Did Jesus say anything about gay folk?.

a reply to: DarknStormy

As for where he actually speaks about it, I don't think he does but the later books of the New Testament do..

Considering that Paul/Saul wrote most of the New Testament then it seems most christians are living there lives based mostly on what he said and not Jesus. When Jesus spoke it was documented by the apostles where as when Paul speaks everyone is basically taking him at his word.

As Paul persecuted the christians why would anyone believe a word he said. The more likely answer is he was an agent provocateur set to undermine Jesus's message.

a reply to: flammadraco

I agree with you, there are much bigger problems that we are facing... Plus, I'm not a Christian lol, I only interpret what I can see in the scripture. I am not saying I am right, Only God knows whats true and false.

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
a reply to: flammadraco

Apparently back then people used to get stoned to death. Must have been some good sht!

men should not lay with men lest they be stoned. and we got two things being legalized in a major political upset over the past year or so...

a reply to: Bassago

Honestly, I don't think any of the New Testament is the truth.. But it's there and until those Books are removed from the bible, then I guess Christians are stuck with it. But if those Books are removed, then it exposes the Bible as a Hoax because then it must be questioned whether the rest is also a hoax. I don't understand how Christians themselves can call those Books Bunk, it does not justice to the credibility of that Book and makes them look like idiots at the same time.

a reply to: DarknStormy

What does the word, all mean to you? The law you try to make superior, was the Pharasees law. He continuously called that, "your law", not his. Even called them spawn of Satan if I recall correctly.

His law, the one I posted, is what will never go away. And he is absolutely correct. His paperwork is in order. He is not a priest after the order of Aaron. Please see Psalm 110.

PS, according to the Cyrus Cylinder, who was the most high? Hint, it is not YHWH. Did Cyrus get confused about Isaiah 45 or something?

a reply to: boymonkey74

I know there was something in the commandments about coveting an ass?

Also... I did think about the verse about God hating fornication... and considered that. maybe God prefers fellatio instead?

a reply to: flammadraco

Well, duh! That would ruin ALL the other "Thou Shalts" But in all honestly.. How can You cite scripture, from any book, website or a flier that "they" drop off on Your doorstep, that doesn't "begin at The Beginning"? Lilith ended up with Samael and is listed further along the story... BUT doesn't the story begin "Adam and Eve"? Well if Adam's first wife was Lilith, then anything written, carved, etc. is Bullsh... balogna.

Lilith MUST HAVE existed because She got blamed for "wet dreams" (so probably a "Hottie" That in itself leads Me to believe 'The Quorum' wanted to make the distance between Lilith and Adam as f a r as "they" could...

If "they" lied about "The Beginning" it is a clear indicator the "middle" and "end" is also "sullied".. Remember 'the snake' in the same "garden" (that reference from the earlier "I believe in The Garden" Yeah? The main player is missing from Your "play" Opera/stage production..) This 'numbskulls' will have You "believing" the snake is 'bad' Of course, because 'The Snake' brings "wisdom" and "They" want You 'dumber than owl #' because You're easier to control then and You relinquish one of God's Greatest Gifts "FREE WILL" By "dumbly following" PastorGary and the rest of 'TheKabal' which is Religion™ 'They" need You to 'blindly follow' for the 'bodies' to do "the Work" just like when their forefathers came down and "boned" the Earth Girls.. (Earth Girls Are Easy!)

Religion™ is for people afraid of Hell. God Loves You "as is" or until You scoff at the gift of FREE WILL. This is Earth, where this realm is "Love, Compassion and FREE WILL"

Also: "Love the neighbor like they want to be Loved" is total Horse sh.t. My neighbor is a masochist and likes His balls in a vice, I don't like that, so I "treat My neighbor as if I'm treating MySelf" No separation/ ALL is One.

You are the "other Me"

namaste

Jesus was pissed at the Pharisees and money changers. Other than that it was chill, be cool to everyone you meet and contemplate why you are here. His concern was to unite, not divide. And he love all, no exceptions.

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: DarknStormy

What does the word, all mean to you? The law you try to make superior, was the Pharasees law. He continuously called that, "your law", not his. Even called them spawn of Satan if I recall correctly.

