Youtube: How your religion appears to us nonbelievers

a reply to: mOjOm

Before I respond I need to clarify what you are saying. You are saying that Evil and Good are subjective, right?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: mOjOm

Actually No. That was never part of God's plan for us. We deviated from His plan and He had to take on human form and die so that our mess would be cleaned up. Once again a short answer, but none of this was God's original plan he has chosen to conform his Plan to allow us to live with Him again, even though He didn't have to.

Really??? So the "All Knowing" somehow didn't see that coming huh??? We somehow strayed from the "Divine Plan" and side stepped God's Authority and Control???

Sounds to me like your "Theology" is starting to Flip-Flop in it's reasoning.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Murgatroid

I think the better question is why do we choose to do Evil?

Because it's all part of God's Plan. Right???

You should read a Gospel. Any translation is better than none. If old English bothers you, there are updated Bibles.

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Then Jesus sent the multitudes away, and went into the house. His disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the darnel weeds of the field." He answered them, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the Kingdom; and the darnel weeds are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. As therefore the darnel weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: mOjOm

Actually No. That was never part of God's plan for us. We deviated from His plan and He had to take on human form and die so that our mess would be cleaned up. Once again a short answer, but none of this was God's original plan he has chosen to conform his Plan to allow us to live with Him again, even though He didn't have to.

Really??? So the "All Knowing" somehow didn't see that coming huh??? We somehow strayed from the "Divine Plan" and side stepped God's Authority and Control???

Sounds to me like your "Theology" is starting to Flip-Flop in it's reasoning.

Perfect justice and righteousness do not create evil. However, the creations of a perfectly just creator can. If you know they will choose to

Do you:

A. Not create them

B. Create them and let them choose anyways

C. Create them, but create them unable to choose

Looks like God chose B. You questioning God's decision to let you live with freedom to choose between Him and what you see in the world?

Because that is what we choose between. God and the world.

a reply to: mOjOm

Not at all. God made a plan for salvation, but living in this mortal world wasn't what He originally planned for us. The World we live in is based on a choice we made, and God compensated for that choice. All of this is contained in the Bible. How does any of that mean God didn't see it coming? It means he allowed us to choose for ourselves even if it was a mistake. What makes you think God abandoned his original plan for us? Do you think we just get to Heaven and thats the end of what God has in store for us? Is it not possible that we just made the journey harder for ourselves?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: mOjOm

Before I respond I need to clarify what you are saying. You are saying that Evil and Good are subjective, right?

If you can show me otherwise I'd love to see it.

That however doesn't mean there isn't a need for us to have morality. It serves a purpose for us to have them and make them not only for our own well being but for the collective as well.

originally posted by: mOjOm
Because it's all part of God's Plan. Right???

Incorrect.

Unless of course you change that capitol G to a small g...

originally posted by: WeAllDieSoon

Perfect justice and righteousness do not create evil. However, the creations of a perfectly just creator can. If you know they will choose to

Do you:

A. Not create them

B. Create them and let them choose anyways

C. Create them, but create them unable to choose

Looks like God chose B. You questioning God's decision to let you live with freedom to choose between Him and what you see in the world?

Because that is what we choose between. God and the world.

How could "we" have chosen Evil if it didn't already exist for us to choose it???

Or are you saying that "we" actually created it???

In either case, "we" didn't do either. According to your story book, Adam and Eve chose it and the rest of us from that moment on were just stuck with it.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Incorrect.

Unless of course you change that capitol G to a small g...

Or simply no "G" at all and also no plan either.

a reply to: mOjOm

Since you probably don't contemplate the reality of sin often, I will simplify this for you -

So every time where you were put in a situation to either:

A. Do what is best for you at the expense of someone else
or
B. Do what is best for someone else, with no personal gain for you

You chose B?

And if you chose A, you blame God for letting you be evil?

Yes, your ancestors sinned and now the world is fallen. God sent His only Son to save us. But are you choosing the world over Him, and complaining that He left the world as an option?

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon

I've had those situations and I admit that I've chosen both A and B at different times and have felt differently about each of them depending upon the choice that I made. Which in turn has developed into my own set of Moral Codes by which I try to follow. They are however based upon my own experiences and my feelings and reflection about those experiences and could possibly change again depending upon other experiences.

I don't blame God for any of it. I don't praise God for any of it either. I attribute the results of my "choices" to myself for making them, be it a good or bad result.

a reply to: mOjOm

That is all subjective and based on your perceptions. God knows we can not trust our perceptions in this fallen world. That's why he gave us the Word that transcends national boundaries, politics, and the ever changing philosophies of different societies.

What we think is a positive outcome can often end up as a negative outcome.

a reply to: mOjOm

That however doesn't mean there isn't a need for us to have morality. It serves a purpose for us to have them and make them not only for our own well being but for the collective as well.

If morality is subjective you cannot make this statement. If morality is subjective it is merely an illusion of each individual's mind. It does not exist. If it does not exist then the Problem of Evil falls apart and cant be considered as evidence for God or against God anyways. For example you could say well if God exist why is there murder and rape in the world, but then I could say well thats subjective and murder and rape aren't evil but only something you believe is Evil. Evil doesn't exist in that sense. I don't mind if you believe that, but you can never enter any discussions on Evil with that belief because it presupposes that Evil doesn't exist at all and if thats the case then how can it be used as an argument against God?

However if you truly believe that then you can never call anything wrong or right it simply just is what the person chose to do because it was within their ability to do so. Let's say your involved in a law suit because a family has wronged you. You are causing trouble for their business so they decide to kill you. Why should they have abstained from removing you a nuisance to the whole family? Its not morally wrong, because well morals are what they believe they are.

