Traumatized by Christian Dogma & The Evangelical "Good News Club"

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

I have know many fair and loving christians that really love their kids and don't go in for screwing their kids up mentality. Even in the church most don't go for this approach negative but love their kids.

So have I.

I'm talking about the ones who DO "go in for screwing their kids up" mentally, even though that is decidedly NOT their intention.
How many times do I have to state that I am trying only to educate people on outcomes? If you raise a kid with violence, poor nutrition, self-loathing, and psychologically induced fear - you will be providing the world with yet another violent, unhealthy, hater.

Is that what you want?

I didn't think so.

Well I will go one step further and suggest in the case I spoke of above this parent had to know, a spiritual psychopath, that she was hurting her kid and took some perverse pleasure from it. At some point she just became an evil person with a bible in their hand so to speak. You know? Some one could take select passage out of context. Say for example "go hang yourself" in reference to Judas, convince the kid he was judas for fighting back, having a mind of its own ect and after a while if the kids not strong enough may go through life with this monkey on its back. Its a christian Pharisees, filled with hate and all corruption masquerading at the thing.

I was also raised int hat type of environment. Rock music was evil, magicians are evil, TV shows were evil and on it goes. I was going to hell. No, I was LIVING in hell! I as well quit school and got my GED just to get away from the madness. I know plenty of decent xians. But I see this from a different perspective. All one need do is to step back and really look at our society. Everything about it is dictated by our religious beliefs. Our laws, our government, our taxes, everything is governed by religion. Indoctrinating the young ensures a new crop of believers to continue the work of controlling the masses. That's what religion was designed to do. As long as religion dictates government policy we will continue to have wars and division. I hope one day I live long enough to see an atheist as president and the majority of congress atheist as well. What a different world it would truly be. No matter how hard they try, our current crop of leaders cannot separate church/state.

Therein lies the heart of all problems we currently face as a society.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: peter vlar

Let me ask, do you think religions that don't allow modern medicines to treat their children is child abuse?

If it leads to the harm, injury, illness or death of that child, absolutely.

Let me add though, that for the most part, I believe that what other adults teach their children in the privacy of their own homes isn't really my business unless they are expressly instilling negativity and leading their children down a path that leads them to claim a moral superiority over people like myself who choose not to pray to their god.

In my personal experience, the level of religious devotion is in far too many instances equitable with their level of hypocrisy when it comes to exuding "Christian values". The world would be a much nicer place if people operating at that level could try to understand that morality is not the sole domain of the religious. I have 3 kids myself and think I've done a pretty good job of teaching them to be kind, courteous and compassionate. For example, my very undersized 12 year old goes out of his way to stand up for, and refuse to back down from the bullies, who frequently target a high functioning autistic kid in his class.

People need to understand that you can be agnostic or atheist but still walk the same path that good ole JC would like people to. I just don't believe in all the supernatural aspects of it. The message attributed to Jesus is a good one and treating people with kindness, respect, compassion and love is exactly how I want my kids to live their lives. We just do it without needing to add god into the mix.

A slightly humorous anecdote I can toss out quickly after talking to my 6 year old daughter... She told me she believes in 3 things. God, Jesus and heaven. I asked her where she learned about all of that because honestly, I was a little perturbed that someone else was tossing religious cookies down my kids throat. Turns out she learned about them from watching Family Guy and that as long as Peter Griffin is friends with Jesus she will believe in him lol

a reply to: Logarock

I changed my post from "mythology" to religious Biblical interpretation.
Okay?

Can we still talk?

originally posted by: beezzer
What are the solutions. . . . . . .

Education. Like this thread. Certainly not government control. People are free to teach their kids whatever they want, but just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. I honestly don't think many religious folks are even aware of the damage they're doing to their kids. If they were, perhaps they'd stop going to the churches they attend and find a more loving, inclusive group to congregate with. Religion can be taught with love. At home. There doesn't need to be all the guilt, fear and shame associated with modern religion.

If I had kids, I'd teach them love, integrity, honesty, compassion, etc. And I'm an atheist. These are all qualities that Jesus of the bible taught. People don't have to be involved in modern religion to teach their children these tenets.

