Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

a reply to: Annee
a reply to: adjensen


Atheist Sunday Assembly goes worldwide, the future is bright for non-believers

Klassified did a thread on it too.

Atheist 'mega-churches' take root across US, world

a reply to: Gryphon66

Indeed, the official “Nazi Party Philosopher”, Alfred Rosenberg, (later to be hanged at Nuremberg), appointed of course with Hitler’s consent, was totally opposed to Christianity. However, Hitler the politician was also aware that to achieve power he would need to win votes from the Catholic Centre Party and could not afford total alienation.

Hitler’s references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an “Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge” (the phrase is Burleigh’s own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

Source

What does Christianity mean today? National Socialism is a religion. All we lack is a religious genius capable of uprooting outmoded religious practices and putting new ones in their place. We lack traditions and ritual. One day soon National Socialism will be the religion of all Germans. My Party is my church, and I believe I serve the Lord best if I do his will, and liberate my oppressed people from the fetters of slavery. That is my gospel.

Goebbles

Honestly, I could go on and on. You need to read Goebble's diaries and the work of some Hitler/Nazi historians to get a full grasp on what role religion played.

Hitler was part of the catholic church in his youth because of his mother. There are even some doubt as to whether or not he was baptized. Though, I believe that he was.

If you do some more research, you will find that Hitler used religion as a propaganda tool, much like the modern Right Wing does today. By making statements about god/religion, Hitler was able to build the perception that he, and the Party, were doing god's work and were good christian people.

Of course, that was not the case.

A good German Christian woman of some means wrote a letter to a friend just weeks before Hitler committed suicide in 1945. This lady expressed outrage and emotional distress, for she had finally come to believe the rumors, that the "SS" had been systematically murdering Jews all during the war. This lady said, "This is totally outrageous and must stop. Why, someone should tell Adolf"!

Source

The entire "Hitler was a Christian/Catholic" narrative is misleading and complete propaganda. He DID NOT carry out his actions in the name of god or Jesus. His goal was to create a unified German State who's people worshiped at the alter of the best "religion".....National Socialism.

a reply to: ArnoldNonymous

Calling BS. Some a-holes always trying to ice skate uphill.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Perhaps you folks should state that it is your personal "belief" that Hitler wasn't Christian, or doesn't meet your criteria for being Christian, or that you don't want to acknowledge that a Christian committed the acts that he did, but your simple denials are merely your opinion, not fact.

Perhaps you should state that it is your personal "belief" that Hitler WAS a Christian...

Your definition of 'Christian' is ALSO merely your opinion, and certainly nothing to do with facts.

You can SAY you are a Christian until you are blue in the face.

Contrary to what religion says, saying or believing one is a Christian does not MAKE it so.

Man's definition of 'believer' is not the same as God's definition.

God is not interested in your claims...

God says SHOW me.

God is looking for the "doer" not the "hearer."

Hell is FULL of so called 'believers'.

God told Howard Pittman during his NDE that not all the sayers would be in heaven, but all the doers would be.

The two angels escorted me to Hell. I then saw many pastors, elders, and deacons in Hell. I asked the angel, “I know them. They had served God faithfully while on the Earth. They had died some time ago. We all had thought they were in Heaven with God. But now, I see them all in Hell and they are crying out that it is so hot! Why are they here?” There were so many pastors, elders, deacons and all other lay believers.

The angel answered, “Pastor Park Yong Gyu, a person can appear to be a true follower of Christ on the outside but God knows the heart. There are multitudes of churches on the Earth and many of the churches are filled with many people. However, most of them are not true Christians. They are but church attendants. The true churches will firmly believe in Heaven and a Hell. The lives of many Christians are in chaos because they do not firmly believe in Heaven and Hell. When one soul enters Heaven, one thousand cursed souls enter Hell. The rate of Heaven and Hell is 1 to 1000.” (Matt 7:14)

Christians in Hell

Bishop Wilfred Lai is the founder and senior Pastor of Jesus Celebration Center in Mombasa, Kenya and it is a church of over 15,000 members. One day he asked the Lord how many of them were ready for heaven and the Lord told him only 200. Only 1% of that church is going to heaven! Dr. Lai said that some pastors have created large groups of sinners meeting in the name of God. “What you have are not churches, but large congregations of sinners.”

