What Patriarchy?

originally posted by: mikegrouchy

originally posted by: Bluesma

LOL- Mr. Grouchy, as I said, it is your delivery there that is flawed, not the basic ideas.

Nobody trusts a furious victim. They won't follow one.

Good. I'm not a leader, and nobody should follow me.

Also the name is Grouchy, not Furious.

Mike Grouchy

I believe I wrote "Mr. Grouchy"?
Your metaphor works for people as well as horses-
I suggest the problem is not the water, but that you can't get them to even follow you to the water, even horses don't trust a man that expresses himself to be emotional, and powerless.

Try that whining with a horse and see if you can even get him a few steps behind you.
The very maternal mares might, out of sympathy, but they won't drink your water.

If you haven't beaten the system personally, as an individual, why do you consider yourself anyone we should listen to in how to do so?


Yes, the exterior world has always offered challenges for men to overcome, it used to be saber toothed tigers. Now it is a sexist educational system. Some are coming out victors. Some aren't and sitting around bitching about it.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: mikegrouchy

originally posted by: Bluesma

LOL- Mr. Grouchy, as I said, it is your delivery there that is flawed, not the basic ideas.

Nobody trusts a furious victim. They won't follow one.

Good. I'm not a leader, and nobody should follow me.

Also the name is Grouchy, not Furious.

Mike Grouchy

I believe I wrote "Mr. Grouchy"?
Your metaphor works for people as well as horses-
I suggest the problem is not the water, but that you can't get them to even follow you to the water, even horses don't trust a man that expresses himself to be emotional, and powerless.

Try that whining with a horse and see if you can even get him a few steps behind you.
The very maternal mares might, out of sympathy, but they won't drink your water.

If you haven't beaten the system personally, as an individual, why do you consider yourself anyone we should listen to in how to do so?


Yes, the exterior world has always offered challenges for men to overcome, it used to be saber toothed tigers. Now it is a sexist educational system. Some are coming out victors. Some aren't and sitting around bitching about it.

Pure emotionality, innuendo, and irrelevance.

The quote above neither answers the question posed by the thread Author "What Patriarchy?" nor contributes anything meaningful to the discussion. It was written by someone who thinks they matter. It does nothing unfortunately. Other than carry water for the marginalization of men in general.

Neither contributes, nor offers solutions.

What was the phrase earlier ... oh yes ... "either an alpha or a loser."

I am the Alpha and the Loser.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Allow me to explain in terms we can all understand.

Patriarchy is to Feminism, as Jewry is to Nazism.
Patriarchy;Feminism=Crackpots; Lizard people.
Patriarchy;Feminism=Other Crackpots; Free masons.

Which is to say, some scape goat bogey man Feminists use to further their supremacist, anti-western(even anti-civilization), anti-science,and anti-male agenda. It's cultural Marxism, and practically an extremist racist-sexist group at this point. You'd be better off avoiding them or ridiculing them.



Here's EXACTLY what they all are, straight from the horse's mouth.

a reply to: InTheLight

That just validates what the woman in the video above is saying, BOTH men and women take women's side in this (obviously) contrived hegelian dialectic.

They are messing with gender roles, it's psychological warfare and feminism is just another tool, a confused and divided population is the result, who will be too concerned with non issues to really do something about their own mental slavery. They get to introduce yet another false dischotomy.. we're left with confused youngsters, females trying to express their masculinity and vice versa, but it's a farce.. nothing more than a vain fashion statement in this modern plastic world. Group pressure.. reinforced conformity, thought police.

I don't see any actual discrimination against women where I live.. they do have perks though, but it must be so tempting, to feel like you're part of some great crusade against inequality, in reality they are fighting windmills and the door they are frantically trying to kick in was opened decades ago.

One thing that has repeatedly amused me is the notion that feminism is somehow disenfranchised by the establishment, when in fact, almost all of academia and all major parties tow the feminist line, at least where I live(Sweden). So not only are they not dissenters, they are the political orthodoxy.. but for some reason they imagine themselves to be persecuted.

I just don't know what they expect, they've already got the same rights as everybody else, they've already got affirmative action..

would you feel safer with another male point of view? would that comfort you? Ok fine

I as a man see it day in and day out. It's clear as day in the rampant and up-to-the-minute objectification of women...period

(back to that in a second)

women are underrepresented in positions of power (CEO's government and the like). Now a lot of men might say "Well they don't chase that power or they don't chase that goal" but consider the source

Men on the whole (myself included) will never understand what it means to be a woman...period...try all you want it isn't going to happen.

I am married...almost 11 years in August. I don't know what it is like to be cat called just walking down the street, I don't know what it's like to be a PhD student in genetics and get told that this is for the boys, I don't know what it's like to have to clutch a purse or sit in the back of the bus so your back isn't facing a guy because those particular fellows are looking at you like a piece of meat, I don't know what it feels like to be unheard, unvoiced, not listened to because of the gender I was born with

You know who has? My wife? I'd love...LOVE to say she was just some random statistical anomaly. I'd love to say that she was the only woman who ever experienced this (well not personally...but you get my point)

but the fact is I cannot say that and neither can statistics. Sexual assault, harrassment, and day to day mysogny exist despite the lack of recognition of said existence

See I can go to work and not have guys try to stare down my shirt (and thank god because ain't nobody got time for that). I can stand up and make a statement as a leader and people listen without thinking I am a ballbuster. Hell if I weren't married I could sleep with 50 women...tonight...and be a hero to men everywhere. Monuments would be erected to my prowess. But the reverse is so true about all of these things for women

Whereas I can 'conquer' many sexual adventures, a woman sleeps with a couple guys in here life and she is (well I am not going to say the word). A woman becomes a leader and she's a ballbuster. A woman decides to dress nice and eyes immediately go to the chest as if some downshirt view of her is going to make things soooo much more comfortable for that guy.

