What Patriarchy?

a reply to: Annee

You can't have equal opportunity in a patriarchic society. Nor in a matriarchial society, I guess. Two extremes.
I understand your point though- my mother was a radical feminist.

I just have come to witness an alternative- a culture which sees womens strengths as being their sensitivity and empathy- therefore ideal for teaching people about respect for others; ethics. In a society which puts ethics right up there beside individualism. They don't play in the same field as men. Men play their roles as "official power" and it seen only as that . Official doesn't mean more important.

This is very hard to describe, and I've been up since 5 in the morning, so perhaps I am not doing it well. I'll get off line now, before I upset someone.


I did a better job earlier in the thread about Socialists being cheaters. (It's true)

originally posted by: Bluesma
a reply to: Annee

You can't have equal opportunity in a patriarchic society. Nor in a matriarchial society, I guess. Two extremes.

Really?

You can't have equal opportunity?

I can tell you as a woman I do not appreciate being stereotyped.

originally posted by: Annee
I can tell you as a woman I do not appreciate being stereotyped.

Welcome to existence in a stereotypical world.

You aren't an exception because you're a woman.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Bluesma
a reply to: Annee

You can't have equal opportunity in a patriarchic society. Nor in a matriarchial society, I guess. Two extremes.

Really?

You can't have equal opportunity?

I can tell you as a woman I do not appreciate being stereotyped.

Stereotyped? I guess you lost me there. I wrote "in a patriarchial society"....... if it is patriarchial, it is biased in favor of men. Therefore, not equal opportunity, by definition.

In matriarchial society it is biased towards women, so is not equal opportunity for men- again, by definition.

Trying to understand where the stereotype comes in.....


ETA- walked away but couldn't stop trying to work out my lack of understanding of your comment! Perhaps you meant that, in a patriarchial society, a woman should be able to be recognized as having the same "masculine" types of qualities (physical strength, individualist mindset, aggressivity...). I think it is possible, and yet, she still has a vagina- she is still a woman. She will still be de-valued somewhat, partly because she can be seen as de-valuing herself! Not holding valuable the qualities she was born with- like being able to make humans. Men can't help but see that distinction. That sets us up for being able to identify our self with another individual (be one with them, starting with pregnancy) in a way they cannot experience.

The exterior world and others will only value you as much as you value yourself. You can buy into the masculine biased values and still feel betrayed by the system. Many a woman has made all the effort they could to excell in areas their daddy held high as masculine pursuits, and still didn't feel recognized as much as the sister that simply didn't make that effort, and went her own way, not trying to gain his approval. (Many myths and stories have been written on that schema).

The pay is the recognition from the daddy. Daddy gives money. Mommy gives social support, food and warmth. In a patriarchial society, money is valued higher than social support. If someone is focusing on that money as the important prize, then they are fully participating in that system and feeding it. Even if they claim to be against it.

a reply to: Bluesma
Over tired, I think.

Misunderstood your post. Let's just start over

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: InTheLight
The act of donning a dress to explore discrimination does not require a special skill, only a desire to learn the truth. On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.
(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

I would suggest joining a discussion forum as a female identity.

I have tried this experiment, joining as a male.

It's one thing taking a short glimpse of varying treatments and behaviours within different social arenas, it is quite another growing up with it, then living it on a daily basis. I too joined as a male, and it seemed more was expected of me, as soon as I revealed I was female, the attitude changed, and much less was expected of me - from an aggressive debating standpoint - which further proved my theory that patriarchial behaviours are alive and well (even if unconscious). I also wonder if I was unconsciously behaving in a different manner (or in a biased way) than my norm, behaving in a masculine/aggressive/deriding fashion (as were others) than intellectual/thoughtful/calm...it's food for thought.

a reply to: Annee
okay, it's not a big deal.

Not a response to you now, just something I was thinking about, stimulated by this discussion, and I cam eback here to write about it-

I have been in a few jobs that were more masculine oriented- or at least from the exterior appearences.

I was a cosmetologist, and though there are more females in that career choice, the most well known and successful ons are men. I used to do a lot of competition and modeling, and learned that the stylists who were up on the podiums strutting and talkign about their self and their personalized style or technique actually had at least one, if not a team of, women doing the actual work for them. In many cases, the man did not even give them any real direction- he said do your own thing. -And then he'd get up on the stage and take credit for it.


Right now, I am having an experience in a kitchen, in which ALL of the cooks are male, and ALL of the commis (aides, not much more than dishwashers) are female.

I cannot count how many times now I have had the cooks asking me how to do this or that, how long should this be cooked, what ingredients would be best... sometimes I have to stop a cook I am passing by and show him how to do something basic like folding a batter or kneeding bread.

One day in discussion, the guys found out I make my own crusts and pastrys at home for my family. They said they buy premade ones at home. I was aghast- I asked how could that be, when you make them yourself here? You know how to do it!
They replied, yes, but, I just follow the directions I am given, and it is so hard. I don't want to bother struggling like that at home.

I have been doing these tasks daily for more than twenty years. They are automatic skills for me (and apparently, for some of the other women too). YET- we have a lower position, are paid less, and must submit to the authority of these men. We have more experience in this area and are better at it.

