States with Higher Minimum Wage Boast Faster Job Growth

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

LOL, I doubt we get many 1%ers here on Ats

What gets my goat are those who (I've been there) aspire to be 1%ers and side with these guys as if somehow they gain anything from supporting them. I told a story how I lost everything in recent years and am on a come back... and that's the thing, when you have a mind to make money and it's of your nature "a lessening of profits" isn't going to hurt you.

I personally feel like the "money" not even the Billionaires... rather the Millionaires of the previous generation got there on inherited wealth and we actually don't have a crop of Captains of Industry in charge right now, they resort to seriously cheap tactics of gouging and monopolies because... they aren't that educated as they think they are and the definitely don't know how to incentivize people the right way

I think... Everybody likes money and business can only do better if you share it... and I also don't want to contract hepatitis somehow from my employees, sometimes I go through a drive through and think "Jesus H Christ on a stick... that effer shouldn't touch my burger why don't we have machines for this like Japan" then I think "ptttthhh that's not coffee"

I got miffed from inception on this one because I don't want to see more jobs but rather jobs that don't suck, I can't see the use in having 4.2 unemployment in a state when the next 46% of people employed are on food stamps anyway with no way to enter a better bracket

i'll say this, this is he first time in my life I have ever taken major pay cut to myself to see others paid better... that means it's pretty bad for people out there because I like money, I just wish more business owners could see first hand what it's like...

originally posted by: Ilovemygreatdanes
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I don't have to do jack for you to prove myself and every day reality. There are countless threads right here on ATS. And they are not just based on conjecture and conspiracy. Maybe you should figure out how to use the site search function, enlighten yourself and stop just hearing what you want to hear.

I'm just happy for you that this issue obviously doesn't effect you in the least whatsoever; that you'll go to such great lengths to vehemently spit your vitriol at any and everything that doesn't see it your way.

That must be nice

So basically you feel that something is as it is and facts be damned? Is that the way to "defy ignorance?"

a reply to: Ilovemygreatdanes

I have to back up farther to catch up, and as a result I am not sure what this disagreement is, but I can tell YOU one thing.

Just saying stuff is wrong without any data or even a logical train of thought is not sufficient to disprove or discredit anything.

In fact, at the end you pretty much take it personal without an facts backing your position.

IMO, without myself having a dog in the argument at this time, you fail hugely at the art of debate. Present the specifics of why his numbers are incorrect...just saying they are wrong is .. BS. If he provided a link there is either a problem with the source or you need to present countering data to support your claim.

Without at least that you may as well be a 4 year old repeating "you're wrong!" over and over.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Nicely done. Your point is irrefutable and inescapable.

a reply to: criticalhit

First off, my reply was not directed at what you pay your employees, but at your "vision" of how economics work. Very distorted.

Is your help skilled in any way? If so, then minimum wage is not appropriate.

Is turnover a problem for you? If so, then minimum wage is not appropriate.

There are many conditions under which minimum wage is not appropriate. If you want to employ a higher class of individual, with training, education or skills then you obviously will not pay minimum wage.

You seem to think that I endorse paying all jobs at minimum wage.

Minimum wage is for entry level non-skilled, non-educated positions. Such as McDonalds... This is not the first time I have posted this.

I get where you are saying they are doing this in California etc... California whose unemployment rate is half again as high as that of Texas and whose cost of living is significantly higher than Texas. What is your point? If you want to increase unemployment and cost of living then increase minimum wages? You have made that point.

Australia has a minimum wage of $15-16/hr... China's is $1.19. By your definition China's economy should suck and Australia's should be rolling gangbusters. Funny how it is pretty much the opposite. Want to tell me how the "pacific rim" is doing it when virtually every country has a minimum wage that is less than the US?

Where I have disagreed with you is in that one cannot arbitrarily raise the minimum wage to $15/hr without effect on other pay levels, without effect on your bottom line, without effect on your pricing structure. If this is done on a universal level, the repercussions will resound throughout the economy and the least of the effects will be massive inflation.

If you disagree with the previous paragraph, then detail how, exactly, one would virtually double wages and not impact pricing similarly. All you are doing is saying I am wrong....that is a 4 year old's argument.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Except that they do not. They have in one instance that you have shown. Perhaps you could provide other examples that show the two move in lockstep with each other, then you could make the point.

a reply to: MOMof3

If, for one instance, you believe that I approve of what you are describing in your post, you are wrong. Dead wrong.

