What Patriarchy?

a reply to: InTheLight

Better to ask the question "What rights are not applied equally to women or persons wishing to live alternate lifestyles?" - then read the links I posted.

I am asking you as an individual, not as a statistic. I have yet to have this question answered by any feminist so far, and since feminism is about “the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men”, it should be an easy question to answer.

So let’s speak truthfully here, like equals.

Since we have an urge to generalize, those “wishing to live alternative lifestyles” are still a part of their gender, and represent a different issue altogether. I am speaking about genders, not sexual orientation or lifestyle preferences.

The statistics you’ve pointed to do show a certain amount of inequality. However, they do not show whether this is the result of male prejudices, or the result of a lack of interest on the part of the women in question. Unfortunately, making such assumptions are slightly dangerous. The wage gap only shows that women are not working the same amount as men, which could be due to a wide variety of factors. It supplies no indication of any gender-biases—though I wouldn’t say such biases do not exist.

Let me fess up a bit. It’s obvious I take a contrarian view. It’s mostly for entertainment value, but it often leads me to some rarely explored conclusions, and I obviously receive a fair bit of resistance. So in light of these threads, it might be hard to believe but I despise sexism, or any rhetoric and violence that condemns someone for how they were born. Through my own experiences, I have known many sexist men. Their opinion is a sign of their irrationality, and with every comment they made, even in jest, it was displayed in all its peacock ugliness, and they would even kiss their mothers, the women who bore them, with their sexist mouths. In my travels, I have been witness to the subjugation of women by theocratic powers and idealists. I have witnessed brutality against women by the superstitious. But I have also witnessed the same thing happen to men, and I simply refuse to treat their experience as less valuable.

My entire family consists of women, all of whom I love dearly, and they have told me countless stories of sexual advances and abuse by their co-workers and employers. I despise it.

But then I am told I am guilty by association, that, because I choose to remain masculine, I am inherently guilty, that I should instead feminize myself, that I am in some way privileged because I was born a certain way, that I am in the way of every women who enters my vicinity, that I am a part of the problem, a glass ceiling, an inherent rapist who breaths life into a culture designed to subjugate the female population, and as a result, I should walk on egg shells, I should suppress my ambition, I should “take responsibility”, I should “man up”, I should be told how to conduct myself around women while at the same time allowing them to be who they are. I take mild offence to that, so here I am having fun with it.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I sensed that LesMis, but I don't consider myself a feminist, radical or otherwise...well maybe I was radical as a child when the boy's club birdhouse-making class teacher said I could not join the class because I was a girl...I rebelled and stayed anyway - at the age of 8 years.

I am just observing through feminine eyes and personal experiences what is not right and I have the wherewithall and gumption to speak out about it. There is really no way you can understand the subtle discrimination that a woman faces on a daily basis. Would you don a woman's garb LesMis to find out - just like "Black Like Me"?

Now, don't get me wrong, women can (with a great deal of effort - more so that a man needs to expend) attain their goals, but I have lived quite a while now and observe inequalities everywhere. Case in point, the ratio of women professors to men professors in one particular department of one particular university was so low (women professors) that I was agast.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So because the women in your family have tarred you with the same brush as sexist males, you claim the idea of patriarchy doesn't exist?
I watched a discussion about the lack of women in the cabinet, and the men on the panel kept saying should we give gays equal representation, should we give Asian equal representation, Like women were a minority, not 50% of the population. Forgetting that gays and Asian are all either male or female.
Thats life in a patriarchy for you

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So because the women in your family have tarred you with the same brush as sexist males, you claim the idea of patriarchy doesn't exist?

I think this sums up my thought in response to the topic- I truly understand the importance of acknowledging the individual in front of you, no matter what the gender. Not all men are sexist. But not recognizing the patriarchial nature of our system and culture doesn't help one differenciate themselves from the values and notions that it runs on.

On the contrary, I suspect the feeling it gives the person in front of you is that if you are unaware it exists, then you are more likely to be manipulated by it, or are so much in line with it that it is too close to see. That makes you part of it.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

But then I am told I am guilty by association, that, because I choose to remain masculine, I am inherently guilty, that I should instead feminize myself, that I am in some way privileged because I was born a certain way, that I am in the way of every women who enters my vicinity, that I am a part of the problem, a glass ceiling, an inherent rapist who breaths life into a culture designed to subjugate the female population, and as a result, I should walk on egg shells, I should suppress my ambition, I should “take responsibility”, I should “man up”, I should be told how to conduct myself around women while at the same time allowing them to be who they are. I take mild offence to that, so here I am having fun with it.

That sounds really ridiculous.

Strong minded, independent woman are not attracted to weak men. It would bore them to death.

A strong minded, independent woman wants an equal. Equality is what feminism is about.

However, bullies aren't gender specific.

a reply to: WilsonWilson

So because the women in your family have tarred you with the same brush as sexist males, you claim the idea of patriarchy doesn't exist?

