"Right to Refuse Service" but not to Gays?

a reply to: Annee
Of course you don't.

You just need platitudes and hope.

a reply to: Annee
I find it strange how backwards some people of developed nations continue to be, surprising in fact.

This last 7 days on the SW coast of England I've passed 2 male/male and 1 female/female couples walking through town looking totally in love, hand in hand, and also passed a very unconvincing looking male to female transgendered person. Nobody stared or commented, I actually smiled to myself thinking how glad I am that I live in a place which is tolerant enough that these people felt comfortable enough to do so.

I am glad I do not live in the towns of many posters in this thread...and I'm a straight white male.

a reply to: grainofsand

Likewise dude, sad thing is that this entire thread could have been copy/pasted from the wedding cake one and everyone could be down the pub instead.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Annee
I find it strange how backwards some people of developed nations continue to be, surprising in fact.

This last 7 days on the SW coast of England I've passed 2 male/male and 1 female/female couples walking through town looking totally in love, hand in hand, and also passed a very unconvincing looking male to female transgendered person. Nobody stared or commented, I actually smiled to myself thinking how glad I am that I live in a place which is tolerant enough that these people felt comfortable enough to do so.

I am glad I do not live in the towns of many posters in this thread...and I'm a straight white male.

Oh, I know. I grew up in Los Angeles, not too far from Hollywood. It's a "live and let live" place, for the most part.

The last 20 years have been in Arizona on the SW border. Businesses blast Rush Limbaugh on their radios. The high school after 3 years of trying to get a "Gay Straight Alliance" ---- had to call in the ACLU.

But, even Arizona is progressing in this area of civil rights equality for LGBT.

originally posted by: Annee
Oh, I know. I grew up in Los Angeles, not too far from Hollywood. It's a "live and let live" place, for the most part.

Every contemplated what would happen to LA and Hollywood without the rural areas providing food and water?

You want to sit here and talk down one of the few rurals trying to reach out to you in honesty who has learned to speak your language and understand (and doesn't inherently disagree with) your morals... but you don't want to stop and contemplate the nature of the oxen you depend upon that allows you to focus on such "higher ideals".

LA and Hollywood? Really? # those places. The entire existence of those sorts of places is parasitic. The places that produce their food and water will get along just fine without their "entertainment"... and DEFINITELY without their "needs".

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight
a reply to: Annee
Of course you don't.

You just need platitudes and hope.

I don't need anything from you.

Civil equality is progressive, leaving Neanderthal thinking in the dust.

People will still whisper behind closed doors or rant anonymously on forums, but they have no lasting weight in live society.

a reply to: Annee
You're still blind enough to think I disagree with your "agenda" in principle, or that I'm remotely anonymous.

I assure you there are plenty of people (not just government spies) active on this forum who know exactly who my physical human body representative is.

I'm warning you about using the very demon to get what you want that will EAT YOU ALIVE when it's to their benefit.

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight
a reply to: Annee
You're still blind enough to think I disagree with your "agenda" in principle, or that I'm remotely anonymous.

No. I just don't really care what your viewpoint is. It's not anywhere in the realm of my thinking. I don't bang my head against brick walls.

I don't like you. (From what you post)

a reply to: Annee
I'm not putting myself on the line for you to like me.

I'm writing to the great great grandchildren of your generation.

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle
If people do not support a cause, they should not have to participate. Period.

Nobody is being asked to participate in anything. They are being told to simply do whatever service their business is providing regardless of the customer that is requesting it. That's all. If your business provides goods or services to the public then they need to provide them to the public. Period.

People are such pansies. It hurt my feelings! It caused me mental anguish! Mer-Mer-Herp-E-Dur!!! Life isn't fair.

Exactly. So why not quit being such a baby about it and just do your job like your supposed to do instead of whining about how you don't want to serve Gays because you don't like them??? I'm sure they don't like you either, so what. Life isn't fair. Get over it and just do your job.

Guess what - sexual preference is raw emotion. Just because I don't like the idea of a man sleeping with another man, or a woman with a woman doesn't make me a bigot. It just means I find it nasty. The same way I find the concept of rolling around in dog crap nasty.
If there was a group of people, which I'm sure there is, that enjoyed rolling around in dog crap, should I be forced to join or participate?

Go ahead and find it nasty. Hell, hate Gay people all you want, nobody is stopping you. But as far as you doing business with them, you don't have the right to treat them any differently than any other customer. Again, doing your job, whatever that is, doesn't mean you're required to go be gay with gay people or do what they do. You don't even have to support it either. You're just being told to do your job which is whatever the business is already doing.

No - because I don't agree with it.

Nobody said you have to agree with it, support it, join in on it, or anything else. Just do your job.