In the world of horsemanship, and especially in the working horse type of circles (work with cows) I saw the same thing. Went to train by a guy that his name plastered everywhere only to find out he was somewhat of a drunken idiot with barely any skills- his wife, however, was the most awesome rider, the best roper there out of all the men, and kept that to herself.

WHY do so many women agree to let the guys seek recognition in the society, even for their own work?
I interrogated myself and found that I just don't give a f*ck about being a celebrity, or getting that recognition. I don't feel I need it. My husband does. He wants his name to live on past his body, for some reason- he wants his name to be known by strangers after he dies. Go figure. Whatever.

I guess I feel I will live on through my children, I have achieved immortality already. When I cook for them, or heal their physical or emotional wounds, I am doing so for myself as well as them.

I guess what I pull from this is that it is a highly masculine culture which considers official roles as meaningful- the face on the box is not necessarily representative of the contents. A lot of women know this, through direct experience, some others just don't seem to want to admit it, and they want to be that face on the box. As if it is meaningful. Cult of personality. I am not a feminist because I don't buy into that. I am not impressed by the appearences. I see them as illusions.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: InTheLight
The act of donning a dress to explore discrimination does not require a special skill, only a desire to learn the truth. On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.
(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

I would suggest joining a discussion forum as a female identity.

I have tried this experiment, joining as a male.

It's one thing taking a short glimpse of varying treatments and behaviours within different social arenas, it is quite another growing up with it, then living it on a daily basis. I too joined as a male, and it seemed more was expected of me, as soon as I revealed I was female, the attitude changed, and much less was expected of me - from an aggressive debating standpoint - which further proved my theory that patriarchial behaviours are alive and well (even if unconscious). I also wonder if I was unconsciously behaving in a different manner than my norm, more masculine than intellectual...it's food for thought.

Yes. Dumbed down would be the term I would use.

My opinion was treated with more respect and validity as a male, even by those in disagreement.

As a woman it was mostly, "Yeah, OK" -- then kinda brushed aside. Either a politeness of recognition, but not really taken seriously ---- or almost hatred by some males.

I was raised with 2 brothers in an all boy neighborhood. My mom was not the girly-girl type. The first time I wore make-up she just laughed set me. I don't really do that well with many women, they tend to want more from me then I'm willing to give. Women, some, seem to want to own your soul. It's not that I don't get the Venus/Mars thing.

Feminism is about equal opportunity. Women (and their supporters) are responsible for making it happen. I'd rather be called a "bitch" then "useless".

Being that I'm in my 60s, I personally know laws had to be changed in my own lifetime just to create the possibility of opportunity.

There is no question we live in a Patriarchy. But, it is not the responsibility of men to change it.

There seems to be apathy in the generation of women after the feminist movement. Only time will tell if a balance is ever reached in power roles.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: InTheLight

On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.

(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

True. The need for "physical protector" diminishes as we move to a world of intelligence.



And not all men fix cars. While I am not into engines, I do have my own power tools, as I like carpentry.

Well that's too bad Dear..... that you've missed out on the joy's of mechanic work. Let me just say that although women have their fair share of patience trying activities. I think it a shame that they don't get a good dose of greasy knuckle busting patience shredding mechanic work. Yes it would be enjoyable watching Mommy throwing things around and swearing at the engineers that designed the Sh!@ you are trying to repair. And after a few blood sacrifices to the great god of mechanical devices you might actually succeed. I wouldn't put it on par with holding a crying infant while trying to cook supper with daddy sitting in the lazy boy asking for a beer but it would still do her good to experience it.

Harry

originally posted by: HarryJoy

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: InTheLight

On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.

(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

True. The need for "physical protector" diminishes as we move to a world of intelligence.



And not all men fix cars. While I am not into engines, I do have my own power tools, as I like carpentry.

Well that's too bad Dear..... that you've missed out on the joy's of mechanic work.
Harry

Did you miss where I said I disassembled and reassembled motorcycles?

I have great spacial thinking. My brain naturally sees how things fit together. The grease and dirt is not my thing. Not all men are fans of it either.

I prefer the natural feel of wood. Many men do too.

Some ideas about patriarchy are certainly valid, for example men tend to hold more political power, are physically stronger, women rights were not taken very seriously in the past and in undeveloped countries this goes on to this day, women are inherently worse at math etc.

However some ideas about patriarchy are also debatable or outright wrong. Chief of them the idea that women have it worse overall than men (so called male privilege). It is an inherently sexist idea that tends to disregard and trivialise male perspective: crime sentencing bias against men, women tend to control the supply of sex, society looks down upon men who show feelings or weaknesses, trivialisation of female-on-male violence, men have equal or bigger chances to be a victim of violent crime overall than women, men tend to have more health issues etc.

In the end, Id say we should differentiate between egalitarian feminism and more extreme, misandrist/female supremacist one.

...

a reply to: Maslo

People are not equal, just forget gender.

The key word is "opportunity". Actually, "equal opportunity".

Women out number men. Women are graduating college at a higher percentage then men.

Where are these women in positions of power?

Statiscally it does not add up as equal.