We can't make people raise their children any differently, but we can work to educate them. I wouldn't be opposed to the government offering (not requiring) to educate parents on what effects religious indoctrination has, but then it's up to the parents to choose what to do. Once they have an education, they can make a free and educated choice.

I was screwed up for years because of the strict religious upbringing I had. Still am to a degree. It takes a lot of work to get over some of that crap.

a reply to: haarvik

Indoctrinating the young ensures a new crop of believers to continue the work of controlling the masses. That's what religion was designed to do. As long as religion dictates government policy we will continue to have wars and division.

Yep!
That.
Thanks.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

We can't make people raise their children any differently, but we can work to educate them. I wouldn't be opposed to the government offering (not requiring) to educate parents on what effects religious indoctrination has, but then it's up to the parents to choose what to do. Once they have an education, they can make a free and educated choice.

Thank you.
That is exactly my point.
As long as they know their options, and the consequences of some of those options, that's all we can do.
That's all I'm trying to do.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I will never understand what drives people to ridicule,
what others share as an accepted way of explaining existence
and consciousness. Because people are convinced that mankind
has a purpose, thru a superior being, realising the thought of us being
the ultimate big to do, in existence? Is really quite laughable at best.

And furthermore not bringing a better explanation to the table, or
even putting ones own belief on the table, to be ridiculed. As the
use of such labels as sky genie, do indicate you wish to engage in.
Despite the obvious reserve you seem to abandon? And all to tell us
how you indoctrinate your own child, by filling her head with prejudice
against certain ideas. Because you've decided they're ignorant?
Way to go!

originally posted by: randyvs
I will never understand what drives people to ridicule,
what others share as an accepted way of explaining existence
and consciousness.

I'm sure you've ridiculed other people's beliefs, whether they be religious, political or personal. It's something we all do. You just called MM's beliefs "laughable, at best". That's ridiculing. Don't fall off that horse - it's a long drop.

Just because someone doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean we think mankind is the "ultimate big to-do". I personally believe we're animals. No "higher" or better than any others. And I'm not AT ALL afraid to lay my beliefs on the table and have, many times. This is not the thread for that, however.

We ALL teach our children the best way we know how. Education can provide a alternative to fear, guilt, shame and judgment.

a reply to: randyvs

As I eluded to in my previous post, the problem is these indoctrinations wind up being the philosophy of our leaders and their religious dogma become the foundations of our society. Just look at the middle east. That is what happens when fundamental religion dictates policy. It's one thing to live and let live and base your governing on what is best for all. It's a completely different ballgame when those policies are steered by your religious beliefs and you start forcing everyone to conform to your beliefs structure. A very slippery slope indeed.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I'm sure you've ridiculed other people's beliefs, whether they be religious, political or personal. It's something we all do. You just called MM's beliefs "laughable, at best". That's ridiculing. Don't fall off that horse - it's a long drop.

Damn right I do! But only in retaliation ever and only then,
to demonstrate as I just did that really any chosen view.
Makes no more sense than the next. But never do I take such
childish initiative and straightup bag on anyones beliefs. So you're
incorrect in your assumption.

Don't worry bout me I'm well acquainted with horses.

. It's something we all do.

All deepends on who we is, don't you think?

a reply to: haarvik

Christ never took anything by force and certainly I
know of no use of force as per your post. The only thing I'm
trying to convince anyone of is to comply to what the OP
designated from the get go. Even tho she herself had to redact.
But that's to her credit in my view. Tho that may be worth ridicule
also.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: MystikMushroom

I will never understand what drives people to ridicule,
what others share as an accepted way of explaining existence
and consciousness.

I found that to be...highly ironic. I can remember a time only a couple of years back where you frequently mocked and ridiculed myself and my beliefs Because they differed from your own.

Because people are convinced that mankind
has a purpose, thru a superior being, realising the thought of us being
the ultimate big to do, in existence? Is really quite laughable at best.