I am pointing out how the economics work. When it comes to what the govt does, I am on the edge of being an anarchist due to the actions of our govt. Want to blame someone besides the bankers? Blame the govt for believing that companies can be too large to allow to fail. That is the problem. Every time the govt get's involved in our economy the results are always crap and that crap typically falls on the little guy. I can provide many examples of what I just stated if you like, and you will probably agree. Big govt is much worse than big business. At least until big business get's bailed out after committing it's crimes.

a reply to: criticalhit

Your rant is very twisted and leaves out some very important information. Numbers are crap eh? So let's just focus on fuzzy feelings then? LOL

You point out how Australia is the #12 economy and allude it's because they pay the highest minimum wage and yet leave out that their cost of living is 33% higher than in the US. You fail to note that China is rapidly becoming the #1 economy (that this will happen, there is no doubt) and yet their minimum wage is $1.19. The Chinese economy has been a juggernaut that has grown exponentially. How would you describe the growth in Australia? BTW...the cost of living in China is significantly lower than that of the US and that of Australia.

I would also like to point out how getting personal and calling people jerks not only violates the TOS, but is also a tactic that losers tend to fall into as they begin to realize they are losing an argument. Try not to lose your temper and let the logic and facts speak for themselves, whether you are right or wrong. Hard to do at times, but it works out best for you in the long run.

The basic problem with the US and why we are declining is the loss of manufacturing jobs. We have lost millions of manufacturing jobs to overseas. Why? Operating costs, including labor costs plain and simple.

In the 60s the US manufactured 25% of the world's manufactured goods. What is it today? We manufacture but 5% of the world's goods. Very little of what we manufacture is exported.

Basic rule of thumb: If you export more than you import your country gets richer. If you import more than you export, your country gets poorer. Who is on the upswing in wealth and who is on the downswing.

If we are losing wealth, can we afford to significantly increase minimum wages and send even more jobs overseas?

No.

a reply to: bbracken677

I am sorry. I am 64 with three grown kids trying to make it. For the first time in my life, I AM REAL DISCOURAGED. I see nothing but struggle and teetering on the edge of poverty for the rest of their lives. Sometimes, think I should have married a man with lots of numbers behind his name instead of for love. I concede that without the pity of the rich and numbers people, most of us are doomed. One thing this country always had was HOPE. That is waning.

a reply to: MOMof3

I agree wholeheartedly. I have grandchildren and I wonder what is in store for them.

I place the blame solely and squarely on the shoulders of our govt. Taxation is at ridiculous levels. The govt is huge for no good reason and nothing particular in the way of results to justify it by even half. Our politicians cannot focus on the real problems, offer no solutions just doublespeak.

I watch politicians every cycle and no one running actually offers solutions. Catch phrases are not solutions. Saying "I am going to fix this" is not a solution... They go into office fairly well off in most cases and come out stinking rich. There is a problem there when their salaries do not account for their increased wealth. Investments cannot even account for their increased wealth. Are they investigated? Hell no.

The democrats claim to be the party of the little people, and yet 6 or 7 of the top ten richest congressmen are democrats. They have no idea what it is like to struggle and live paycheck to paycheck. But they are for the little people. I have a couple of words for that: male bovine excrement!

a reply to: bbracken677

i'll address both responses at once

It's quality of life vs numbers. I and most people in fact were not born into this world to engage in a numerical pissing game to lay claim to "titles" like No1 economy highest GDP etc. While in the case of China I would say to Industrialize a nation of 1.5 Billion and build an infrastructure that can handle that, they are more in a place similar to where we were at the turn of the last century and have less choice, I however do not see America in that position. Our rankings have little to do with "living well" for most people.

You say in your first retort

Where I have disagreed with you is in that one cannot arbitrarily raise the minimum wage to $15/hr without effect on other pay levels, without effect on your bottom line, without effect on your pricing structure. If this is done on a universal level, the repercussions will resound throughout the economy and the least of the effects will be massive inflation.

I say in response to that, the place to take the money from is "The Bottom line" I have done it personally... it's not so terrible. Nations like China and the USA have locations that resemble the Gaza strip, the wealth discrepancy is ridiculous, one of the great miseries that has created a nation of terrible entrepreneurs is the "franchise" system... you get 2 types of people 1: those who buy in and loose their shirts because in actuality they are terrible business men and they actually can't afford to pay their employees squat and 2: those who do it well and reap enormous profits which they can easily cut into to provide better pay... i'd say if group one went out of business entirely it would be a good thing because we don't need a nation of terrible entrepreneurs that can't pay well and group 2 picking up the slack can afford to pay better.

While i'm a die hard capitalist I think running a business is a responsibility to your community, customers and employees, I think we have became a nation that doesn't even know how to run a business, chains and franchise drive away competition, raise the ante on local rents and provide terrible service and products and lead to a "get rich for doing squat" mentality

I want GOOD businesses to thrive, I want good services and products to succeed and offer Good jobs, running a business should be tough, you should expect to roll with the economy not make your money providing junk via workers at slavery prices, i'd institute a policy like Japans where management can't earn more than x percent over employees in a heart beat, if you want the money raise the profits the old fashioned way, by being better than the rest, by improving service, by having a well fed sharp staff that can go to school and afford health care... if not get out of the game.

