‘Forced’ to fight: Disillusioned British ISIS Fighters Afraid to Come Home

originally posted by: seentoomuch


ETA: Wouldn't it be better to just put out the word that if you go on jihad all citizen's rights are revoked, no exceptions, that's it. Wouldn't it prevent any further recruitment?

No, it wouldn't prevent recruitment - if they're willing to renounce, they're willing to renounce - but it would certainly firm up the legal quagmire they're trying to get us stuck in, and close the loopholes!

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: nenothtu

If we don't give them a trial them we are lawless barbarians too..

It's war, not a traffic ticket. There's nothing particularly civil about it. It's not up you you or I to "give them a trial" - unless you or I are Syrians or Iraqis - in Syria or Iraq. I know that I'm not, and I suspect that you aren't, either.

and it's quite simple to decide which laws they are judged by - they have committed crimes in Iraq or Syria via their insurgent behaviour so treat them by the laws of those lands. I imagine that these will prove punitive enough for most in this thread.

That would, of course, involve leaving them there, rather than allowing them to come back here. I'm good with that.

To suggest that all people joined IS to behead folk is just plain naive, and beheading folk is not IS's only activity.

To suggest that they didn't, and that they were suddenly surprised by those behaviors is equally naive. It's not like the tactics were just invented, or hidden until they got there. It was all over the news, has been for years. They KNEW what they were getting into, and were apparently OK with that.

Many will have joined to overthrow Assad or get western puppets out of Iraq, viewing them as a vehicle for for their own nationalist beliefs.

I'd say ALL of them joined to overthrow Assad - and joined in full knowledge of what that entailed, and what they were exactly working towards and promoting. The drive for a caliphate and "purifying Islam" - to their own standards and by established means of "purification", of course - are not exactly new news, either.

I see many here describing absolutely everyone involved in any way with IS as inhuman, and while i understand that approach, deep down it's just a regular cop-out and allows us to brutalise others and cut off any need for understanding - that stuff really does not solve issues and while it may make folk feel better in the short term (as blood-letting often does) it will just ensure that the cycle continues.

Frankly, I don't give a tinker's damn whether they are "human" or not. They want to end me, and mine (some Muslims being included in "mine"), and that's all I need to know, and nearly all I need to understand - the rest of what I need to understand is the routes they take from point A to point B, and where they go to get their drinking water, because everyone and every living thing has to drink, so they will have to show up at the water hole eventually.

Once they are pushing up thorns at the water hole, the issue is solved.

How many Brits died in Iraq to establish that government? Then these guys go in and crap on their sacrifice.. Then they find out their holy war isn't so holy and they wanna come home? Oh hell no!

a reply to: nenothtu

To suggest that they didn't, and that they were suddenly surprised by those behaviors is equally naive. It's not like the tactics were just invented, or hidden until they got ther

exactly, a point I have made before, why do some think this is anything new, it isn't like it is uncommon

Two words..

Too bad.

If more words are required then.,.

Tough luck, too bad.


They wanted their Calliphate Islamic State, well, stay there, have fun playing with Israel.

originally posted by: skalla

Being bloodthirsty in return shows that there is no reasoning with us either, and beheading someone for not being a fanatical Muslim is no different from shooting someone for being in the same organisation as one.

There it is.

I don't WANT to be "reasoned with", I want not to be killed or subjugated. I want me and mine to be left alone in peace.

I will be as bloodthirsty as necessary to insure that.

But they are the barbarians, right?

Not quite. They make barbarians look bad.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis
"Speaking of compassion - so many of our soldiers, and soldiers throughout history, have fought for causes they believed in. Sometimes the story they're told, and the situation they're presented with is not what they signed on for"

Your comparing people who behead people, murder women and children wholesale on video..to WHAT? Most of these little spoiled pukes just wanted to go do anything they wanted with no rules..IMHO.
they can come back to face crimes against humanity or they ask some South American country to accept them..they love murderous war criminals down there.
If they wish to talk about how reformed they are and how changed and how profoundly respectful they are they are they can do it after they get out of prison..there is a price society put on murder, there was no illusion on what ISIS was doing in Syria to their captives.

a reply to: JiggyPotamus

Exactly.

making a "mistake" is typing an "n" when you meant to type an "m".