I don't think there are anymore secular people who feel that way than there are Christians in America wh get up on their high horse and pass judgement on everyone publicly while acting like complete hypocrites behind closed doors. A few far right ,highly religious people in government as well as high profile religious figures who enjoyed sex with prostitutes, some of the same gender and drug fueled hotel room orgies come to mind right off the bat. Even in Anthropology...us evil believers in the true antichrist, Evolution, we view humans as just another animal without giving a thought to whether or not we are the bees knees.

And furthermore not bringing a better explanation to the table, or
even putting ones own belief on the table, to be ridiculed. As the
use of such labels as sky genie, do indicate you wish to engage in.

Doesn't that kind of go against some of the most basic tenets of Christianity? What would Jesus say about your zeal for ridiculing and disappointment at not being able to ridicule someone just because they disagreed with you?

And all to tell us how you indoctrinate your own child, by filling her head with prejudice
against certain ideas. Because you've decided they're ignorant?
Way to go!

Are we reading the same thread? I just went back and looked through the entire thing and there wasn't one mention by the poster in question related to them even having a child let alone how and what they teach said children. Even if that were the case, as long as those beliefs don't affect you personally, what difference does it actually make what someone else teaches their child? It's no more your business what morals and values I instill into my kids than it is my business how you impart your own upon your offspring.

I think you would be surprised at how well even young children can think for themselves as long as you approach it properly. My kids know that I don't believe in or have any use for anybody's god or gods yet my 6 year old says she believes in god. I tell her what I think and why and then allow her to come to her own conclusions and ask just about anything she wants because I would rather arm her with the knowledge to think for herself than indoctrinate her even if it means she develops a belief system I disagree with.

After all, isn't that the type of love Jesus supposedly preached? Love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek? Compassion? Respect?

You know that I consider you a friend and while we don't see eye to eye at all when it comes to religion, I've always had respect for you and how deeply you defended your beliefs so please don't take my comments personally but sometimes you've gotta call it how you see it.

a reply to: peter vlar

I found that to be...highly ironic. I can remember a time only a couple of years back where you frequently mocked and ridiculed myself and my beliefs Because they differed from your own.

Oh really I fail to see the irony Peter. And as I said I don't
deny it. You can look back to those conversations yourself tho
and damn well see who drew first blood. See I make a point not to
and really see no difficulty in not doing so initially. But I can rock
with worst of 'em. Which is reasonably why you remember so well.


And I was hoping most people know damn well that I refuse to hold a grudge
from one thread to the next. Come on Peter, I believe I also mentioned that
to you.

Are we reading the same thread? I just went back and looked through the entire thing and there wasn't one mention by the poster in question related to them even having a child let alone how and what they teach said children. Even if that were the case, as long as those beliefs don't affect you personally, what difference does it actually make what someone else teaches their child? It's no more your business what morals and values I instill into my kids than it is my business how you impart your own upon your offspring.

Then my reply must of caused an edit. Or I'm just a delusional schizoid, suffering
from an over dose of pharmaceutical hallucinogens required on fridays by the law
of the invisible supreme spaghetti monster.

And the rest of that ststement is just pure roll reversal pot n kettle crap. It's not
like you haven't seen remarks the same as that one incomplete reverse. But when
the shoe is on the other foot the crys for mercy go out before the shoe is tied.
You can do better Peter and should admit there isn't anything wrong in what I
wrote in that retort.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I was psychologically traumatized in more ways than I'd like to say here, in a fundamentalist apocolyptic cult / church growing up. I'm 38 today and have a very difficult time forming emotional bonds. I feel physically ill when walking into any kind of protestant church setting, as in barely controllable nausea. I don't plan anything long term, because deep subconsciously tomorrow will never get here, because the world is ending, every day in the deep recesses of my mind.

**** religion.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Yes, why would they do that??? Why would anyone harm, neglect, terrorize, or abuse a child? (Answer: FOR CONTROL, or because they don't know any better and it's how they were raised...or how else they might do things.).

The strategy of focusing on indoctrinating children is part of the Illuminati agenda.

Those 'factions' you mentioned are 100% controlled and infiltrated by TPTB.

"I begin with the young." ~ Adolf Hitler

"He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future." ~ Adolf Hitler

Was Hitler an Illuminati Agent?

