A Simple Question for ATS - Who is the Lord of the OT?

If you know me, you know I can answer nearly every question of a biblical nature with logical answers. I am obsessed yes, but not for the reason you may think. I simply want to know the truth by giving the benefit of doubt to the one that seems to have the clearest voice. That's it. If I can find it, then I will apply it fully to my life. One question has a very unclear answer to me.

Who is the Lord of the OT?

Let me give you six points that clarify why I have trouble answering this question.

1. The first aspect of my confusion comes from the character of the Lord. He is an accuser of mankind. He is an adversary of his own people, but also of the entire world. Although he has a high moral stance, there are contradictions to his own platform. No nation is untouched from his accusations and his judgments of destruction. The entire world was flooded by his will, which he then later repents of. Genesis 6:6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. He also changes his mind, even though God never changes. Exodus 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

2. The second aspect of my confusion comes from Genesis 9:6 - "Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind."

What does the Lord then do throughout the entire OT. He commands his people to shed blood. If you can read Judges 19 to the end and agree with the Lord's decision to allow the tribes to take virgins from a festival, then you have a different ideal of morality than myself. There are many examples that we all have with the decisions we see the Lord of the OT make. Then again, our thoughts are not his and his are not ours. If you know what this means, then please tell me. After 6000 years of examining the scriptures, there are few that still preach from these words in the OT. Most sermons are of Paul's message, which contrasts that of the Lord's message. I am not saying there are not reasons. I have heard them all and read all the commentaries trying to find the answers.

3. Of course, each of these points are summed up by character and the product of actions. None more than this third point. 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. Who does the Lord love? His people. They are chosen form all of humanity, yet we only find out about the saving of the Gentiles in the NT and a few references from the old that must be translated to this conclusion. For the most part, we find the "Day of the Lord" as the greatest destruction of mankind yet. Like a fireworks finale, all words lead there.

Clearly, God is love. It does not take a great deal of logic to know that the highest good is love. Clearly, John noted this by telling us that "God IS Love." What do we know of love?

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Note the main point. Love (GOD) does not keep a record of wrongs. Who does keep a record of wrongs? Who accuses man? Who destroys man from his own impatient and vengeful character?

The answer to this is an obvious and resounding name--that of Satan. We have all been taught that Satan comes as the adversary of man. He comes to steal, kill and destroy. We also know this from Revelation:

Revelation 20

He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

From this, a strong presupposition we can make is that we are deceived currently. All of us.

My question stands: Who is the Lord of the OT?

There is another clue from Job. I have used these verses often on ATS:

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.”

Note what Job is saying. He knows the Redeemer. He knows that he (Job) will be born again into a new body. He also knows something else that is interesting. He says, "the trouble lies in him (Redeemer)". We then have the Son of God in the first century as the rejected Messiah. The Lord (YHVH) is then never mentioned, not even once, in the NT. Instead, we have Adon/Adonai as the Lord. This is not a new title, but also found in the OT as reference to the Lord.

4) We never find the Lord fighting an adversary other than man. Nowhere in the scriptures of the OT (unless I have missed something other than Genesis 3 and Job), do we find an adversary to the Lord. Other than the book of Job, the adversary is not mentioned. He is before the Lord in this verse and a few others in Job:

1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Something we see here is that Satan must travel. He is not omnipresent. As for the Lord, we find that he must appear using an Angel, namely, the Angel of the Lord. In other words, he appears in a vehicle rather than in person. In many places, he is noted to speak with men and leaders. Clearly, Satan is not frightened to be in the presence of the Lord, even though men seem to be.

Remember, God is Love and love keeps no records of wrongs. From the very words of the Lord in books like Isaiah, he thunders and brings down fire on mankind. Angels serve him.

5) One last note. This one speaks for itself. Remember, every jot and tittle must be correct or it is all in question.

First Chronicles 21 (ESV) Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.”

Second Samuel 24 (ESV) Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people”

There have been many attempts to satisfy the theology here, but it is clear David was incited by only one entity.