The Holocaust wasn't wrong it was just a matter of opinion. If everyone believed that morals were subjective then how could you put people in prison as they could easily make a plea that there moral view was correct.

Lets say a person killed someones entire family for lots of money, and the lone survivor now has the killer restrained and at gun point. The man doesn't know he is the killer, but he believes it strongly ask the killer why he shouldn't kill him ? If the killer is attempting to leave the situation alive which would be the most logical response be:

A) To explain to him that the killing was morally correct because it got you a lot of money and morals are subjective so even though he may see it as bad in reality its a was good thing in hopes of leaving alive

Or

B)Cover up that he was the killer at all cost in hopes of leaving alive?

originally posted by: WeAllDieSoon

That is all subjective and based on your perceptions. God knows we can not trust our perceptions in this fallen world. That's why he gave us the Word that transcends national boundaries, politics, and the ever changing philosophies of different societies.

What we think is a positive outcome can often end up as a negative outcome.

You mean the Bible. Well, that's where you and I differ. You think it's a book of Divine Truth. I think it's a book written by Man that is passed off as Divine Truth. Two very different things.

That's not to say that everything in the book is wrong because it was written by man. I think they had some things right too. I simply don't buy into the claim that it's ALL TRUE. It's not all true nor is it moral most of the time.

In fact, I find it disturbing that so many people claim that the Bible is where they derive their own Morality from because from what I have read from it, it's anything but Moral or Just. So anyone who sticks with what someone wrote down 2000 years ago as their Moral Code regardless of their own perception of things and without second guessing their actions, to me is a potentially dangerous person. Someone who acts according to a book instead of their own understanding seems more like a zombie than a person.

a reply to: mOjOm

You dont need a book to know the moral law. Its written on mens hearts.

Isaiah 51:7
“Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear not the reproach of man, nor be dismayed at their revilings."

Other translation will translate righteousness as those who know what is right, or those who know right from wrong. The law is written on men's hearts, and everyone knows it.

a reply to: mOjOm

You dont need a book to know the moral law. Its written on mens hearts.

Isaiah 51:7
“Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear not the reproach of man, nor be dismayed at their revilings."

Other translation will translate righteousness as those who know what is right, or those who know right from wrong. The law is written on men's hearts, and everyone knows it.

a reply to: mOjOm

You dont need a book to know the moral law. Its written on mens hearts.

Isaiah 51:7
“Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear not the reproach of man, nor be dismayed at their revilings."

Other translation will translate righteousness as those who know what is right, or those who know right from wrong. The law is written on men's hearts, and everyone knows it.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb

If morality is subjective you cannot make this statement. If morality is subjective it is merely an illusion of each individual's mind. It does not exist.

Sure I can. It exists to me the same way other concepts I have exist to me. I hate to break it to you but it is an illusion. Concepts are all illusions. They are all ideas. But that doesn't make them useless or meaningless. Good and Evil are defined by whoever is labeling something as Good or Evil. When being labeled by a group of people not everyone will agree on the same Label either. Sometimes they do, but not always.

However if you truly believe that then you can never call anything wrong or right it simply just is what the person chose to do because it was within their ability to do so. Let's say your involved in a law suit because a family has wronged you. You are causing trouble for their business so they decide to kill you. Why should they have abstained from removing you a nuisance to the whole family? Its not morally wrong, because well morals are what they believe they are.

Sure I can. I call things right or wrong based upon what I understand to be right or wrong. You may or may not agree.
In your example, is that not exactly how things are though??? Given all the details perhaps you could make a logical argument for or against what is or isn't Right. But in the same way, let me give you an example.

Murder is wrong, right. So let's say I murder someone, I am wrong to do so. But what if I murder them defending someone else??? But what if that person actually asked them to kill them because they had a terminal disease and it was to end their suffering???

Or how about the question where you're about to crash your car into some random person. You can either hit them or turn the wheel and hit the wall, which is the Right choice??? Was it right to kill yourself instead of them or the other way around. What if they're a rapist but you don't know that??? What if they're a rapist but you're a violent criminal, then what???

The Holocaust wasn't wrong it was just a matter of opinion. If everyone believed that morals were subjective then how could you put people in prison as they could easily make a plea that there moral view was correct.

It is all a matter of opinion though. Some people think it's immoral for a woman to show their breasts in public. Some think it's totally natural. Some people think eating pork is a sin. Some people don't and love a good BLT.

So who's right???

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: mOjOm

You dont need a book to know the moral law. Its written on mens hearts.

Isaiah 51:7
“Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear not the reproach of man, nor be dismayed at their revilings."

Other translation will translate righteousness as those who know what is right, or those who know right from wrong. The law is written on men's hearts, and everyone knows it.

If that was the case then we wouldn't have to make laws for those who just don't get it!! There is no template of true morality written within all of us that is the same. I've known people who have different moral standards than myself. They are totally ok doing things I wouldn't NEVER do and regardless of how much I've tried to argue it with them they just don't see it. I'm sure you know people like that too. There is NO objective way to prove either side Right.

Even Murder, like I said before which should be something easy to show a Moral judgement of, isn't always possible. If murder is wrong always then we shouldn't be murdering murderers. Or even in self defense, is it ok to kill someone who is going to kill you??? Are you sure??? If you kill them first, how sure are you that you were going to die??? Maybe they were just going to hurt you, so now you're the killer because you thought something else.

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon

And I never said He chooses to use angels to persuade his creations that He exists. I said He chooses to use His angels to save some people when He sees fit to do so.

Given that this god is alleged to be the creator of all that there IS,WAS, and Will EVER BE" and "Sees Fit" to use something that he created ie "Angels" to save people from something that only he could have created to begin with. One can only conclude that this is asinine reasoning and a product of human imagination.

By the way you didn't say whether or not you believe in Fairies, if not why not ?