The Pharisees were corrupt and though they proclaimed to be upholding the Law, it was also corrupt through their actions. The Pharisees are sort of like modern day Zionists, Use the Jewish label yet everything they actually stand for is contrary to Judaism.

His law, the one I posted, is what will never go away. And he is absolutely correct. His paperwork is in order. He is not a priest after the order of Aaron. Please see Psalm 110.

Yep, read it.. What is it saying?

PS, according to the Cyrus Cylinder, who was the most high? Hint, it is not YHWH. Did Cyrus get confused about Isaiah 45 or something?

Yeah, good point but I'll have to look a bit deeper into the Cylinder, that is a new one for me...

In reference to the bible, I have a manual for my car. It teaches and tells me a lot about what my car needs.

Now my car tells me how to change the oil in my engine. It also tells me how to change a flat tire. And it tells me how to change a light bulb.

Every time I change the oil, however, I do not change the tires or replace the light bulbs. Even though it shows me how to do so.

My faith isn't contingent on the bible. If the bible disappeared today, my faith would still be intact. If religion disappeared today, my faith would still be intact.

The bible is a wonderful book and teaches much. But it does not teach everything. An auto manual is very instructive, but it doesn't teach you how to drive.

Faith, love, experience, learning from others, can teach so much more, if given the chance.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: borntowatch
The simple fact is that homosexuality is against Gods law, the OT law is still in effect.

So you follow these Leviticus laws as well, right?
If you do any of these things, you are in deep sin.

- Failing to include salt in offerings to God (2:13)
- Eating fat (3:17)
- Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12)
- Eating any animal which walks on all four and has paws (11:27)
- Eating – or touching the carcass of – flying insects with four legs, unless those legs are jointed (11:20-22)
- Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)
- Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)
- Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9)
- Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)
- Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)
- Trimming your beard (19:27)
- Getting tattoos (19:28)

- And the big one - Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (cf: camel, rabbit, pig) (11:4-7)
(NO BACON or pork chops!)

It's all or nothing. If homosexuality is a sin because the Old Testament laws supposedly stand, then cutting your beard is a sin as well. So is having mixed fabric in your clothing. Do you wear polyester or a 'cotton blend'? Do you plant marigolds next to tulips in your garden? According to you ... that's all sin.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

You should read my post again.

How is it you totally ignored this part

[post=18376840]The Old Testament laws stand, for those outside of Christ.
What doesnt support your position or dont understand it? Its not difficult to understand,its not in code, its in english.

You can rail on about all or nothing, but it doesnt help your argument.
You have either failed to comprehend what I wrote or just left your blinders on.

The Old Testament LAWS DO STAND. but
For those in Christ, He fulfilled them.

Outside of Christ they are going to be the laws that the rest of humanity is judged on
Christians are no longer under the ritual law, just the moral law, and true Christians are forgiven if they repent of their sin.
Maybe search repentance before you go all off.

You could go read the bible for yourself, study it understand it, but hey, whats the point, it means you have to understand what you dont want to understand.

a reply to: beezzer

The Bible is a life path.. You choose to follow it or you don't. The same with your Car Manual. You either follow it or you don't but in both cases you may end up with major problems somewhere down the track if you or others did not follow the instructions. What I want to know is are we down the track right now on the Global scene?

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: borntowatch

But the old testament says eating pork and shellfish are also a sin.
Do you believe in those laws of god also?.
Why cherry pick?.

They are ritual laws for Jews, not moral laws.
Can you understand the difference, do you see that they represent ritual and cleanliness as opposed to morality.

Morality laws are still valid, even for Christians.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: beezzer

The Bible is a life path.. You choose to follow it or you don't. The same with your Car Manual. You either follow it or you don't but in both cases you may end up with major problems somewhere down the track if you or others did not follow the instructions. What I want to know is are we down the track right now on the Global scene?

The bible is a life path. But is it the only path? Like a manual, it can tell you how to repair or address something. But it cannot predict the outside circumstances that may affect your life.

We have learned so much since the writing of the bible. Does that negate the fundamental teachings? No. But we can look at the bible and take into context what was being taught by any given allegory.