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: peter vlar
Oh really I fail to see the irony Peter. And as I said I don't
deny it. You can look back to those conversations yourself tho
and damn well see who drew first blood.

I'm going to have to go back and look at some older threads because that's not quite how remember things lol

See I make a point not to
and really see no difficulty in not doing so initially. But I can rock
with worst of 'em. Which is reasonably why you remember so well.

Oh you definitely can give as good as you get, I won't argue that point. I just don't think you were quite as benevolent as you like to remember yourself as is all I'm saying.

And I was hoping most people know damn well that I refuse to hold a grudge
from one thread to the next. Come on Peter, I believe I also mentioned that
to you.

If I implied that there was a grudge one way or another it wasn't my intention. You should know me well enough by now to know that if it was intentional I'd own the hell out of it.

Then my reply must of caused an edit. Or I'm just a delusional schizoid, suffering
from an over dose of pharmaceutical hallucinogens required on fridays by the law
of the invisible supreme spaghetti monster.

Don't mock the powers of TFSM... it makes the Sith look like girl scouts!

And the rest of that ststement is just pure roll reversal pot n kettle crap. It's not
like you haven't seen remarks the same as that one incomplete reverse. But when
the shoe is on the other foot the crys for mercy go out before the shoe is tied.

Sorry my friend, but I'm going to have to continue my streak of disagreeing with you just a little longer. I'm not crying for mercy from any man or beast and while I'm sure there are some instances where I can be a little wishy washy, this isn't one of them. I stand by what I said, what you and you're family do behind closed doors in your home is completely your business. well unless you're cannibals, pedophiles or some other extreme level maniac like Michael Myers, it shouldn't be anyone else's business, not mine, not the governments.

I only take issue when someone forces their BS on me. But even I have mellowed a little with age. I even invite the Jehovah's in for coffee now as opposed to my early 20's where I'd see them pull into the driveway and I'd strip off all my clothes and put a leash on the Doberman before I would answer the door to invite them in for coffee.

I also stand by everything else I stated, particularly about Christian hypocrisy and being prejudged based on what I don't believe as opposed to who I am and how I treat someone. and that's a conversation you and I have had several times in threads as well as PM's

You can do better Peter and should admit there isn't anything wrong in what I
wrote in that retort.

I don't know that I'd say anything is particularly wrong with your retort other than it just felt like it had an air of superiority to it and it came off as a tad hypocritical.

You're the Christian, you're supposed to be better than that where as I'm a LaVeyan Satanist, I'm allowed to be a hypocrite every once in a while lol


ETA I might not agree with your beliefs or your god Randy but I would still take a bullet to defend your right to be able to practice that faith.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

I changed my post from "mythology" to religious Biblical interpretation.
Okay?

Can we still talk?

Yea sure. just know that I am not the sort that tosses the baby out with the bath water.

By the way this thread is a good case study for all one way or another if you go back and look at the thing. Got to be one way or another polarized, no fine tune or little.

originally posted by: pirhanna
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I was psychologically traumatized in more ways than I'd like to say here, in a fundamentalist apocolyptic cult / church growing up. I'm 38 today and have a very difficult time forming emotional bonds. I feel physically ill when walking into any kind of protestant church setting, as in barely controllable nausea. I don't plan anything long term, because deep subconsciously tomorrow will never get here, because the world is ending, every day in the deep recesses of my mind.

**** religion.

Well now that you know it and can own it why must you swing so hard the other way? A fundamentalist apocalyptic setting only speaks to a small number of what are known as protestant churches.

a reply to: peter vlar

Trying to follow Christ in this world, cements my
feet in both hypocrisy and what only appears to be
hypocrisy. I was on a high horse admitedly because
I expected more from that person, all things considered.
And you may be alble to find what looks like an attack
with ridicule. But whether or not you agree I make it
a point not to do so. So I can call out those who do
and try to understand why. As exampled here. But if I
were even to move beyond that? Two wrongs never
even make right. So it's at the very least moot to say,
"Well you do it too!". So we disagree, no big deal.

So I'd perfer you dodge the bullet and fire the cannon.