America once meant "THE BEST" it's not going to get back there without the general public being able to thrive and yes, i'll earn less to see that happen. I didn't become an Entrepreneur just for the cash flow, I did it to do something to be Babe Ruth. Business is supposed to be a struggle, a battle... not an investment op the Ante to be in the game needs to be there, if your business is bringing you in 40 and your employees are making 8 an hr and can't pay for school and look and work like garbage your doing something wrong and those businesses are supposed to fail

And honestly, those of us who wish to assume the mantle as providers have to weigh that responsibility, along with the titles land lord, business owner you also take upon yourself a desire to be a pillar and that comes with more than effort than someone who just wants a job, when the economy rocks, when the competition gets rough...earning that cash for self isn't your only priority you need to tighten your belt and get creative and run the hrs and fix it the right way, not by driving up prices to keep your lifestyle afloat... the price should come from us not the general public because these are your consumers and when they are a wreck you have failed at your job.

so yeah, cut the bottom line, If I open a supermarket it would be because I enjoy food, wish to provide good food and if things get tough it's okay for them to get tough for me to, it's okay to make 40 instead of 80 and help those that actually run your business make 18 instead of 12, if you can't manage it you should probably wake up to the fact your on a sinking ship, to me it's incentive to do better and creates better workers, better business and in the long run makes you more competitive

It's called business ethics which has become a singular 3 credit class, one which most franchise owners never even took...

The extra money isn't worth it, it's not worth it when quality of life degrades businesses become pathetic, American competitiveness dries up, people live in poverty and can't spend money anyway

The answer is those of us who strive for more take the hit, we are the competitors not the spectators, we share the burden, we give tiny tim that damn Turkey on Christmas we do what business owners should do and take responsibility for the communities and people who make us rich, not just pass the buck up the price and pretend we did something special

Its the trickle up effect. Give people more money to spend, the economy goes up.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

And you Sir are completely off topic. Unemployment rates are not addressed at all in my post nor the article I referenced.

Only two variable are discussed: Job Growth and Minimum Wage and the correlation of the two.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: MOMof3

I agree wholeheartedly. I have grandchildren and I wonder what is in store for them.

I place the blame solely and squarely on the shoulders of our govt. Taxation is at ridiculous levels. The govt is huge for no good reason and nothing particular in the way of results to justify it by even half. Our politicians cannot focus on the real problems, offer no solutions just doublespeak.

I watch politicians every cycle and no one running actually offers solutions. Catch phrases are not solutions. Saying "I am going to fix this" is not a solution... They go into office fairly well off in most cases and come out stinking rich. There is a problem there when their salaries do not account for their increased wealth. Investments cannot even account for their increased wealth. Are they investigated? Hell no.

The democrats claim to be the party of the little people, and yet 6 or 7 of the top ten richest congressmen are democrats. They have no idea what it is like to struggle and live paycheck to paycheck. But they are for the little people. I have a couple of words for that: male bovine excrement!

And apparently, correct me if I'm wrong, when 'the government' does something to actually help people - it's doing the wrong thing? Seems contractory to me.

a reply to: criticalhit

I like your post and actually (gasp!) agree with much of it.

However....

You have to have a bottom line that can support it. I worked in one industry for 23 years. I had access to and was responsible for many of the numbers on the P&L. I can tell you that being one of 63 plants that had (63 plants total..ours normally ran in the top 5 in profit) the highest profit margins in the country, for that company (a successful one, I might add) the profit margin at our plant was usually in the neighborhood of 5%. We had too many plants that were losing money vs ones that made a profit. Overall the company did make a profit but it was a slim margin. Our entry level positions were not minimum wage. Our entry level positions demanded more in terms of intelligence and skills than minimum wage would deliver.

If minimum wage had jumped significantly our rates would have had to match somewhat as well...it's how it works. You have to remain competitive in all that represents. We did not have the room in our bottom line to be able to afford a significant increase in labor costs. Particularly since our raw materials would have also increased. We would have had no choice but to increase the price of our goods. It's a nasty little chain, but I have seen it happen.

When minimum wages go up, it isnt in a vacuum. Wages above it have to increase also, which means the costs of other goods/services also increase. There just arent that many businesses in the US that are running fat and can swallow increases in labor costs without passing them on to customers.

If businesses are running so fat, why is there a risk in opening a new plant or opening a new business or producing a new service or even an old service from a new location? Every day businesses go under. Every day businesses file for chapter 11. It's not the fat profit margins you envision. There are small and large businesses that are just barely hanging on.