It doesn't mean I find you as a person disgusting or nasty, just a certain action you do. I enjoy eating sushi - others find it nasty. Should they be forced to watch me eat it until they are comfortable with it?

Not relevant.

I wonder how those in power would react if Neo-Nazi's, or the KKK demanded service. It's the same concept. But, I bet things would go different.

They would get the same service as anyone else. If you own and run a business open to the public then you probably already have served Neo-Nazi's and KKK members and didn't know it. Same with Gays, or Christians, or Satanists, or Anti-Establishment members, or members of Anon., or any other classification which isn't always visible or known simply by looking at someone.

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: grainofsand

Likewise dude, sad thing is that this entire thread could have been copy/pasted from the wedding cake one and everyone could be down the pub instead.

Lol, I totally agree, but no pub tonight, had a mad long weekend including a 'lock-in' til 6am so chilling at home with my cat for the next few days.
Couple of gay guys at the pub lock-in as well, but they chatted the same football and other stuff as the rest of us, so aside from the odd affectionate touch of a shoulder/hug or whatever you would never have realised...it's tragic how a gay person is more free and accepted in a constitutional monarchy like ours compared to 'the land of the free'.

Having paid attention to this issue with some interest, and giving it some thoughts the following can be stated:

The right to refuse service is a gray area of the law. In some instances a business can refuse to do business with a person or persons, and the law would support them. But here is where businesses are getting into trouble with the law and thus fined in the process. A business can refuse to do business with a person, that is true, but the moment that the excuse is based on the religious or uses something about the person such as gender or skin color or something else, then it becomes a legal issue for the state to get involved.

So in this case, if the business mentioned, simply stated, “No we are not interested in doing business with you.” And left it at that, then chances are the law suit would have not gone the way it had. But something the moment that it was mentioned about the nature of the service being a same sex marriage, then it becomes an act of discrimination.

If you read the actual opinion, rendered by the judge, it is very clear on where the violation happened, and the actual law itself as put out by the state of New York. As this is a public business, open to the public with public venues, not a private club, not a non profit organization, nor a religious one, the business owners can not simply pick and choose based on their views and use religion as an excuse. The law neither provides for or will support such actions.

Now had this been a non profit, affiliated with a particular church, or actual church property, with said church in control of what goes on, then it probably would have gone differently, and the law suit would have failed.
But it is open to the public, is not affiliated with any church, and thus is not entitled to the religious exemption, no matter how religious the owners happens to be. This is decision is based on the argument and notion, can a photographer who is Muslim, refuse to take pictures at a Jewish wedding? Chances are no, such would not be allowed to happen, unless said photographer was under the employ of say a mosque.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: angeldoll
a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

Nope. Sexual preferences. Same thing. Unless of course, you only engage in sex when you want to procreate. : )

Not when you are talking about procreation. Unless there are some kind of special talented gays that can all of a sudden procreate when they have sex....

Yeah. No. What?

It's really just simple.

Whatever your service is, you are required to provide that service to everyone.

In none of these cases did the LGBT customers ask for anything special. Not even 2 grooms on a cake.

a reply to: Annee
You are right. It's VERY SIMPLE.

If a person comes in requesting two grooms and a body suit "voluntary slave" urinating on each other while eating each other's poop (perfectly legal)... in my world you aren't required UPON THREAT OF FINE/PRISON to create those pieces of art and delivering such a service. Period end of story.

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight

Nope, in that case you are being made to produce something that is obscene, so the objection is not that you are prejudiced to the individual - you would refuse to make that item for for a straight couple, a gay couple, or a communist orgy involving transgendered chain smoking badgers.

Aw you edited, meh i should have quoted you.



2nd eta, point still stands though, especially as i like my badger analogy

I fail to see the issue.
A business can't refuse service to someone over race,religion,nationality etc etc.. why would sexual preference be any different?
Sure you can say it's against your religion but they aren't trying to force you to be homosexual, they want to buy some coffee or cake or whatever.

a reply to: skalla
And now we get back to the line. WHO is defining what is obscene?

What are you going to do when those you currently believe are obscene are in CHARGE of the government you once depended upon to protect you?

There is NOTHING illegal about those actions... therefore who is defining them as obscene? Are you NOW saying it's illegal for a gay urine/poop fetish couple to request a business to create a private wedding cake with such a topping? Are you going to put people in prison who do so in a private business transaction?

That's the entire damn point about using the assholes with guns to dictate what you think society should be.

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight
We are talking about gay relationships here, nobody is banned from urinating on each other, or eating each other's poop, solely on gender. Equally no business is forced to create those pieces either, because it is a cross-gender right between heterosexual adults.
Your argument is flawed for that reason.

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight

Obscene is widely defined as an act that is beyond the bounds of sensible common decency when acted out in public. A plain cake only offends asshats.