6) Bonus evidence for answering the question. See this thread on the Cyrus Cylinder Seal: Cyrus Cylinder Seal / YHVH or MARDUK?

You see my dilemma ("double proposition" is a problem offering two possibilities, neither of which is practically acceptable) in answering the question of all questions:

Who is the Lord of the OT?

Answering this question may be the single greatest fact mankind has ever discovered. The truth may set us free. Again, truth is all I seek.

I think your reference has been edited too many times to ever be certain.

a reply to: AlephBet

My question stands: Who is the Lord of the OT?

I like your question. Would you be able to believe me if I told you?

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
I think your reference has been edited too many times to ever be certain.

By that, you are likely referring to the Bible itself. I have always believed that DNA is the actual word of God. I can say this of DNA from reading the book of Jasher and the book of Enoch. DNA has been edited. I also know this from the works of current day science. You would think, if the Bible had been edited, someone would have caught the correct name of the one that incited David to the census. This seems to be a huge blunder.

I formally took a different position on the editing part, but I also know something that most people have not realized. The true word of God is till in the letters and words of Hebrew. The entire story is encoded there under the hood of the language used to write the Bible. Anyone can change the outer book, but the inner meaning is still in the letters. We are just now decoding the Babel that occurred in Babylon. I think the true meaning in the letters will reveal the truth of the rest. It's only a matter of time. Read my very first thread there and you will see that there is a vast territory we have not yet realized from the letters.

As for who the Lord is, I will not answer the question until we are translated and all things are revealed. I only present my dilemma here to hopefully find someone with insight that will be helpful. For me, the various answers leave more questions, including trying to defend the actions of the Lord. One thing I do know for sure. We have yet to reach the highest reasoning and axioms of truth available. It very well could be, given a good education from God, I could answer why and who and what for. Until I get that education, I will speculate.

a reply to: AlephBet

Simple answer

YHWH did not instruct Israel to take the wives forcibly.

Israel and everyone else has freewill. This decision, which is clear from the passage, was made by men not YHWH. The Israelites obviously made a poor choice on this day. Why do you blame YHWH for the choices men made?

This is what the passage says about their actions.

Judges 21:25
25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

originally posted by: AlephBet
Who is the Lord of the OT? Answering this question may be the single greatest fact mankind has ever discovered. The truth may set us free. Again, truth is all I seek.

This is true...

"Truth is not a teaching, truth is a person." ~ Jan Sjoerd Pasterkamp

Darren Wilson's documentary's were created specifically to answer that one question...

I highly recommend them to anyone seeking answers to this question:

I went into making this film by asking the simple question: who is God? I wanted to know His character, His personality, and who He truly is. To answer this question, we had to peel back the many layers of religious garbage that has been passed onto him through generations. That He is angry. Vengeful. Wrathful. And in general, that He doesn’t like you very much.

In this explosive documentary, filmmaker Darren Wilson attempts to do the impossible: film God and understand His character. Along the way, Darren and his team encounter powerful witch doctors, violent gang leaders, Hindu holy men, and everyday people with extraordinary experiences to tell. Father of Lights attempts to tear away much of the bad press the Almighty has received over the years, and reveals a God who is far better than anyone could have possibly imagined.

originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: AlephBet

My question stands: Who is the Lord of the OT?

I like your question. Would you be able to believe me if I told you?

Only if you present a case. I have presented the best points that raise questions. I suppose there could be more, but these seem to be the most profound I can imagine. Give me your points, but not a simple answer. I need evidence. My simple answer is that God needs us to forgive enemies from what he finds from his own creation. He may have made Himself the main enemy by accident. If this were true, then a simple recognition would be enough for most of us to simply join in for the solution. The universe is pretty amazing, despite the poor education we receive along the way. Textbooks with definitions would be a start. One language would definitely help. A few visions would go along way for most of us.

