You don't agree with Paul. You don't believe in the OT as a valid source. You do believe in Jesus, who taught from the Torah with authority in the temple. How can you divest yourself of the OT and not see that Jesus taught from the scriptures you reject?

a reply to: AlephBet

Simple... He didn't use OT as much as Christians like to claim...

He used a verse here, and a line there... and the only reason he used it at all is to relate to his audience...

In fact he didn't need the OT at all, but again... when teaching or talking to someone who is familiar with certain pieces of literature you use what you can...

I speak to Christians on the regular, and I am very familiar with many different religions holy texts... but it wouldn't make much sense for me to use gnostic or hindu texts when speaking to a Christian

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: AlephBet

Are you sure that baptism isnt your source of confusion? I consider water baptism to be purely symbolic. Jesus' water baptism was an overt expression of humility to His Father.

True baptism is of the spiritual nature. Fallen man inherets the sin nature from the father's side. Therefore, fallen man has a living soul, but a dead spirit. Baptism in the Holy Spirit restores the human spirit. Since Jesus was born of a virgin, His spirit was already alive. When Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit upon His baptism, He was simply filled with the Spirit. His human spirit did not require regeneration.

Jesus did not need baptism. We do.

We pass four baptisms to get to Spirit baptism by fire. Water is the Earthly baptism to allow resurrection, or being born again as Dew. I'll make my next thread this topic. It would be easier to have a direct link rather than show you the connection of Elijah performing the first resurrection in 1 Kings 17 and his resurrected persona of John the Baptist in the first century. John 3 then goes on to tell how it works to get to the Spirit baptism. Jesus says, you must be born again. John the Baptist tells of this as a means to escape the coming wrath in Matthew 3 and other places. 1 Peter then tells how the flood of Noah is symbolism for baptism which now saves all of us. You are right. It does symbolize something--immersion into the river of life (Jordan).

1 Peter 3

He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

We are the beasts in the Ark. We are born again. No confusion on baptism unless you miss what it symbolizes.