Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

originally posted by: TzarChasm
to my thinking, theists would have a far lesser fear of mass extermination because their belief in an afterlife assuages their moral basis. for atheists participating in mass murder, they are undermining the very principle by which they have determined to have a meaningful existence. kill or be killed is a grim and stagnant position to take no matter how you look at it. my two cents. ciao.

What?

In my experience Christians fear death because of a God's judgment. I have never known a Christian that did not fear death. And they live their life to appease an imaginary "being".

An atheist lives in the now. They try to create by doing a better world now. Their personal responsibility. They don't schlep it off to gain reward from an imaginary "being".

originally posted by: Brooke1990
As woogleuk said, Hitler was not an atheist..

But WWII was not a religious war.... I also do not see you debate Russia/China that outlawed religion and both those countries during the height of their mass killings make Hitler look like a saint.

Lets not forget Pol Pot.. millions killed in a few short years...religion was banned. He had school children torture people to death...visit the killing fields one day to get an idea of the shear magnitude of it all...

Japan was not religious either during their "bad" years, and neither is North Korea...

a reply to: Xtrozero

Howdy,

In science, when one is observing phenomena, one must take care to not confuse correlation of events/variables with causation of events/variables.

The fact that nonreligious entities have committed atrocities is as irrelevant as the fact that religious entities have also committed atrocities. Humans fight wars for purely human reasons, whether they use religion as a tool to do so as was the case for the Crusades, or not.

Now, you replied to something that is a fact, Hitler was not an atheist. Note that he never called himself an atheist...
en.wikipedia.org...

Certainly it is quite difficult to ascertain just what Hitler believed, and certainly he might have held anti-Christian sentiment, but he certainly seemed a deist, as far as I've seen. That said, even if Hitler were an atheist (or any other person who has acted toward genocide, for that matter) it is not atheism that made the decision for war. It was not an atheistic movement specifically geared toward destroying religion and only destroying religious influence. War is fought for material purposes.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
to my thinking, theists would have a far lesser fear of mass extermination because their belief in an afterlife assuages their moral basis. for atheists participating in mass murder, they are undermining the very principle by which they have determined to have a meaningful existence. kill or be killed is a grim and stagnant position to take no matter how you look at it. my two cents. ciao.

What?

In my experience Christians fear death because of a God's judgment. I have never known a Christian that did not fear death. And they live their life to appease an imaginary "being".

An atheist lives in the now. They try to create by doing a better world now. Their personal responsibility. They don't schlep it off to gain reward from an imaginary "being".

if a christian fears death, that says a lot about the "eternal salvation" they sold their soul for.

if murder becomes a simple matter of business, then the atheists have much more to fear because there is no second chance for them. one shot and thats it. thats a pretty good reason to be afraid of war.

a reply to: Annee

In my experience Christians fear death because of a God's judgment. I have never known a Christian that did not fear death.

I am a Christian, and I do not fear death.

And they live their life to appease an imaginary "being".

What evidence do you have that God is imaginary?

And I live my life by Christ's teaching not to appease anyone, but rather because it is the right way to live my life.

originally posted by: hydeman11
Certainly it is quite difficult to ascertain just what Hitler believed, and certainly he might have held anti-Christian sentiment, but he certainly seemed a deist, as far as I've seen. That said, even if Hitler were an atheist (or any other person who has acted toward genocide, for that matter) it is not atheism that made the decision for war. It was not an atheistic movement specifically geared toward destroying religion and only destroying religious influence. War is fought for material purposes.
Sincere regards,
Hydeman

I agree to a point, and I think the OP's title is kind off as to what maybe is the true underlining discussion. I would rather have the title say "nonreligious reasons cause more mass killings than religious reasons", but it doesn't so in the strict sense of the OP's title, you are right that Hitler was not a self proclaim atheist, though as you suggest, we really do not know what he was.

When we look at any mass killing events there are motivators involved and the really big ones have used nationalism as a motivator, and then would come religion or just plain greed. Looking back at Russia/China as they outlawed religion to make nationalism their one and only motivator they also happened to be the two biggest mass killings in human history, so in the strict sense of the OP's title it may be correct with these two cases if we knew whether the leaders where true atheist or not even though both were very Godless events.

When religion is the motivator there seems to be a course direction back to a moral compass heading at some point since most religions do have a fundamental moral base in their teachings and views. When we use other motivators the moral compass goes out the window and humans really show just how evil we can be. My other example of Pol Pot where he killed all educated, religious leaders, elders etc in the millions during a few short years, and he killed them in horrendous ways shows just how bad one person can get in a very non-religious event.

As we come back to Atheism, as you say, this is a slippery slope since we really do not define whether we are talking about a true atheist in belief or just non-religious/godless events leading up to mass killings. Statistics would suggest that the true atheists has not been the force behind most mass killings since their numbers are rather small and even smaller in the past. A person can live a godless life but still think that maybe there is something more out there, so such as Pol Pot, was he a true atheist? Who knows, but his acts were not aligned with any religious motivator and he did not fear any kind of judgment, so maybe the term atheist is rather moot in the cases where behavior is not motivated by religion, making religion not a factor either.

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Annee

In my experience Christians fear death because of a God's judgment. I have never known a Christian that did not fear death.