No, sorry. I was "told" by pop culture and feminist theory. I have had no such issues with the women in my life, as I am the only male in their family. As long as I provide, I am not worthless.

a reply to: InTheLight

Would you don a woman's garb LesMis to find out - just like "Black Like Me"?

I will wear a dress for the day if you fix my car.

Now, don't get me wrong, women can (with a great deal of effort - more so that a man needs to expend) attain their goals, but I have lived quite a while now and observe inequalities everywhere. Case in point, the ratio of women professors to men professors in one particular department of one particular university was so low (women professors) that I was agast.

I will trust your judgement. Out of curiosity, what department was it?

a reply to: Bluesma

On the contrary, I suspect the feeling it gives the person in front of you is that if you are unaware it exists, then you are more likely to be manipulated by it, or are so much in line with it that it is too close to see. That makes you part of it.

That would make us all a part of it, wouldn't it? The same structure feminists seek an end to is the exact same society feminist ideology seeks its place within. If you've read any feminist political theory, all of it is obviously leftist, socialist or marxist—which oppose the more male-dominated structures of theocratic and capitalistic politics—yet at the same time they want their equal share of the religion and corporatism and culture that their very subjugation arises from. This almost seems paradoxical, if not hypocritical. I would argue that continuing that structure, even if it was entirely controlled and ran by women (matriarchy), or even if it was magically a straight 50/50 draw between wealth and power, equality would never be possible...between anyone.

It is too close for anyone to see.

What impresses me the most about this whole thread is how many really don't notice the tidal wave of mirrors quickly rushing their way.

For some it's hard to be content looking in the mirror without makeup on.

For others every day is being content looking in the mirror without makeup on.

IMO the whole point of the diversity of the manifestation of God through humanity is to generate all manner of circumstances. Not the least of which is the inequality that is experienced by many classes of people. But that is the whole point of the current set of human existence parameters. We as eternal souls must be subjected to all manner of testing and trial. If we were all able to view eachother as equals we would not be here. We would be existing under some other set of parameters that would try us on a new level. I have found that when we find a way to reconcile our trying circumstances by adopting a new perspective we will find that we are released from said trial as we have successfully overcome the thing within our own mind that generated the perception of inequality or more correctly the jealousy or envy that created our psychological discomfort.

This life is full of inherent inequality and it is meant to be so. These inequalities create all manner of envying and jealousy and it is up to us as individuals to reconcile ourselves to our circumstances and to be free from these things. Now I will not pretend for a second that this is some sort of easy or painless process ...it is not. In fact it pushes humanity to its limits and beyond. Yet I feel that it is an inescapable necessity to address all things that have the ability to take peace from us ( as a whole )and to overcome them by the broadening our perspectives. Now if we were all made manifest in our pure energetic form we would see that indeed we are all equal in the sense that each one of us is a pure seed of conscious existence with unlimited potential. But God through his manifold wisdom has created both vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor from the same lump of clay. And also that in Christ there is neither male nor female neither jew nor greek but we are ONE in him.

Harry

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: InTheLight

Would you don a woman's garb LesMis to find out - just like "Black Like Me"?

I will wear a dress for the day if you fix my car.

Now, don't get me wrong, women can (with a great deal of effort - more so that a man needs to expend) attain their goals, but I have lived quite a while now and observe inequalities everywhere. Case in point, the ratio of women professors to men professors in one particular department of one particular university was so low (women professors) that I was agast.

I will trust your judgement. Out of curiosity, what department was it?

There seems to be a correlation with the low percentage of women holding leadership roles in fortune 500 companies and the percentage of women professors to men in the various business departments - even though the female students outnumber the male students, as well, an important fact to note is that the female students do better scholastically than the male students. Of note, the hiring process has specified guidelines of quotas for minorities, which includes women, and still the ratio of women and minorities of the female persuasion were still lower.




The act of donning a dress to explore discrimination does not require a special skill, only a desire to learn the truth. On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.
(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Bluesma

On the contrary, I suspect the feeling it gives the person in front of you is that if you are unaware it exists, then you are more likely to be manipulated by it, or are so much in line with it that it is too close to see. That makes you part of it.

That would make us all a part of it, wouldn't it? The same structure feminists seek an end to is the exact same society feminist ideology seeks its place within. If you've read any feminist political theory, all of it is obviously leftist, socialist or marxist—which oppose the more male-dominated structures of theocratic and capitalistic politics—yet at the same time they want their equal share of the religion and corporatism and culture that their very subjugation arises from. This almost seems paradoxical, if not hypocritical. I would argue that continuing that structure, even if it was entirely controlled and ran by women (matriarchy), or even if it was magically a straight 50/50 draw between wealth and power, equality would never be possible...between anyone.

It is too close for anyone to see.

It is unwise to assume every female or male that enters a leadership role in a corporation or political arena will succumb to the programmed rote. Although it seems quite a few of them do succumb, while others quit because the pressure to conform and not rock the boat can be overwhelming (at least that is what I've read). Nevertheless, change has been made in these environments, albiet at a snail's pace.

originally posted by: InTheLight
The act of donning a dress to explore discrimination does not require a special skill, only a desire to learn the truth. On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.
(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

I would suggest joining a discussion forum as a female identity.