Message from Pastor Wilfred Lai

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Annee
a reply to: adjensen


Atheist Sunday Assembly goes worldwide, the future is bright for non-believers

Klassified did a thread on it too.

Atheist 'mega-churches' take root across US, world

I don't think the atheists call it "church". Outsiders refer to it as a "church".

I'm all for atheists organizing. But, I am very skeptical of any regularly Weekly scheduled "mega" gatherings.

a reply to: Annee

I understand that.

What I'm hearing from people who are into this sort of thing is that it gives them a sense of community. And, since many atheist come from religious backgrounds, the social aspect of meeting with like minded people, networking, promoting causes and community projects, etc., in a tax exempt environment and tapping a potential "voter block" is appealing and fills a gap that many atheist feel needs to be filled.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Annee

I understand that.

What I'm hearing from people who are into this sort of thing is that it gives them a sense of community. And, since many atheist come from religious backgrounds, the social aspect of meeting with like minded people, networking, promoting causes and community projects, etc., in a tax exempt environment and tapping a potential "voter block" is appealing and fills a gap that many atheist feel needs to be filled.

OK. I am atheist, and I have been following what's going on. I am fully aware 2 comedians started an atheist "church" that kind of parodied church rituals. Also, that there's always been groups formed of like minded people, including atheists.

There's always been atheist "meet ups", but it's kind of like gays coming out of the closet. It used to be you could get fired for being atheist, which I'm sure still happens even though it's illegal.

I was raised primarily in a positive thought church, which included some atheists. So I do understand how some non-believers might miss that belonging, etc.

There's also Spiritual Atheism: www.spiritualatheism.com...

Overall I absolutely support organized gatherings of like minds.

But, it's the religious and the media that are primarily exploiting atheist "mega churches" for sensationalism.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

I understand that your post reflects your opinion of the opinion of others.

Others with a clear agenda to distance Christianity from Nazism.

From the description of the site "Bede's Library"

The aim of Bede's Library is show how a person from a scientific background came to Christianity and has had his faith strengthened rather than weakened by argument and reason. It is intended for anyone who is interested in these subjects and wants to see how having faith does not mean sacrificing intellectual integrity.

Fair enough.

However, don't you think that direct quotes from Hitler, from the Nazi Party platform, Goebbels himself outweigh the narrative of Christian apologists that Hitler and the Nazis were "anti-Christian."

You can see references directly from the contemporaneous words of Hitler, Goebbels and other high-ranking Nazi Christians that they are defending themselves from those accusations.

They address the issue and yet maintain that they are Christian.

Cherry-picking a Goebbels QUOTE regarding his near-religious passion and zeal for the Party and for his Fuhrer is one thing; but you totally ignore the statements I posted, and a myriad of others easily available.

Goring of the SS was the most pagan representative among the Nazis so much so that the Party eventually has to rein him in and create laws against supposedly "supernatural" pursuits.

Hitler was clearly a Catholic and a Christian and the evidence for that claim overwhelmingly obvious in his own statements and claims by any stretch of the meaning of the words that "X is a Christian."

We don't get to decide 75 years or so later, what we want the truth to be.

In my opinion.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Why would I say that? It's not true.

It is not my "belief" that Hitler was a Catholic and a Christian. It is a fact attested to by his own recorded words and the recorded words of his contemporaries who knew him.

"My definition" of Christian? What is that per se? Did I define Christian somewhere? Nope.

The rest of your post is an exercise in meaningless semantics --- made even more meaningless by your usage of "God" as a source of "authority."

Usually, people who believe that "God speaks to them" are considered mentally ill.

Oh, and ditto the above on your threats and references to "Hell" ... sadistic fantasies prove nothing.

Well, they say something about the folks that believe in such ... but that's all.

Best,

a reply to: Gryphon66

The article I linked to from Bede's Library is a well-resourced piece written by Edward Bartlett-Jones. At the bottom of the page it say this:

The author of this article is an agnostic and an amateur historian of 20th Century German history.

The information he gives in the piece is very accurate and I confirm that through my own research in to Hitler and the Nazis. I don't have a Hitler avatar because I think he has great dance moves. By the way, I'm agnostic as well.

The other quote came directly from Goebble's diary.