As to whether or not we are down the right path on the global scene? I can't answer for anybody but myself. I try to stay true to the teachings of Jesus and try to think about what he would do in any given situation. I will never be as good or as right as Jesus. But it is an ideal I try to emulate. With all my faults.

originally posted by: semperfortis
a reply to: boymonkey74

You are pretty well spot on...

Jesus did speak on "sex outside of marriage" and some scholars believe his comments about eunuchs are in reference to homosexuality..

While sex outside of marriage is a sin, the thing to remember is all sins can be forgiven expect one... To turn away from salvation/God..

I see a lot of people categorize homosexual sex with fornication and adultery. However, biblical marriage didn't have one thing to do with sexual appeal or love. Marriage, under Hebrew biblical law was a business arrangement. Daughters were property of their fathers, and their fathers decided who they would marry. Once married, a women was property of her husband.

Having sex with an unmarried women, according to Hebrew law, violated and corrupted that women, to the point that she could be put to death. and was akin to stealing. The same was true with having sex with a married women. It was stealing something that belonged to the woman's husband. Again, it met with the death penalty, especially for the woman.

So, under Hebrew law, sex outside of marriage was the same as theft and often resulted in a death sentence. Homosexuality and marriage were two worlds apart.

Now days, most people marry for sexual attraction and for personal love. I doubt that Jesus would have been okay with refining the Hebrew marriage laws in a way that completely cut out a father's consent. The way that we practice marriage today is nothing like the way it was arranged when Jesus spoke of marriage in the Bible.

I'm going to go out of my comfort zone a little and try to explain the way I personally see things.


God wrote a perfect Book. It is without flaw. He then placed every Book in the hearts of everyone.

But since man is imperfect, his interpretation of the Book is imperfect.

Now some interpretations were written down on scrolls, copper, papyrus, parchment, and thanks to Guttenberg, paper. We look at those "interpretations" as God's Word.

We've stopped looking at the Perfect Version in each of our hearts.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
The Bible lists good and bad actions for the followers of that religion..

I understand that. But it doesn't list EVERYTHING that is acceptable, does it? It sounds like you're kind of assuming homosexuality is unacceptable because the bible doesn't say it acceptable. But the bible doesn't say buying a wedding dress is acceptable, either, or sending your child to public school, or driving a new car, or any number of behaviors that we all do.

If you are not a follower then I guess you don't have to worry about it.

I was a follower for 30 years. And I know quite a lot about the bible and the Christian religion.

I guess my point is this. If you think homosexuality is a sin, then don't practice it. Just like any other sin. If lying is wrong, don't do it. If taking the Lord's name in vain is a sin, then don't. I don't understand why homosexuality is a "special" sin to most Christians. They don't mind selling goods to a liar, an adulterer, an atheist, a fornicator... or allowing these people to marry... but when it comes to selling goods or allowing marriage to a homosexual, THAT is considered "supporting" the sin they engage in and they refuse to do it.

It's just confusing to me.

an odd double post

originally posted by: beezzer

The bible is a life path. But is it the only path? Like a manual, it can tell you how to repair or address something. But it cannot predict the outside circumstances that may affect your life.

Of course it isn't but you tell that to the fundamentalist Christians.. It is a guideline and to some degree I think it's meant to be followed on a collective scale also but some will call that indoctrinating the masses.. So I think it can somewhat predict outside of our personal lives but we have to be pretty switched on spiritually to see it.

We have learned so much since the writing of the bible. Does that negate the fundamental teachings? No. But we can look at the bible and take into context what was being taught by any given allegory.

They all have there good and bad, that's just life though, there is good and bad everywhere. The question is whether good can overcome bad..

As to whether or not we are down the right path on the global scene? I can't answer for anybody but myself. I try to stay true to the teachings of Jesus and try to think about what he would do in any given situation. I will never be as good or as right as Jesus. But it is an ideal I try to emulate. With all my faults.

a reply to: DarknStormy

I agree completely with you. My point, if i made a decent one, was the Dove and figs is seemingly less open minded. He may have the best intentions for people, yet i feel is closed off from outside views and refuses to accept them as he is "afraid" somehow it will be a blasphemy. And i wish he could put in his two cents into a great topic thread such as this. I believe that he would be the elephant in the room for the wrong reasons with good intent. That's all. It's just an annoyances of the hypocrisies of people. Practice what you preach.

Respects.