Buying a ticket and getting on a plane to travel a few thousand miles and hacking the head from a body begging to live, then jamming it onto the top of a fencepost in a line with many others just like it, after posing with it for a photo-op, not so much. That seems to be more in the "intentional" category to me.

SISI (Russian for Boobies) is an ideal name for the Islamic State, more along the lines of Islamic Land, sounds like Disney land. If that is the kind of image they want, they got it.

originally posted by: LarryLove
a reply to: nenothtu

You can get worked up all you want and there is always more to a person than an internet handle. Problem is you judged me just like I imagine you have spent your life judging people and putting the atrocities to one side — both our nations have committed just as worse in war — the last best chance we have to deal with the problem is finding enough common ground to talk, understand and find a mutually beneficial path forward. Closed-minded individuals like yourself who insist on emotions getting the better of them need not apply to efforts in finding a solution.

No, Mr. Love, I am not "worked up". I rarely get worked up over much of anything any more - I hear it's bad for the blood pressure. It's a pretty terrible sight to behold when I DO get worked up, so I make a real effort to keep it in check.

it was not just your "internet handle" - the content of your post confirmed it. You want to "understand" ISIS. Go for it, but watch your back when you do. I'm not going to, because as i said, I already understand all I need to about them.

Your mini-profile says you are from the UK, so I respectfully request that you provide links to videos of either US/UK soldiers videoing decapitations or bleeding out naked women into bowls for promotional purposes, or, failing that, an endorsement of the US/UK governments sanctioning such activity by their soldiers as ISIS does. Until you can do that, I can't agree that "both our nations have committed just as worse in war".

I do worry about people who seek common ground with such individuals, but worry more about them if they actually FIND any commonality with such butchers.

Unfortunately, I've had conversations with the "fundamentalist" Muslims. based upon them, I think you will find that there IS no "mutually beneficial path forward", but by all means, seek it if you must. They have no desire for mutual benefit - they only want their own benefit, at your expense. There is no compromise - what I was told is that "we will fight all until the whole world is for Allah - nothing less is acceptable". Of course, if you convert, you can share in the benefits that accrue to them, as long as you convert to their brand of fanaticism, and help them subjugate the rest of us.

There is a reason I'm "closed-minded", but I am not emotional. Emotions get in the way of survival, and make no mistake, it is survival at stake. I submit that it may be YOU who are emotional, thinking that these poor souls are merely being misunderstood, and that there is some way to reason with them. By all means be nice to them, bow and scrape to them, seek your "common ground" with them - but pray you never find it. If you do, then in looking into the face of the beast, you have merged with it. You will have to merge with it, because it will not give a millimeter to understand YOU, and all motion in a meeting of the minds will be one way.

You are correct, however, in the assertion that emotions will never find a solution to the dilemma - not while preserving the integrity of the seeker, anyhow.

a reply to: nenothtu

I spent some time this morning writing out a lengthy reply to this post. I’m, always up for a good argument - you know that. You always make a good argument. Passionate - always rational

I returned back to this thread ready to post and saw what all is happening in here now - paired with the posts made earlier on when this thread started…

So, I’m tossing what I just wrote

People want blood - and God is on their side. Not sure this is a debatable topic

The same way that I would know they are not returning to eat my children's hearts, behead my granddaughter, and sell my sisters on a slave-block - I WOULDN'T know, either way. Neither is it a chance I'm willing to take, gambling with the lives of my own people.

Not being willing to take that gamble is likely why we will never get past this - never move forward - never have peace. I think you know as well as I do, as well as anybody - what we’re looking at here. This is borderless now - in a way it wasn’t before. We don’t own Iraq - and now - who will?

Sometimes Nenothtu - we have to take a risk that seems counterintuitive. Cautiously and conditionally letting these young men and women return will send a very important message and accomplish something that will never be accomplished with more violence

Why do you think they want to come back? Well, in as much as you and I see Assad very differently, there’s not much point in laboring over that one

I’ve never been able to see the world in absolutes, good and evil. A war sanctioned by God is everybody’s war because God is always on the side of right. Even in this - nothing has changed

When the unthinkable happens, we’re forced - all of us - to look at something unimaginably and horribly wrong and contemplate it. We try and make sense out of these things, but we can’t. We can’t - because we don’t want to

Understanding these things makes them too intimate, and the truth we come up with is uncomfortable