Diary entry for October 16, 1928

If you read his diary, you will find that he says some pretty interesting things when it comes to religion. Things like this:

Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity.

Source

As far as what Hitler actually said, you do realize that Hitler was the master of propaganda? Right? He would say anything he had to help aid his goals and anyone that read in to the subject knows that Hitler pandered heavily to the Catholics and Christians.

Check out the wikipedia link I provided above and read what it says about his rhetoric. It's very interesting and will give you a proper perspective when learning about this issue.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

Do you think that further comparisons of our interests and research regarding Hitler and the Nazis will get us any closer to the truth of the matter?

My interests (and they extend not only to the Nazi period but most of German history and specifically the relationship of religion to German culture) are what they are. My research is what it is, as is yours.

Vaguely gesturing to yourself as an authority based on your interests is just not a sound argument.

I have offered direct facts regarding the matter from primary sources. You have offered apologist arguments.

I'm fine to let folks examine the material and form their own opinions.

Physical Evidence of the Nazi-Christian Connection

Best,

Hitler said a lot of things.

I think it's pretty easy to pick and choose an avenue you want to go down and find source to back it up.

However, atheism is not a belief. That is fact. No one comits an act in the "belief" of atheism.

a reply to: Annee

Of course, neither I or anyone else has the ability to know what Hitler's actual inner beliefs were. I would not pretend (and haven't by the way) pretended to know. I only know what he said, and what others (contemporary others) said about him; that's what I reported.

Enough about that; I suggest folks look at the information and decide for themselves.

As to some kind of organized "atheism" throughout history, that's merely, simply and obviously untrue.

The word points to an absence or lack of superstitious belief.

The current trend to make everything social is more than likely temporary.

There is certainly no historical basis for Atheist wars, et. al.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I listen to talk radio a lot.

I've heard a couple "experts" on Hitler. How much was him and how much was his advisers is debatable.

What I get out of it is --- he was Narcissistic. He used the church, whether he was a true believer or not.

He reminds me of those like Ponce de Leon searching for a myth.

Today we have the Pleiadians. Blond, blue eyed, humanoids who may be our Creators or even ancestors (speculative). What did Hitler know? Or think he knew? Is it coincidence?

I think with Hitler, it goes beyond factual and/or reality comprehension.

a reply to: Annee

Annee, granted on all points.

"Hitler" is at this point a cultural phenomenon. The idea that we can even approach the human reality of the man himself is questionable, although, I would suggest looking at his art, if anyone is interested.

I get nothing out of Hitler being accepted as a "Christian" or not, really. With the exception of fairly ridiculous assertions like the OP in the thread, coupled with all the cliched "Hitler was a master manipulator, doncha know?" comments, it's obvious that some are so wrapped up in their own images and ownership of "what Christianity is" that they will ignore direct facts.

It's all the same to me. Anyone who is aware of any history of the late 19th early 20th century knows that anti-Semitism was a LOT more prevalent and acceptable than it is today.

The Nazis didn't arise in a vacuum.

(And they weren't "atheists.")

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Anyone who is aware of any history of the late 19th early 20th century knows that anti-Semitism was a LOT more prevalent and acceptable than it is today.

I remember it from the 50s. Some people were very outspoken.

Most whispered and kept it behind closed doors.

a reply to: Annee

There are groups all around.
You would be surprised how many atheists there are that you interact with on a daily basis.

originally posted by: haarvik
a reply to: Annee

There are groups all around.
You would be surprised how many atheists there are that you interact with on a daily basis.

Like me?

It's still rarely brought up in casual conversation.

But, I like the direction it's going.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: ArnoldNonymous

Russia

www.conservapedia.com...

It has been estimated that in less than the past 100 years, governments under the banner of communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 and 259,432,000 human lives.[18] Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.[19] Richard Dawkins has attempted to engage in historical revisionism concerning atheist atrocities, but was shown to be in gross error.

Please, please don't use Conservapedia as a source. It's total drivel and is dying quietly.

to my thinking, theists would have a far lesser fear of mass extermination because their belief in an afterlife assuages their moral basis. for atheists participating in mass murder, they are undermining the very principle by which they have determined to have a meaningful existence. kill or be killed is a grim and stagnant position to take no matter how you look at it. my two cents. ciao.