I have tried this experiment, joining as a male.

originally posted by: InTheLight
On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.
(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

True. The need for "physical protector" diminishes as we move to a world of intelligence.

And not all men fix cars. While I am not into engines, I do have my own power tools, as I like carpentry.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: InTheLight
On the other hand, fixing a modern car requires a computer and a college education in car mechanics.
(Notice the unequal expectations on your part (unconscious)?)

True. The need for "physical protector" diminishes as we move to a world of intelligence.

And not all men fix cars. While I am not into engines, I do have my own power tools, as I like carpentry.

Same here, while my hubby was working shift work, and while I was working fulltime and rearing two small children, I undertook home reno tasks, which required me buying power tools and such. As for getting into car engines, I recall back in the early 70's I decided to buy a book on car maintenance and while at work (during lunch) I went outside and opened up the book and car hood and proceeded to learn the basics - whereupon I was asked by three men who were walking by at different times - "Do you need help?" (Or were they hitting on me, or both?). LOL

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

That would make us all a part of it, wouldn't it? The same structure feminists seek an end to is the exact same society feminist ideology seeks its place within. If you've read any feminist political theory, all of it is obviously leftist, socialist or marxist—which oppose the more male-dominated structures of theocratic and capitalistic politics—yet at the same time they want their equal share of the religion and corporatism and culture that their very subjugation arises from. This almost seems paradoxical, if not hypocritical. I would argue that continuing that structure, even if it was entirely controlled and ran by women (matriarchy), or even if it was magically a straight 50/50 draw between wealth and power, equality would never be possible...between anyone.

It is too close for anyone to see.

I have to agree. That is why I often make comments in these sorts of threads that I am not sure true equality in all areas of the collective is possible. Things just swing from extreme to another. But I do believe it is possible for us on an individual scale- in our private lives and relationships.

I was just trying to say why I think people react a bit harshly to you here, as if you are a chauvinst yourself.
For an individual to not be part of the imbalance, you kinda expect them to take a stand against the imbalanced part of the system and separate themselves from it... which would entail acknowledging that imbalance as existing first.

I think that where I live, which is more socialist on a spectrum, than the US, women have much more power than in the US; BUT, anyone here could challenge me on that, if they looked at statistics for employment, and pay!
But the people here follow the rules and direction of their wives and mothers more than they do of their employers and state authorities. Home is the women's castle, and home is more important than work, or laws.

I think some american feminists haven't realized there are other forms of power besides getting a paycheck and official position of responsibility..... A matriarchy doesn't necessarily have a female president.

originally posted by: InTheLight
"Do you need help?" (Or were they hitting on me, or both?). LOL

Oh yeah! Been there. It's not that I can't. I did help tear apart and rebuild a motorcycle or two. I'm great at spatial thinking.

I have sensitive hands (not gender specific). I don't like anything on my hands. That includes jewelry, creams, manicures, as well as grease. But, swinging a hammer, the feel of power tools, constructing something --- that's different.

originally posted by: Bluesma

But the people here follow the rules and direction of their wives and mothers more than they do of their employers and state authorities. Home is the women's castle, and home is more important than work, or laws.

I think some american feminists haven't realized there are other forms of power besides getting a paycheck and official position of responsibility..... A matriarchy doesn't necessarily have a female president.

I prefer -- women in their lives. Not every woman is a wife and/or mother.

True feminism is about equality --- equal opportunity. True feminism supports the woman's choice of how she wants to live her life. True feminism also supports the woman who chooses to stay at home -- the "homemaker".

Being in my 60s, I definitely support the radical feminists who affected change for gender equality. However, "radical is radical" --- it is not the behavior of every woman who wants equal opportunity.

My daughter drives one of those humongous trucks in a gold mine. She gets equal pay for equal work. Is she treated as an equal? That would be a NO!

originally posted by: Annee
I would suggest joining a discussion forum as a female identity.

I have... both in First Person shooters where it's just a name... and MMO where it's an avatar as well.

Guess what I found... men who are assholes treat both men and women like assholes. When being an asshole to a guy, they use terms men find derogatory. When being an asshole to a woman, they use terms women find derogatory.

Guess what I also found. The amount of special positive treatment I got from BOTH genders was astounding.

I prefer to play as a woman online because on the whole the treatment was far more positive. The women I see thriving in men's worlds are the ones who learned to understand male dynamics. Just like men who thrive in female worlds learn to understand all the talking behind backs, fake smiles and compliments, etc. For a male going into the female culture it's soul crushing at first... but since females are used to it "it's no big deal".

Guess what... that goes both ways.

It's not like women and submissive men were the dominant headcount of people guiding my development when I was a little boy. It's not like women were unfairly represented relative to the number of men in school, day care, etc. Sure... the absolute overwhelming dominance of females in the formative years of little boys has *nothing* to do with the sort of men they become. Only men turn men into jerks towards women.

Then again, I've got balls so what do I know.