The peaceniks aren’t a popular group - ironically for some of the same reasons the hawks aren’t popular. They don’t always agree with their own kind, they think they know what’s best for everyone, and they are often played by people with a separate agenda. Both think they’re working for what’s best for people everywhere and many times their involvement just makes things worse

It’s a universe of unintended consequences, and I know that you and I come at this from very different points of view

I once knew a young man, years ago, that got involved with the wrong people for the right reasons. His cause was just, but he was lured by an offer of support that very nearly led him into fighting in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. He got away from all that - but it wasn’t easy. He is absolutely pro-democracy and pro-West today. He understands the world now from a different perspective because he saw things he might not have seen otherwise

Compassion, inclusion and tolerance works to our advantage. Especially considering that most of the Muslim diaspora is living in the West for a very good reason. But you can’t blame many for wanting to make things work out back home - even if they never actually lived there

It’s a little too convenient to argue that all of them had the same motives or agreed to the same things

Is it your contention here that other people committing "crimes in the name of allegiance" makes it OK for these jihadists to do the same?

Absolutely not, and I’m not sure how you made such a leap. But people of all faiths, nationalities and ideologies often commit themselves to questionable things - out of loyalty. Once in it’s not so easy to get out

Now they want to come home and switch their allegiances back again? If you would allow that, you should always keep in the back of your mind just how easily they swap allegiance…

Again, we see things differently - I don’t want to waste my breath. It wasn’t always a case of turning their backs on one country, but instead fighting for another. Why do you think some of them were here to begin with? Why weren’t they - or their parents - back living in Syria? You see Assad as being a fair man. Some people lived there with a very different point of view. And, with good reason. I know a couple, he’s Syrian, she’s Lebanese - they left for America years ago. They had their reasons

And "no matter what they've done" - seriously? Did you seriously say that in print here?

I did. If you read through my other posts you’ll understand what I was saying

I’m fairly certain that I’ve offended a lot of people Nenothtu, including the missus. I’m sure she heard my words as a criticism of someone she loves. It wasn’t what I intended, and I’m fairly certain you understood what I meant

No quarter on this though, and if it’s something I have to live with because people want to read something I didn’t say, then I accept that

A criminal convicted of a provable crime is a different thing from what I’m talking about. When those unfortunate young soldiers returned from Viet Nam years ago, they were reviled by the Peace protestors of that time - almost unanimously. Our culture and our views were changed in many significant ways from that war, and I think many people on both sides learned that it wasn’t a black and white situation then any more than it is now

In a war, crimes are committed. There are atrocities. There are criminals. Some of us see the entire war as a crime. The thing of it is, soldiers are often fighting for what they believe is right - what’s good. Sometimes we all agree together about what is right - and what is good. And sometimes, as I said earlier - when you’re in it - you’re in it. There is no out

Compassion and working for peace is the only way out of this I’m afraid. Vengeance is useless, justice arbitrary, inexact and abstract

It’s complicated

edit on 9/7/2014 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I did. If you read through my other posts you’ll understand what I was saying

I’m fairly certain that I’ve offended a lot of people Nenothtu, including the missus. I’m sure she heard my words as a criticism of someone she loves. It wasn’t what I intended, and I’m fairly certain you understood what I meant

No quarter on this though, and if it’s something I have to live with because people want to read something I didn’t say, then I accept that

A criminal convicted of a provable crime is a different thing from what I’m talking about. When those unfortunate young soldiers returned from Viet Nam years ago, they were reviled by the peaceniks of that time - almost unanimously. Our culture and our views were changed in many significant ways from that war, and I think many people on both sides learned that it wasn’t a black and white situation then any more than it is now

In a war, crimes are committed. There are atrocities. There are criminals. Some of us see the entire war as a crime. The thing of it is, soldiers are often fighting for what they believe is right - what’s good. Sometimes we all agree together about what is right - and what is good. And sometimes, as I said earlier - when you’re in it - you’re in it. There is no out

Compassion and working for peace is the only way out of this I’m afraid. Vengeance is useless, justice arbitrary, inexact and abstract

It’s complicated

a reply to: vonclod

Are you pretty sure you know who did what - and that all of the people over there right now committed crimes?

ISIS was created by the american and UK governments...
and all the talk about american and english jihadiis is pure B.S...it's so painfully obvious...wake up everyone.

They just want an excuse to take all freedom away.. this is all just a build up to the next false flag attack which they will partially blame on domestic terrorism and the snowden leak and then people will beg them to enact marshall law and take all these dangerous freedoms away.