Seems pretty silent as far as I can tell. The old rubble from destroyed temples and libraries has not proven valuable enough, but very interesting none the less. Mirrors and images. None of them clean.

originally posted by: sacgamer25
a reply to: AlephBet

Simple answer

YHWH did not instruct Israel to take the wives forcibly.

Israel and everyone else has freewill. This decision, which is clear from the passage, was made by men not YHWH. The Israelites obviously made a poor choice on this day. Why do you blame YHWH for the choices men made?

This is what the passage says about their actions.

Judges 21:25
25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

I said the truth. Our reasoning is not the Lords' and his is not ours. I also stated that we might one day know why given a higher axiom of truth than we possess. I am not questioning the Lord here, I am merely stating that there is a preponderance of evidence that begs the question: Who is the Lord. Is he the Son of God? Is he Elohim? Is he the Father? Is he Satan? Is he something else entirely. I cannot see why he remained silent to the virgin situation. He typically disagrees with wrongs done to families. Not in this case. Silence. Why? Again, he must have a reason.

I simply want to know which one of the many biblical characters we need to see as his identity. It is unclear. Cyrus says he is Marduk. We have an actual artifact from that day and time saying so. Who is right? Who incited David? Satan or the Lord (or both / neither)? As I will continue to say here. We need higher axioms of morality, truth and we need a better education. One language would help.

SEE MY SIG.

I can explain in more detail if you are interested.

a reply to: AlephBet

I don't really understand, you are worried about who YHWH is because of the violence in the OT. If I'm not mistaken the Crusades, Napoleon, WW1, WW2, and every war currently going on suggest that the God that allowed war in the OT is the same God that allows war now.

The problem does not lie with God, but man's refusal to actually follow the prophets and seek love and peace over power and greed.

I find it a little short cited to believe YHWH to be anything that he isn't still today. The Lord who desires peace, but avenges the righteous. A Lord who gave us freewill to live as we choose, even if we live against his will.

a reply to: sacgamer25

Judges 21:25
25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

Matthew 28

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.

One teacher. His main lessons was always, "then they shall know that I am God." God is love. Is YHVH Jesus? Is Jesus God? Who is the Father in relation to Jesus, God and YHVH?

Isaiah 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.

Note that the Lord's arm is the man mentioned here. God punishes him. How many characters are in this description?

a reply to: AlephBet

Jesus called himself a created son of God, only above us because he was created as such. He prefers by his own words to be considered our brother because we only have one father.

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
I think your reference has been edited too many times to ever be certain.

No one has ever been able to prove that the Bible was tampered with.

Of course we all know why...

There obviously IS no documentation.

Manuscript evidence for the New Testament is remarkable, far surpassing that which exists for any other ancient book. And those who work with these ancient copies (called "textual critics") are convinced that they have been able to recover a Greek New Testament which is virtually identical to the original.

This evidence does not prove that the Bible is the word of God. But it does demonstrate conclusively that the Bible you have is the same which was first written by its authors. When Teabing (the Da Vinci Code's "historian") asserts, "History has never had a definitive version of the book" and claims that scholars cannot confirm the authenticity of the Bible, he's simply wrong. Is the Bible true?

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
...the manuscripts used to compile the KJV are still in the british museum. that means that these original texts are available to check on the good editors of the KJV and other version's editors. Furthermore in the case of the old testament because of the nature of hebrew every line has a checksum. it cannot be edited or typo'ed without it showing up as a checksum error and of course things like ancient fragmentary copies of isaiah show practically no divergence from our modern copies of it.

originally posted by: sacgamer25
a reply to: AlephBet

I don't really understand, you are worried about who YHWH is because of the violence in the OT. If I'm not mistaken the Crusades, Napoleon, WW1, WW2, and every war currently going on suggest that the God that allowed war in the OT is the same God that allows war now.

The problem does not lie with God, but man's refusal to actually follow the prophets and seek love and peace over power and greed.

I find it a little short cited to believe YHWH to be anything that he isn't still today. The Lord who desires peace, but avenges the righteous. A Lord who gave us freewill to live as we choose, even if we live against his will.