I am a Christian, and I do not fear death.

1st, let's get it straight. I was or considered myself Christian most of my life. That's about 60 years worth.

Although I never stopped questioning, I embraced the idea of being Christian for about 60 years.

It was only 7 years ago I completely stepped out of the "God circle" ---- and have never regretted it. It was like a weight was lifted off me ---- I was free to live my life for me, to be solely responsible for my effects on this world.

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

why would a christian fear god unless that christian hasnt been a true christian?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

if a christian fears death, that says a lot about the "eternal salvation" they sold their soul for.

I agree, but Christians live in a mindset "I'll never be good enough". They are sinners, born in sin, always asking for forgiveness from sin, yada yada.

if murder becomes a simple matter of business, then the atheists have much more to fear because there is no second chance for them. one shot and thats it. thats a pretty good reason to be afraid of war.

Not believing in a god does not mean you don't believe in some kind of afterlife.

Atheists are individuals, they are not a "group think" or "group non-think".

Atheists are individuals. Atheist PHILOSOPHY, is the thought, belief of the individual. That thought/belief can be anything except belief in a god.

Atheist has one meaning and one meaning only: lack of belief in a god.

Not every atheist is a "hard" atheist.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

why would a christian fear god unless that christian hasnt been a true christian?

"TRUE" Christian, really?

Is that like "TRUE" American?

a reply to: Annee

well then, i guess the human species is just naturally destructive. veni vidi vici and all that jazz.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

why would a christian fear god unless that christian hasnt been a true christian?

"TRUE" Christian, really?

Is that like "TRUE" American?

have you never met someone who claims to be christian but doesnt show it?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

why would a christian fear god unless that christian hasnt been a true christian?

"TRUE" Christian, really?

Is that like "TRUE" American?

have you never met someone who claims to be christian but doesnt show it?

Let me put it this way.

In my entire life, I have met maybe 4 people I would consider as "Walked in His footsteps".

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

why would a christian fear god unless that christian hasnt been a true christian?

"TRUE" Christian, really?

Is that like "TRUE" American?

have you never met someone who claims to be christian but doesnt show it?

Let me put it this way.

In my entire life, I have met maybe 4 people I would consider as "Walked in His footsteps".

if getting straight a's is more important that just doing your best, then i suggest investing in a new insurance plan.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

why would a christian fear god unless that christian hasnt been a true christian?

"TRUE" Christian, really?

Is that like "TRUE" American?

have you never met someone who claims to be christian but doesnt show it?

Let me put it this way.

In my entire life, I have met maybe 4 people I would consider as "Walked in His footsteps".

which seems to support my theory that people ask too much of themselves when it comes to spirituality. seems we would rather be dead than human.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your mindset.

a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

Then you spent 60 years hanging around some pretty weird Christians. Apart from fundies, I don't know that I know anyone who fears the judgement of God in death. I know that I certainly do not.

a reply to: Annee

I agree, but Christians live in a mindset "I'll never be good enough". They are sinners, born in sin, always asking for forgiveness from sin, yada yada.

That line of thinking comes from the mind set of Paul... in that you're a filthy worthless sinner

You might find Jesus said nothing of the sort...

In fact He said "be perfect" like your Father in heaven...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Annee

I agree, but Christians live in a mindset "I'll never be good enough". They are sinners, born in sin, always asking for forgiveness from sin, yada yada.

That line of thinking comes from the mind set of Paul... in that you're a filthy worthless sinner

You might find Jesus said nothing of the sort...

In fact He said "be perfect" like your Father in heaven...

I deal in real people. Not books.

How or what they interpret is of no real interest to me.

Just saying.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

why would a christian fear god unless that christian hasnt been a true christian?

"TRUE" Christian, really?

Is that like "TRUE" American?

have you never met someone who claims to be christian but doesnt show it?

Let me put it this way.

In my entire life, I have met maybe 4 people I would consider as "Walked in His footsteps".

which seems to support my theory that people ask too much of themselves when it comes to spirituality. seems we would rather be dead than human.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your mindset.

the most prevalent forms of theism in the modern world impress upon their followers the importance of breaking away from the psychology - and biological underpinnings - that are not only common but crucial to the many species from whom we take our own biology and psychology. in short we are not supposed to be animals. the whole reason we are disgraced is because we are animals. as animals, we are filth, and so we must spend our lives training ourselves to be something other than animal, something other than material-oriented. even though our every move is influenced by the same laws that drive the creatures we declare inferior to us.

that is what i mean when i say our spirituality asks too much, and that we'd rather be dead than human. in some cases we would rather put ourselves in chains to exist forever as wisps of light than be free for a hundred years as walking bags of meat and water. this is my perception.

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Annee

I stand by my statement: in the 60 years that I considered myself Christian ---- I never met a Christian who did not fear the judgment of God in death.

Then you spent 60 years hanging around some pretty weird Christians. Apart from fundies, I don't know that I know anyone who fears the judgement of God in death. I know that I certainly do not.

Well let's see, in my quest, I (at various times) attended, Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, Four Square, Mormon, Lutheran, Positive Thought, etc etc etc.

The nicest most caring, sincere, loving I've met were Wiccan. But, I don't believe in rituals.

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Maybe that's why no one accuses Wiccans of wars and killing.