Not sure how so many people can fall for this obvious trick..The ISIS thing is worse than a low budget movie.
anyone who watched that be-heading video and thought it was real has no idea how special effects work at all...because those were some of the worst effects I have ever seen...the knife was obviously plastic...hello?

a reply to: OpinionatedB & nenothtu

Tarnishing? Who is it that tarnished with their videos of beheading people. Crucifying people for having different beliefs?

Yes, but when you support dealing with them in such an unjust way you are not helping the cause of Muslims in the West. On the contrary, you're reinforcing prejudices that are already widely prevalent there.

*

I'm NOT a muslim, but by your definition I AM a "bloodthirsty scoundrel"

Certainly, if you say so. But if you're not a Muslim why did you reply that post?

I addressed a post specifically to you earlier on; perhaps you missed it, or didn't regard it as worth a response. Anyway, my position vis-à-vis your own was spelled out in it — briefly.

When Muslims don't speak out against these shenanigans, they get accused of being complicit. When they DO, they are marginalized for doing so. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Joining the belligerent chorus for their co-religionists' hides is — to quote you — doing it wrong.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
People want blood - and God is on their side. Not sure this is a debatable topic

Unfortunately, perhaps, It's not on my side. God doesn't care about "sides" - only people do that. If God picked sides, either none of the insurgents would have been killed, or none of their victims would have. If God had picked a side, someone would have won by now.

Not being willing to take that gamble is likely why we will never get past this - never move forward - never have peace. I think you know as well as I do, as well as anybody - what we’re looking at here. This is borderless now - in a way it wasn’t before. We don’t own Iraq - and now - who will?

Iraq doesn't even own Iraq any more. You are correct in that it's a war without borders, which is a whole new ball game in the grand scheme of things. When this latest round was contained within Syria as a "civil war", I advocated a hands-off approach. By definition civil wars are none of our affair, unless they are within our OWN borders. Now it has metamorphosed, it has crossed borders, and is a part of the wider war, without borders. nations are geared towards wars with borders, and I have doubts that they are equipped to meet the new challenge.

Sometimes Nenothtu - we have to take a risk that seems counterintuitive. Cautiously and conditionally letting these young men and women return will send a very important message and accomplish something that will never be accomplished with more violence

I have taken a few of those risks, but not with the lives of others, only my own. My wife and childrens' and grandchildrens' lives are not mine to throw away on a maybe that is too heavily weighted in favor of "not good". Some of them have already returned - one died recently of a drug overdose in Texas, I believe it was, or maybe Arizona. I expect that similar will befall the rest if they insist on returning. When you burn your bridges, there is a lot of baptism involved in an attempted return because you've got to swim, and sometimes, you drown.

Why do you think they want to come back? Well, in as much as you and I see Assad very differently, there’s not much point in laboring over that one

I know why they want to return. That's why I would not allow it if I were in charge - which luckily for a number of people I'm not.

Assad isn't a nice guy, but he DID protect Syria's religious freedom, and enforced secularism. Taking him out will have the same effect as taking Hussein out of Iraq, and kicking the Russians out of Afghanistan, and Mubarak out of Egypt, and Qadaffi out of Libya. None of them nice guys, but all replaced by worse, at least in the short run (Egypt only - the rest are still in smoking grease). A Christian would say that after the one demon was thrown out, seven more came along, found the house empty, and decided to party.

I’ve never been able to see the world in absolutes, good and evil. A war sanctioned by God is everybody’s war because God is always on the side of right. Even in this - nothing has changed

There are no absolutes - or very few, anyhow - but the older I get, the more I come to see things in those terms. Just because someone CLAIMS a god sanctioned a war - whether it's GW Bush or whatever name Gomer is using for himself these days ("Baghdadi" changes names like some people change socks), that does not mean that a god actually DID sanction it. I try to leave God out of my wars, because I don't want to have to answer to God for being presumptuous enough to claim to write policy for It. If a god wants to go to war, it will make an appearance in the war zone. If it's a god, no one can stop it, and no one can draft it into their army, either.