Shedding blood of men was what God said not to do in Genesis 9. The Lord commands men to shed blood.

I agree with you that the wars are the same as in the OT.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

I simply want to know who the Lord is. Cyrus called him Marduk.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Watching it now. Thank you.

a reply to: Murgatroid

One thing I notice from the video right away. The trailer said that everyone will praise the Lord, then, "God is good and everyone will want a King like Jesus." Right away, we have three characters listed. Elihim is the Genesis 1 creator. YHVH is the Lord creating in Genesis 2. Eli is the one that Jesus called out to on the cross. Again, who is the Lord? Where is he in the New Testament?

Read this:

1 Corinthians 15

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Clearly, the Father here and Jesus have a relationship and are not the same.

There is another Father of the Jews. Here are Jesus words to that fact:

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Who is he referring to? The Jewish Father. Who? Who is YHVH? We don't know. If we did, it would not be hidden. Since we don't, it is veiled. Why?

Just asking the question.

both ea and enlil were the yhwh of the old testament . god wants us to shed each others blood he's hungry and so are his children

a reply to: AlephBet

Jesus is the light and all things were made by him, through him and for him, according to several passages.

Their is at least one passage, I think 2 in the NT, that directly link Christ as being with the Israelites during the Exodus and in the desert.

God The father/Mother Elohim.

Gen 1:3 The first name given to the son, the firstborn of all creation, "light", the second name, "day", The third YWHW Elohim, first name YHWH, last name as per ancient tradition, your fathers first name.

I believe Jesus was the light and all things were made by him like the passages read, with one exception.

Be afraid of the ONE/Father who can kill both the body and Spirit.

Christ's authority is to love, to be a clone of God's perfect love that dwells within us. But the father is clearly depicted as the creator. If all creation, including the light were to rise against the father, by his thought alone he could destroy us all. This is the power reserved by God according to his son.

This is what I believe is the truth.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Sorry to bother you again, but the author of the video is asking, "Who is God." I know that answer. God is Love. I am seeking to know who the Lord of the OT is. Clearly, he is not God, but claims to be. Love does not request that men break the command of God in Genesis 9 to NOT shed blood. Maybe God changed his mind and decided it needed to be shed, but I do not thing God changes. One of my founding presuppositions is that God reflects physics. The Strong Nuclear force follows invariant symmetry. It is unchanging. From the foundation of the universe, one strong foundation keeps order for life to exist. God's will is to give and receive. Taking is not his will. It can be argued that God gives life again. I will concede that this is so, but I do not believe a direct command to steal (booty), kill and destroy is his motivation for giving life again.

Satan and god are not enemies, if they were god would destroy him. God is having to clean up his own believers that went astray quite a bit. sounds like the US cleaning up the leaders they put in charge of countries in the past after they helped them overthrow the government.

What is god's name? I couldn't tell you if I did know because someone who knows how to pronounce gods name can gain great power in this world. Marduck may have been a carnation of god further back. The wisdom of god in a person. I think that god has been here in many people over the years giving them wisdom and understanding. Evil runs most of the world though, deceit has run wild. God can control people but not those who do not hear him. Many, but not all, of those who gained wealth deceitfully can not hear god, but many do this in gods name.

Now to me I interpret Satan as the tester of man to see if he can be corrupted. The devil is the deceiver or trixter, a trait that man chooses. I don't think the word devil is an entity, it is a deceitful person. I don't know what lucifer is, that one I can't find much that makes sense to me enough to make a decision as to what he may be. Now Apollo is the one who guards the gates of hell, he would be under god's control. These are just my sort of interpretations from reading articles and thinking of them.

If you follow Satan, the one who initiates the testing, and take the bait, that is not good. Satan does not seem to kill people, but if a person takes his bait, the person can kill. The devil in us can kill also.

I'm probably going to have someone say I am on the wrong path. God is a friend, not a mean tyrant. Treat your friends with the respect they deserve, not the respect they want. If everyone was good, these would be the same.