Why Does a Florida County Need Eight $18 Million Helicopters?

a reply to: jrod

I just saw your post, and jrod... I am not being deceptive, but sorry I am not getting into another debate with you on what you wrote or what you didn't write again. As for your claim that Chief Pilot John Coppola said that they received OH-58, even he himself stated, and I quote.

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The most recent addition is a UH-1H Huey chopper that arrived in May 2013 and will be used to help in firefighting and rescue operations. Coppola said it cost $2,000, but it needed some work. Replacing the machine's rotor blades and rotor shaft, as well as other maintenance, cost $12,000, Coppola said. To buy retail, he estimated it would have cost closer to $400,000.
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www.floridatoday.com... 2%5D

The video shows a UH-1H Huey model 204 all the way to the right in the hangar, from the perspective of the camera. And again, neither a UH-1H Huey that was used in the Vietnam war, nor an OH-58 would have originally commanded a price tag at 18 million each.

All this militarization of LEA's does tell me they are expecting riots in the U.S. That's the only logical reason for not only militarizing LEA's so much, but the amount of military equipment that we are talking about tells me they expect some really big riots.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

So they just instantly dropped to less than a million dollars per aircraft from the time the first one was built. The early runs were a lot higher than later runs. Until they proved they worked and the orders went up the costs were higher.

NASS has nothing to do with these helicopters. They were expanding anyway, and chose Brevard County because of the benefits.

They have a number of fixed wing and helicopter programs in the works. They were supplying wiring harnesses for airships, developed a new sliding cargo door for aircraft that have a door that opens outward, and were recently awarded two new govt contacts.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yeah meanwhile our military arsenal is being downsized somehow it makes sense to you that NASS is expanding their business in U.S. soil to maintain and repair military aircraft with ISR integration that will be sent overseas? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. When military contractors expect an increase in demand in their services to be used overseas they send their civilian contractors with security clearance to work overseas. Yet NASS is looking for people with security clearance as a plus and with experience in avionics ISR integration to be working on their new hanger in titusville FL.

NASS do state they do work with Law Enforcement Agencies, and the Detroit Free Press article states the equipment, and helos, seen in that database have been transferred to LEA's within the U.S.

Could the prices being shown be a typo 8 times? I guess it could be possible, but why make that assumption right away? Why your continuous attempts at assuming that it's all wrong?

First we do know as a FACT that LEA's are being militarized to the point of getting lots of mine resistant vehicles to be used within the U.S. alongside other military equipment which is only used for war. We do know as a fact that military equipment is indeed being given to LEA's as a way to circumvent the Posse Comitatus Act. We also know as a fact that NASS do work with LEA's and in a business model it makes a lot more sense to expand your business within the area where you expect the demand to increase, which would tell us the increase of demand will be within U.S soil. And this is happening meanwhile our military arsenal is being cut down for the most part.

BTW, about your comment for the 1 million drop down in price. What exactly are you talking about? The OH-58 would be valued at 11 million. From 11 million to 18 million that's a 7 million price tag difference.

a reply to: projectvxn

So tell me projectvxn, in your opinion, what does it tell you that meanwhile our military arsenal is being cut down there in an increase in militarization of LEA's within the U.S.?

In a business model, or even in a strategic tactical planning scenario does it make sense for a veteran business like NASS to expand their business and contract people with avionics ISR integration skills and experience to work in the U.S. if their expansion is to help with avionics repairs or maintenance on aircraft that will be sent overseas? Or would it make more sense to hire those people to work overseas if this NASS business expansion is indeed to work with our military? Then again there is the fact that the NASS website itself states they do work with LEA's.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The military is being downsized, so all work on current aircraft has to stop. Makes sense to me.

The OH-58 isn't the only helicopter offered by the DLA, or flown by the State Department or law enforcement. That was also for the D model, the most recent.

a reply to: Zaphod58

But it doesn't make sense that a business company that specializes on avionics ISR integration, which is only found in military aircraft, to expand their business when the military is downsizing. That is unless their expansion will be to meet the demands of LEA's within the U.S. which will be using military aircraft with IRS systems for "intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance" ops within the U.S.

BTW, yeah the most recent model of the OH-58D is the one that would cost about from 7 million to at most 13 million in today's market depending on how many you bought and who you ordered with. The other models would not be as much.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Have you bothered to look at things they do? You know, research into them? They have done the wiring harness for airships being developed, they've developed a cargo door for the Cessna 208, which is used by Special Forces, that slides open instead of opening outward like the standard cargo door.

They do a lot more than just ISR work. Yes, the military is downsizing, but that doesn't mean that SOF and other areas are shrinking. In fact the ISR field is expanding right now. There are a dozen UAVs under development for various agencies, that will all require work, besides the current military contracts they have.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes, I have seen some of the contracts they made, it still doesn't deviate from the fact that their expansion is not because the military needs it, but rather because LEA's are becoming more and more militarized and this equipment will be used for ISR ops within the U.S.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The military is not the only one that uses ISR equipment, and law enforcement isn't on the list of those that do.