The peaceniks aren’t a popular group - ironically for some of the same reasons the hawks aren’t popular. They don’t always agree with their own kind, they think they know what’s best for everyone, and they are often played by people with a separate agenda. Both think they’re working for what’s best for people everywhere and many times their involvement just makes things worse

I don't know which category I fall into, if either one, because I don't try to figure out what's best for people everywhere - there IS no best for people everywhere, because all people are different. What's good for one is death for another, and so I just look out for my own small piece of the planet.

I once knew a young man, years ago, that got involved with the wrong people for the right reasons. His cause was just, but he was lured by an offer of support that very nearly led him into fighting in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. He got away from all that - but it wasn’t easy. He is absolutely pro-democracy and pro-West today. He understands the world now from a different perspective because he saw things he might not have seen otherwise

Not all of us dodged that bullet - I commend him. Based on what I saw, I cannot be either pro-democracy OR pro-"west". "Democracy" is a scam, a cop out that lets the individual feel good about letting other folks direct his life for him, and absolves him of the responsibility of thinking for himself and making his own decisions. "The west" is marching into oblivion at a breakneck speed, being led there by "the east" as if they already had a noose around our neck to drag us along by. At this point, both are dead-end roads unless some serious road repair gets initiated.

Afghanistan, and some of the circumstances around it, is how I know what the radicalized elements are thinking. Your friend should, too. You meet all kinds on the road to jihad.

Compassion, inclusion and tolerance works to our advantage. Especially considering that most of the Muslim diaspora is living in the West for a very good reason. But you can’t blame many for wanting to make things work out back home - even if they never actually lived there

Those only work if initiated BEFORE radicalization occurs. They work to prevent radicalization, and in the wrong hands they are the CAUSE of radicalization. It's a matter of who gets to the disenfranchised person first with the tolerantly inclusive goodies.

Absolutely not, and I’m not sure how you made such a leap. But people of all faiths, nationalities and ideologies often commit themselves to questionable things - out of loyalty. Once in it’s not so easy to get out

Which is how that ancient adage about "looking before you leap" came about. If you don't, you live or die with the consequences. "Democracy" cannot absolve one of the responsibility for that decision.

------------ To be continued ---------------

-------------- Continued --------------

Again, we see things differently - I don’t want to waste my breath. It wasn’t always a case of turning their backs on one country, but instead fighting for another. Why do you think some of them were here to begin with? Why weren’t they - or their parents - back living in Syria? You see Assad as being a fair man. Some people lived there with a very different point of view. And, with good reason. I know a couple, he’s Syrian, she’s Lebanese - they left for America years ago. They had their reasons

I've known a few Syrians myself. Some of them spoke so poorly of America that I couldn't figure out why they were here - at the time. Many of those went back to Syria when the Muslim Brotherhood called and said it was time. Others were here apparently to genuinely improve their lives, and took to it very well, and are still here, railing against ISIS and living in fear that nothing will be done and they will have to run again.

At least one was here to recruit wahabbis for the upcoming wars.

Assad is not a fair man - not even a little bit... but he's not a threat to the world, either. ISIS and their associates ARE.

I’m fairly certain that I’ve offended a lot of people Nenothtu, including the missus. I’m sure she heard my words as a criticism of someone she loves. It wasn’t what I intended, and I’m fairly certain you understood what I meant

No quarter on this though, and if it’s something I have to live with because people want to read something I didn’t say, then I accept that

No, she never mentioned it. I don't think she could make that association, anyhow, since it didn't apply to me - I never enlisted. All my doings were by an entirely different route. I wasn't welcomed back, nor did I expect to be. I HAVE had a few undeserved (in my mind, anyhow) accusations hurled at me, but that's a whole 'nuther story. I didn't take your comments to be directed at me or anyone like me. I took issue instead with the attempt to equate Americans going to join ISIS with Americans going to join the service. The ones going to join ISIS aren't too awfully different from me - they're freelance, on their own, accountable only to themselves, and must of necessity live with the consequences of their own actions. The services, on the other hand, have mechanisms in place to deal with miscreants, and are state-sanctioned - therefore their actions are punished when punishment is merited, to preserve the integrity of the organization.

Compassion and working for peace is the only way out of this I’m afraid. Vengeance is useless, justice arbitrary, inexact and abstract

The current situation is not about either vengeance or justice. It's about preservation. The time for either vengeance or justice has not yet come - those only appear after preservation is assured. In that respect, it's not so different from any other war when you're up to you neck in the mud of it. The main difference between now and what has gone before is that now it's a guerrilla conflict on a world-wide scale, with no "front lines". Any place is susceptible to be a front line in an instant. Most governments deal poorly with that sort of situation when it's confined within their own borders - and no one has ever had to deal with it on a worldwide scale.

