Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

a reply to: Annee

Well let's see, in my quest, I (at various times) attended, Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, Four Square, Mormon, Lutheran, Positive Thought, etc etc etc.

So, you attended all those different denominations, and everyone, 100% of them, feared God's judgement. I am Catholic, former Methodist, and I don't know anyone who fears God's judgement, and I can tell you with certainty that I, as a practicing Catholic, do not. So my guess is that you're painting Christians with something that you perceive them to be, not what we actually are.

Fundamentalists are the "fire and brimstone" types -- Catholics and mainline evangelicals are not, and do not preach a "Gospel of Fear."

a reply to: Annee

you met wiccan christians? how is that even possible?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

you met wiccan christians? how is that even possible?

I did not say they were Wiccan Christians.

I'm thinking the Biblical flood, which left a handful of people alive, and utterly destroyed everyone (and everything) on Earth has got to be the greatest example of mass murder in "history."

a reply to: adjensen

Atheism, not religion is the real force behind the mass murders of history is the title of this thread.

I have a personal 60 year experience in the Christian religion, I gave a bit of my opinion in that area. I am not going to justify it to you.

I stand by my personal experience. You don't agree, fine ---- but, I am not changing my opinion of my personal experience.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

you met wiccan christians? how is that even possible?

I did not say they were Wiccan Christians.

i thought that was an example of christians you had encoutnered. sorry.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

you met wiccan christians? how is that even possible?

I did not say they were Wiccan Christians.

i thought that was an example of christians you had encoutnered. sorry.

No. Just one of many experiences in religion.

I really just don't kno9w what to believe. I guess I have always considered myself more atheist than agnostic. I do feel that I personally think that there is something to the Universe that pulls things together using simple techniques in a fractal way. I personally feel as if there is some kind of mechanisms in this Universe that do seem "aware". I know humans are a flawed being with our 5 senses (possibly 6th) our perceptions of reality are pretty vague. Now I don't believe in an interactive god so I don't feel like I am being watched. I don't believe in an afterlife so that throws ghosts right out the window (though fun to watch Ghosthunters and that genre).

I pretty much think that for every person on this planet there is a unique system of belief for every one of them. I live in a very christian "community". Just about everyone here knows me and knows I have my own beliefs. My next door neighbor is a Pastor who missions in Brazil and he has opened up 2 Christian churches there (and that is hard in Catholic territory). But they all... when they try to convert or pray for me I tell them politely that they can pray but I have my own beliefs. I've told my neighbor that I just don't believe your kind of god because I feel I am lying to mysel to believe him. He tells me he will get with his wife and they both will pray me into heaven. I just laugh.

Why the hate between the main two groups just gets me. I mean, sometimes what Christians do kind puts me off. Like I went out with friends of mine. They left a tip with those little brochures and that didn't set right with me and I told them so. Told them that our waitress still has to live on this Earth which isn't exactly easy so why not be charitable? They took it well.

Anyway, I am rambling. Who cares what group did what in the past. That no longer matters outside of learning from it. It is today that matters. Arguments like these are just kind of silly if you really think about it. What does it matter in the here and now?

a reply to: Terminal1

Some people are just good people, and some are not.

There are spiritual atheists: www.spiritualatheism.com...

I don't believe any war is really about belief. War is about power, control, money.

Politicians (TPTB) start wars, not the people ------ the people just need to wake up and not be manipulated.

Being manipulated by belief is a tool.

a reply to: Annee

Atheism, not religion is the real force behind the mass murders of history is the title of this thread.

Well, the reason that I brought it up is because you said this:

In my experience Christians fear death because of a God's judgment. I have never known a Christian that did not fear death. And they live their life to appease an imaginary "being".

An atheist lives in the now. They try to create by doing a better world now. Their personal responsibility. They don't schlep it off to gain reward from an imaginary "being".

You're attempting to say that atheists are morally superior and better for the world because they don't "live by fear," as you falsely assert all Christians do.

I'll happily stack up the contributions to better the world that Catholic Services, USA or the United Methodist Committee on Relief do to those of any atheist organization you want to cite.

a reply to: adjensen

You are personally responsible for how you choose to interpret (misinterpret) another posters words.

Since I boycott the term moral -- I could not have possibly meant as you have chosen to interpret from your own thought pattern.

Please return to subject of thread.

a reply to: Annee

I'm still waiting to hear why you think atheists are better for the world than Christians, which is a point that you interjected, I did not. Where are all these philanthropic atheists that do more than Christian charities like Catholic Services USA or UMCOR?

a reply to: adjensen

I don't know what is going on here by denying the general consensus that Christians fear the wrath of god. The bulk of Christian teaching (starting at a very young age of indoctrination) teaches followers to fear the wrath of god. Are you seriously denying this? What starting point can we have if this is being denied? The bulk of the Christian pamphlets handed out on the street are specifically about the wrath of god and a fear of hell. Not to mention that putting children through this coercion is just straight up child abuse, it's absolutely ridiculous coming from the same people that claim that the Christian god is a loving god.