In the industry I referred to above the difference between making a profit and losing money was as little as 1-2% waste differential. This in a business where you are guaranteed (due to the nature of the manufacturing process) to have a minimum of 4.5% waste. The most excellent, modern and efficient plants in the world could not get below that 4.5%. If you were generating 7% waste, you were losing money.

I have worked in 3 other industries since those days, and not one had a fat profit margin. Not one.

Sounds great to just say take it out of the bottom line, but it is not realistic in this environment. Competition is a beeyatch. Insures low profit margins unless you are in some industry with little competition. You (as a company) have to seek an edge whether it be lower cost, quality, customer service... if you do not have any edge, you go under.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I would be interested in the job growth prior to that for all of the states...if they were already growing faster than other states--for whatever reason--this would indicate nothing.

Either way, half of one year, especially when measuring during summer (when there usually is an increase in job growth anyhow), does not a trend make in the world of job growth.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: criticalhit
...
When minimum wages go up, it isnt in a vacuum. Wages above it have to increase also, which means the costs of other goods/services also increase. There just arent that many businesses in the US that are running fat and can swallow increases in labor costs without passing them on to customers.

THAT is what proponents of the miracle of minimum-wage increases don't understand--it's the same with raising taxes. It ALWAYS shows its net effect on the consumer, and it never weighs in favor of the same consumer.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Corporate taxes are paid for by the consumer....always. Increase corporate taxes and guess what? The consumer pays more for the product or service. It's a given and a fact of life. People who do not understand how companies work with regards to costs vs product/service prices just never get it at all.

Classic and simplified example:

2 burger joints sitting across the street from each other. They both serve the low end fast food market. Their products are all similarly priced (picture a Wendy's and McDonalds).

Assuming they both do about the same amount of business, their gross income is roughly the same. Since they are competing for market share, there is a constant barrage of "specials" whether special meals or special deals.

Increase their taxes by 20% or increase their labor costs by 20% and their products will increase in price accordingly. More than likely something along the lines of 10% if labor costs are half their total costs (likely less than 10, but 10 is such a nice round number).

Increase both by 20% (both labor and taxes) and you wind up with upwards to 20% increase in product.

If labor and taxes increase for all industries then you have to factor in the increase in costs of materials coming in to make the product (bread, meat, bags, containers, mayo etc etc) and then the cost of the burgers increase even further.

It is no surprise, no coincidence that the minimum wage in Australia is much higher than ours, and at the same time the cost of living is much higher as well.

If you look at overall wages in NYC you see that wages are higher than, say, Austin, TX but at the same time cost of living is also much higher. They are interrelated to a degree that you cannot separate the two.

The argument that a significantly higher minimum wage is good for the economy, it just doesn't fly when you consider historical or even current conditions at various locations in the US or in the world. If higher wages are the key to a robust economy then why does China's wages lag behind ours so much? Their economy is going like gangbusters. If you look at all the countries in the Pacific Rim (as one poster suggested) then you see they all lag in wages behind the US and yet they are growing their economies whereas the US is not. It's just not that simple.

There is no magic pixie dust we can spread around to help the economy...and a significantly increased minimum wage is far from pixie dust.

a reply to: bbracken677

If corporations do not pay taxes, why do they send their money to tax havens?

a reply to: MOMof3

Haha...no, that isnt what I meant.

I mean the cost is passed along to their consumer. Just as any other cost is.

Let's say you run a company making widgets there are a number of factors that decide what your selling price is going to be. You have your basic costs...everything that you have to pay in order to stay in business and make widgets and then sell them. This includes labor and material costs, overhead costs and taxes. You are also going to be influenced by market value. What are your competitors selling theirs for? Have you targeted a producer as being weak and want to capture a significant portion of their market share?

If, after determining your pricing, taxes go up, they go up for everyone. How does that affect the market value? How does that affect your costs? How does that affect your pricing? It's a good bet that between your competitors and yourself that you (collective you) are not fat in the profit margin area. I do not know of anyone that has such fat in a competitive market. The net result is the increase in taxes is accounted for in your widget prices. Who ultimately will pay that increase? The consumer of the widgets who pays the higher price.

It's like, if you could charge your employer for additional costs you incur...and your taxes went up. You would either eat the difference and make less income or you charge your employer more for your services. In the typical employee/employer relationship charging them more is not an option, but in the business world, charging more for your product is an option.

The other alternative is, the company eats the higher tax rate and tries to capture a larger market share by virtue of lower prices. If the industry is a mature one and has been around for a while and specially if the industry itself is facing a shrinking market eating the increase may not be an option.