Once again you're coming up with a conclusion and making the evidence fit.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The military is not the only one that uses ISR equipment, and law enforcement isn't on the list of those that do.

Once again you're coming up with a conclusion and making the evidence fit.

Are you sure about that?...

L-3 WESCAM designs and manufactures industry-leading multi-spectral and multi-sensor EO IR imaging and targeting sensor systems. Designed for ISR airborne, ground and sea-based missions, L-3 WESCAM’s sensor systems are used by military, homeland security and law enforcement agencies worldwide....

www.wescam.com...

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Law Enforcement/Military Applications

INTELLIGENCE/SURVEILLANCE/RECONNAISSANCE Aerial photographic images and high-definition video of an area of operation provide a level of intelligence that will serve to improve the operational planning process greatly. During the execution of these plans, the R.A.P.T.R. effectively places the eye of the tactical operator overhead, and establishes the advantage of owning the high ground. The ability to see over a hill or a structure prior to a dangerous approach is invaluable. The helicopter, by transmitting a live video stream to personnel on the ground allows them to see dangers well in advance and to modify the tactical plan accordingly. -

www.tacticalelectronics.com...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

They need that and more because you live there.
Obviously.


S&F

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

So now you have L-3 involved. Are they working with NASS too?

NASS didn't move down to Florida for Brevard County or any other law enforcement agency. Florida was the best choice for them to move to based on the unemployment rate, among other things. They had several choices, that wouldn't have made the least bit of sense for Brevard County to use if they had been chosen instead.

There are three other governmental agencies besides the military that have new ISR platforms in testing and development that will need support, plus the current military systems, plus the Special Forces platforms that they work with.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

So now you have L-3 involved. Are they working with NASS too?

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No, I am proving the fact that you obviously don't know that LEA's do use ISR systems. You claimed that LEA's do not use ISR systems, I proved you wrong.

As for your claim that this is for "current military systems, and special forces platform", again why do you keep trying to ignore the fact that NASS itself states they do work with LEA's?...

IT doesn't make sense whatsoever that a company like NASS would expand to meet military demands when the military is being downsized. However, LEA's are receiving more and more military equipment, including helos and fix wing aircraft with ISR systems. IT makes more sense that such expansion is to meet this NEW demand.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

They don't use classified ISR systems maintained by NASS. They don't have Apache helicopters, or their ISR systems, and NASS has nothing to do with them getting any helicopters.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Ah, just because you say so meanwhile the NASS website itself states the contrary. hum, I wonder who would I trust, the source itself that states they do work with LEA's or you who keep trying to ignore and deny what the evidence so far seems to show?...

As for your claim that NASS has nothing to do with them getting the helos? At the start of the thread I showed how LEA's are receiving military equipment through the 1033 program. The database given by the Detroit Free Press was provided by the Law Enforcement Support Office of the Defense Logistics Agency, so all the equipment shown in that database has been going supposedly to LEA's. I just don't understand why you keep trying to deny this. I never said that LEA's are receiving this through NASS, but through the DLA and the 1033 program...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

NASS had a choice of four locations to open a facility. Kentucky, Georgia, North Carolina, or Florida. They chose Florida due to a number of factors, none of which had to do with them getting helicopters.

So you're saying that they would have flown their helicopters to one of those other facilities for major maintenance? And got the money to do it where?

a reply to: Zaphod58

So you keep saying that their motives could not possibly be in any way related to Florida LEA's receiving so many helos from the military?

Look, NASS is not the only one offering their ISR services to LEA's around the nation. I do know that for many years LEA's have used "similar" ISR platforms, but it is a fact that in recent years they have been receiving more and more military rotary wing and fixed wing aircraft with military ISR systems in them, and NASS is not the only company offering their services to this increase in demand from LEA's.

SUMMIT AVIATION DELIVERS ITS FIRST OPERATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT ENHANCED AIRCRAFT

March 10, 2014


MIDDLETOWN, Del., March 6, 2013 – Summit Aviation, a Greenwich AeroGroup company, announced today that it has delivered its first Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) platform to a State Law Enforcement Department.

The modified Mahindra Aerospace GippsAero GA8 Airvan Astra new aircraft utilizes off-the-shelf commercial packages, in addition to Summit’s customized and installed features such as a full work station with moving maps and overlays, cross-cueing of various sensors, a 3D mapping aerial camera system and full motion video capability to enhance the mission capabilities of the operator.

“The delivery of this aircraft reinforces the cornerstone relationship Summit Aviation has developed with the law enforcement community,” said Summit Aviation’s General Manager Ralph Kunz. “These technically advanced aircraft and mission systems are vital to law enforcement agencies and their mission to protect and serve their communities.”
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www.summit-aviation.com...