Admittedly, the stain on Christianity is the old testament, which you must also believe down to the word if you are a true believer. Additionally, by gods own word, getting into heaven is no easy task. The rules are very strict, and by those rules defined in both the new and old testament, really no one is getting in. So if you do believe in the Christian god, then yeah, you should be afraid. I haven't this fear as I see no evidence for this, or any of the other 1000s of gods that have been followed.

Again, if you choose to take your bible a la carte, cherry picking lightly at what will get you into heaven, then you are a partial-believer at best and are likely not getting into heaven anyway. Let's not even get started on the whole 'who reads the bible right thing'. From all the stories of about the Christian god, Hitler was probably fairly closer in following the teachings of the spiteful, genocidal, narcissistic, jealous, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleansing Christian god. But you think your interpretation is right? You are no more right than Hitler in this regard. A poorly written book(s) chock full of fear and hate clearly with the only known knowledge of bronze age Palestine… that people are still pushing, through bullying, and often force. I'm glad that society is slowly casting off the shackles, but we have a long way to go.

a reply to: okrian

The bulk of Christian teaching (starting at a very young age of indoctrination) teaches followers to fear the wrath of god. Are you seriously denying this?

Of course I'm denying it, because it isn't true, at least not for the vast majority of Christians.

I am reminded of something that Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, a long time ago:

There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.

You guys are criticizing a Christianity that mostly exists in your imaginations. That's in the general sense, there are definitely sects that preach hate, fear and bigotry, but they are thankfully small.

In other words, don't use an extreme example to paint all Christians with that brush, which is as irrational and unfair as someone saying that all atheists are mass murderers, just because Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were.

a reply to: adjensen

Wait a minute! Didn't you recently do an ATS Live radio show where you guys mocked and tore apart the hypothesis of one guys thread claiming that there is no "Hell"? I think your logic went something like, if there was no Hell, then Jesus wouldn't have needed to die to save us.

I believe you followed that "OF Course Hell Exists" segment with another mocking reincarnation and its adherents, because, you know, "Hell exists, otherwise....Jesus died in vain!

a reply to: windword

When did I say hell didn't exist?

What I said was that I'm not living in fear of judgement and that most Christians do not preach a "Gospel of Fear."

Neither of which has anything to do with the existence of hell.

a reply to: adjensen

Did Jesus die to save us from Hell? If we reject the teachings of the Bible are we going to Hell?

What is Pascal's Wager all about then, if not to hedge your bets against Hell?

If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).
infidels.org...

Yes, it isn't enough to belief death is the end, one MUST belief in eternal punishment! Clearly, the mainstream belief is, and the moral of Christianity is, that non-believers go to Hell, so best believe, even if you're merely faking your belief, just to hedge your bets!

Besides, there are 1000's of YouTube videos of Christians insisting that they were shown famous people, like Gandhi or Pope John II, in Hell in visions from "Jesus", just to reinforce anyone who still may belief that works can get one into Heaven is dead wrong! These videos have only one purpose, to scare people into submission.

a reply to: windword

These videos have only one purpose, to scare people into submission.

Who cares?

I already said, in this thread, that there are those who behave that way, but that they are a minority opinion and are not representative of Christianity as a whole, any more than mass murderers like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are representative of atheists as a whole.

a reply to: adjensen

No. Christians who believe in and promote the "Hell, fire and damnation" and "End Times" doctrine are NOT in the minority. It is the majority of Christian proselytization and the reason Christians feel the need to go out and "save" the world.

LOL, I have to give this thread a Medal for the most ridiculous of August.

How the hell.... do you even list war for the purpose of "STOPPING" religion as non religious war? Essentially we'd be saying that, if let's say your talking about a particular crusade for example (no individual reference needed) and that crusade killed 11 Million people then people fought back and killed 25 Million people and WON that the 25 Million deaths were "non religiously" motivated...

I'm sorry but... groups of people feeling the need to take on a religion because it makes their lives MISERABLE is absolutely death caused by religion.

You creeps think you can run around creating societies where some crazy dictator rules in the name of god you force people to live by your insane ideologies under not DEATH but "FEAR OF DEATH" then claim "religion isn't the cause of those deaths" when people fight back? REALLY

Maybe the religious types need to understand...

The death toll doesn't matter

some things are worse than death... and living under some crazy philosophy of bs while the human race rots in superstition, your books are burned, your life is controlled in irrational ways, every walking minute of your life is a lie, people assume power of you for no reason of sanity....

These are reasons to kill or die fighting...

And religion causes that across the board, so YES Religion was the cause of all 3 of those genocides you mentioned...