Preventing these fighters from returning reduces the probability that a front will flare up here, and reduces their capability in the event that it does, making that possibility easier to manage.

It’s complicated

Indeed it is.

if they want a Calliphate Islamic Wonderland, let them have it, after all, we let Israel have their wonderland.

What's the difference?

If they want to go around chopping each others body parts off, let em, eventually they will run out of body parts there and then it will be a desert once again.

One way trip, to Dreamland.

Just don't do business with them, trade or let em travel.

Eventually the problem will solve itself to dust.

Since Turkey seems to be supporting this, no way will they get into the EU anytime soon, or in future lol.

God knows why we let them in NATO, well, I don't care about NATO not being a member of it, however I do care about the EU region (of which Turkey is not really welcome, that is more of an experiment, or a puppet for Middle East manipulation). All those British tourists with houses in Turkey, must be on Mi6 watch lists every time they travel lol.

a reply to: nenothtu

The process of radicalization has been studied to death in every context from minor street gangs to islamist militants. If you truly care about these people, then it's time to avail yourself of those studies and get to them BEFORE the radicalizers do. If you wait until afterwards, you're in a whole new, and very dangerous, ball game.
I've heard through the grapevine that an ATS member is contemplating starting a thread on the process of radicalization, how it's done, what it entails, and how to meet the challenge of it. it may be worth the read for you when it gets posted.

I was meaning in the literal sense, as in who, specifically, is talking with these young people, what exactly has been said etc, but nonetheless the thread sounds good. I'll definitely have a read, thank you

I'm trying to remember if we had this debate about folk coming back from fighting with the IRA, UVF et al and I don't think we did. I don't remember talk of citizenship being revoked, I'll need to check that. I'm wondering if these fighters looked Scottish/British (ie white) if there would be a different response. I don't know, just wondering if they seem more 'other' and so less local.

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: nenothtu

The process of radicalization has been studied to death in every context from minor street gangs to islamist militants. If you truly care about these people, then it's time to avail yourself of those studies and get to them BEFORE the radicalizers do. If you wait until afterwards, you're in a whole new, and very dangerous, ball game.
I've heard through the grapevine that an ATS member is contemplating starting a thread on the process of radicalization, how it's done, what it entails, and how to meet the challenge of it. it may be worth the read for you when it gets posted.

I was meaning in the literal sense, as in who, specifically, is talking with these young people, what exactly has been said etc, but nonetheless the thread sounds good. I'll definitely have a read, thank you

I'm trying to remember if we had this debate about folk coming back from fighting with the IRA, UVF et al and I don't think we did. I don't remember talk of citizenship being revoked, I'll need to check that. I'm wondering if these fighters looked Scottish/British (ie white) if there would be a different response. I don't know, just wondering if they seem more 'other' and so less local.

No, the British government give them the reigns of power in a devolved government. Solved the problem didn't it.

Now the health service is fecked up (again). SO is education, and social services.

They always throw a tantrum when they don't get their way by reviving the skeleton in the closet.

The reason the PIRA got the power, cuz they're no good for anything else, they got old and useless. SO now they just sell book signings, speeches and expenses in government.

And don't tell me that was the only way, well, since the British governmetn loves to negociate and give in to terrorism, well, looks like that is comming back to bite you, HARD, with the Islamic State.

Karma is Karma.

Everytime I hear a British politican on TV say "We don't pay terrorists" or "We don't give in to Terrorism demands", well I know for a fact it is a flat out LIE.

Northern Ireland is proof of that.

Frankly a lot of people would be happy to see the PIRA/UVF et all having their citizenship revoked, anyway, its funny, those fighting for a united irealnd, the PIRA, held onto British Passports, kinda funny since Scotish people wanting independance will also be holding onto their British passports and they want to also hold onto the British Pound LOL. Btw, they havn't gone away ya know, they still exist, as do teh various other named Mafias that exist, same people, different names. Punishment attacks/shootings still happen, drug control still happens, bank robberies et al. So much for peace eh. Oh but its a form of peace, yeah, well, I suppose it stopped the bombing on the UK mainland, that's peace to you lot.

Oh the hyporacy is astounding.