Even the DHS has expressed the "needs for non-traditional support to emergencies including use of intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) platforms..."

Emergency and Disaster Response: Is the U.S. Better at It Now?

June 19, 2014


By Richard Pera, Dean of the School of Security and Global Studies at American Military University

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“While it is managed by FEMA, it is really a department-wide function.” According to Tarry, Napolitano created a “reserve corps” of volunteers across DHS which could be surged rapidly during any emergency; Superstorm Sandy was the first time this capability was utilized.

Tarry also highlighted “non-traditional” support to emergency response, including use of intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) platforms to support operational management of the environment: “Within the Office of Intelligence and Analysis, we worked very closely with FEMA to bring our ISR capabilities and how we manage ISR for border security into that environment.”
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inpublicsafety.com...

We also have this.

3 cities considering UAVs in police departments

1. North Dakota

OK a state, not a city but a two-year experiment by a North Dakota police agency has identified several key roles that UAVs could play in routine law enforcement operations across cities in the state.

The Grand Forks Sherriffs Department has accumulated about 100 flight hours and 200 hours in simulations with four UAVs says Alan Frazier, a retired officer and now adjunct professor at the University of North Dakota. Frazier expects police agencies to operate UAVs in the same manner as canine units today.
...
3. LA

The Los Angeles Police Commission will soon hold a series of public hearings to give the public a chance to weigh in on the use of drones by the local police department after receiving two drones from their Seattle counterparts.

The X6 UAVs are equipped with camera, video and infrared capabilities. According to an LAPD statement, they will only being considered for “narrow and prescribed uses” – such as keeping an eye on hostages or suspects barricaded in a building – rather than keeping a watchful gaze over citizens.

Police forces are “particularly interested in tactical small UAV’s for surveillance and reconnaissance, as many of these platforms are man portable and fit into a patrol car.”

What do you think? Are any of these cases likely to go ahead? These are only three examples, which other police departments are considering UAVs? What challenges do the police face?
...

www.totallyunmanned.com...

I did not include the city Islamabad because it isn't located in the U.S., and even thou these UAV's will not be armed military grade UAV's, this is another example showing the increase militarization that is occurring not only in the U.S., but also in other nations like the UK. There was a time when the use of ISR platforms were only used for military operations and most Americans would have been cautious about this increase militarization of LEA's, but I guess we are living in "a brave new world."

BTW, when I wrote that the LEA's have used for many years "similar" ISR platforms I was mainly referring to the use of cameras, and zoom in lenses on their helos. Now we have LEA's, and the DHS acquiring platforms with Electronic Signals Intelligence(ELINT), ISmulti-spectral and multi-sensor EO IR imaging and targeting sensor systems among other ISR systems.

Let me give you another example of what I am talking about.

California Counter-Drug Joint Task Force
146th Airlift Wing, Team Condor
“Standardized C-130 Sensor Pallet”
Sensor Requirement Summary

Introduction - The ANG has a unique mandate in supporting civil authorities for a variety of mission roles not typically undertaken by active military components under “Title 10” …… This requires that the ANG acquire and maintain unique capabilities to meet this challenge.
...
Electro-Optic (EO) Infrared (IR)
This type of technology is currently in use by many CD air support vehicles. It gives us the ability to detect, track and observe vehicles, individuals or areas of interest from long ranges (EO) and evaluate their temperature differences with infrared imaging (IR). Infrared sensors are helpful in the confirmation of indoor cannabis grow sites as well as the detection of other activities that generate heat. Laser illuminators could also be used to track LEA personnel and easily distinguish them from others during an operation. $ 250,000 to $2,000,000
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•ELINT – Electronic Signals Intelligence
The ability to evaluate the emission of electronic signals would give law enforcement the capability to possibly detect and triangulate on different and specific types of electronic equipment that emit a signal. The advantages of this type of technology should be evident. *It should be noted that this technology has security classifications and thus limits its use and who could operate it.
$79,200 demo only. Equipment not priced.
...

Link

BTW, yes I know that the California Counter-Drug Joint Task Force is part of the California military department, but do notice that they state throughout the paper that LEA's will be using these ISR platforms even when they caution that their use will be limited due to security classifications. In part that's where companies like NASS come into play, because they can work maintaining, and repairing the avionics integrated systems on these aircraft, since they require their technicians/mechanics to have top security clearance to work on them. Of course any LEA officer/pilot that would be allowed to fly any of these aircraft will have to meet certain requirements as well.

Even if these ISR platforms will be used mainly by military agencies, which the paper seems to imply in some sections, do notice that in the paper they do state the use of this military equipment will be in concert with LEA's to help them on their ops. So in fact they are trying to work around loopholes in the Posse Comitatus Act to use the military for law enforcement purposes.