It's not men sitting there all by their lonesome in positions of power. It's a certain type of people in particular. A certain type of people who work just as hard to keep men "not in their club" down.

Want to know why there aren't more women in positions of power? The women benefiting from being associated with those men don't WANT more women near them. Whether married/related or just sleeping with them. You're a threat. They mutually work together to keep their structure that works VERY well for them in tact.

They also work very hard to have you looking at the wrong people. Thanks. The vast majority of men are not benefiting from this so called "male power"... and are carrying their own horrific brunt of it via the conditions of mines, unequal time for equal crimes in prison, being the ones expected to die in favor of women (gee... who benefits from THAT... oh yeah... conquerers who want all the "honorable" men to off themselves leaving the women and kids for themselves), etc.

Given what you've seen historically of people in power... do really you even WANT to be like them? Do you *really* not see the female threads in the power structure right along side the male visibility? Ohhhh those POOR women and their cheating husbands! They cry SOOO good for the TV. As they continue to ride the high life that playing along for the entertainment and reality TV faux mockery from the oh so pious public. They are even better actors than their husbands, fathers, sugar daddies, etc.

I'm not mad at you... just pointing out that as you post these things you do, you're either intentionally or accidentally helping keep the very thing you say you are upset about in place.

If you don't think being a school teacher, nurse, day care, sunday school teacher, MOTHER, grandmother, etc are just as critical positions of power as CEOs and politicians, then you've completely missed the real life available on this planet.

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight

I'm 67.

You're male?

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Maslo

People are not equal, just forget gender.

The key word is "opportunity". Actually, "equal opportunity".

Women out number men. Women are graduating college at a higher percentage then men.

Where are these women in positions of power?

Statiscally it does not add up as equal.

But... the whole "equal yet different" is feminine type of mentality! It is exactly what allows us to treat our very different children with equal affection- it is one of those qualities that we have to offer to the world, that is especially ours.

In counterbalance, men have the mindset of hierarchy and competition to offer to the world- the complete opposite.
It has value too- being within a competative hierarchy weeds out the weaker bodies and minds and ideas from the genetic pool and collective consciousness. It is a valuable part of evolution.

Some areas, like politics, or physically challenging activities are very masculine based in regards to that.

I do think it can be great for a woman to learn about the masculine mindset by entering those arenas, and developing their own skills in hierarchial competition, and for some men to get into activities like humanistic endeavors (nursing, childcare, aid for the elderly, poverty stricken....) in order to develop their feminine side (different but equal).

But it just makes little sense to jump into those and simultaneously complain that hey- there is harsh competition here and aggressive fighting for positions in hierarchy!

A lot of women either do not feel compelled to enter that sort of arena, where their humanistic and ethical tendancies feel repressed by the need to pull punches. Or they try and end up being beat, just like half the men that are expected to be in those arenas just because they are male.

There are areas of activity in which the predominant mindset is everyone regarding each other with equal respect as human beings and not pull punches to get ahead.

I would agree that in the US, in recent history, those areas of social consciousness have been de-valued. But those need to be raised higher in value then. Who made those politicians? Who formed them, fed them as babies, and taught them about the exchange between self-other and social consciousness before they could speak? WOMEN.

That is the bedrock which is what will determine what kind of politicians they will become, and whether they will be in touch enough with their feminine side to fight with other politicians to value humanistic endeavors and give them a valid space in the society. Women concerned only about making little men out of babies (instead of leaving that to fathers, in the childs adolescent age) make men who think that is all that matters in the big picture.

a reply to: Bluesma

There we have it. A man who values women learned to value women at a young age. Mothers have the power to instil this ability. This is why I say women have always had a hand in culture making—the most important hand. Women are the unsung, and perhaps unrealized, soil of culture.

a reply to: Bluesma

I think I was right the first time about stereotyping.

I'm just not gonna get into that.

Repeat: Equal Opportunity.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Maslo



People are not equal, just forget gender.



The key word is "opportunity". Actually, "equal opportunity".



Women out number men. Women are graduating college at a higher percentage then men.



Where are these women in positions of power? Statisticly it does not add up to equal.



Maybe you missed the part about it's not supposed to be equal....where did you ever get the notion that life was supposed to be fair or equal ?? We are not here for a pleasure cruise we are here to grow and develop as eternal souls. It is the very fact that things are not equal or fair that bring about the circumstances for that to happen. I know it's a lot more fun for some people to argue a point endlessly but I assume some people on here would actually like to arrive at a conclusion to a matter. There is a reason why women are weaker then men and that is because if they had superior physical strength to go with their combative attitudes there would be MUCH more bullying on the earth then there presently is.

As far as dominant people rising to the top of the gene pool....Alpha boy/girl will find out they are not quite who they thought they were when Daddy/Mommy steps down and changes the alphabet on their a$$es. During this temporal phase they are allowed to succeed only to be lead out to deeper water before Daddy/Mommy sinks there boat....sorry.
Read how God hardened Pharaohs heart for an example. There is a good reason why the meek shall inherit the Earth. Incase you didn't know they weren't always meek but they eventually learned to be after MANY lifetimes.

originally posted by: Annee
You're male?