Not satisfied? (probably aren't...and the next part won't satisfy you either)

So let's get away from microagressions on a daily scale...and back to my first point

Go look at magazines for women like US or People...I see em every time I shop and grab a candy bar from the impulse rack.

Women...in bikinis and being talked about...not about their acting or singing skills, not about their positions or accomplishments...but about their breasts, stomach, butt...blah blah blah

And god help her if she gains a few....WOOOO disaster right there. She immediately becomes devalued because she doesn't fit in society's pretty little picture frame for her.

Christina Aguilera gained weight...quite a bit for a while and that's all anyone could talk about...personally I don't care so much for her music but she has a hell of a voice...but doesn't matter she was -gasp- overweight...no longer worth anything to society
Then the ‘best’ one…US had their monthly ‘best and worst’ bikini bodies issue that catches my eye. It has Katie Holmes on the cover. She is in a bikini sitting, leg’s out and bending forward a bit (details of why this is important in a second)

Flat tummy, looking great. But seriously, sit like that and lean forward, your stomach will almost invariably roll a bit. And next to her stomach is a caption that says “Belly Jelly”. How offensive and insulting. This is what we are worried about? Katie Holmes, looking stunning and sitting in that position guaranteed to make anyone roll a bit…No we don’t care about her acting prowess or accomplishments, just how she looks in a bikini. Even if you legitimately don’t like her acting…awesome...judge her as an actor then…tell me she was terrible in Batman Begins…I may or may not agree but at least you are talking about her as an artist and that is your right…not a piece of meat.

Then next to it the have some (apparent) actress or musician in a bikini who has clearly gained weight. Her face is covered and the caption says “You’ll never guess who this is!” WHO CARES! Is this really all she is worth? I mean it…you don’t see this OP? It’s everywhere

I am not in much a position to talk about bodies…I am overweight by probably 40 pounds and I’ll be frank…a lot of that is in my abdominal region

But here is the kicker…I am not judged by that. It’s perfectly ok with me being overweight because as a male I am judged on my actions, my speech, my personality…meanwhile women are judge on two very unimportant things…I am sure you can guess…and when they don’t ‘fit’ to standards…well to heck with her then!

Sarah Palin did not become VP…thanks god…but that’s my politics speaking. She IMO was very unfit for the position. Michelle Obama DID however become first lady. And while there are plenty of resources talking about the first lady’s accomplishments, we all want to know what she is wearing! Society was more concerned with Palin being a ‘MILF’ as opposed to her politics

OP…it’s there…the patriarchy is there. It is ALL around you every single day…and it’s very easy to not see it when you aren’t the victim of the system. Myself included …I used to catch myself looking at a woman, which I don’t believe is inherently wrong but then I would catch myself like making some snap judgment on her because she was pretty…and people don’t see anything wrong with this? I sure as hell did. I don’t claim perfection…I am so far from perfection it isn’t silly. Yes I think Jennifer Lawrence is beautiful…I am not afraid to deny it…but I like to look at her as an actress…like I said if you want to hate Katniss Everdeen and dislike Jennifer’s portrayal or Katniss…awesome…we won’t all agree on that. But perhaps we need to start moving past this idea that women’s worth is directly related to her looks…so if you want to pretend it doesn’t exist…hell that’s fine too. It’s a free country…but don’t talk about it like it never exists because you either fail to see it (which is understandable because we are men) or rather see it and are ignorant to it…

It’s there…go talk to women…honestly…talk to them and ask what it’s like to be them

I am not speaking for women…I am not even saying this is the experience of all women. Some women have found some magical method to burst through the patriarchy and thrive…but then I guess she’s just a ballbuster? Hell I am not even saying all men feel the way I am talking about...but it is out there...look the the whole 'friendzone' thing. It's like saying "My friend OWES me sex but is denying me...I'm a victim"

Guys can be victims too I don't deny that. I'd even be willing to say that many guys don't report it. It sucks seeing a woman divorce and take everything from him and his kids too. All I am saying is the system is weighed against one gender and has been for ages

Yeah…that is how I feel…and I am certainly not sorry for saying it

Now if we could go ahead and cue the “KyoZero is only doing this to score” posts that’d be great

Someone who cites popular media, as proof of patriarchy ... I don't even ... I mean where to start ... does the reader realize that the conspiracy thinkers on this forum largely reject the MSM? Feminism has poisoned academia and is generating unfounded hatred against the individual male, by slandering men as a group. Just as the post above is doing.

The modern revisionism that created the battle of the sexes,
is not science. It's not even poor science. It is destructive
to science.






She opens by saying, in the first minute that it started because a woman online came into a "male safe space" for abused husbands and men, and started of by openly trolling the guys saying that men were wrong that they were just a bunch of whiners and complaining over nothing.

These individual battered men are not
oppressing anyone, leering at anyone,
or ridiculing anyone for being a few
pounds over. But apparently they
cannot even have their own safe
space to heal their wounds
either.

The delusion in the post above
mine is so strong it is palpable.

Feminism has become a religion
of fanaticism, and it is flying
towards sparagmos mountain.


Mike Grouchy



“Three things only do slaves require: work, food, and their religion.”

6th column
- Robert Heinlein

Stop Fem-Splaining:

What ‘Women Against Feminism’ Gets Right

The latest skirmish on the gender battlefield is “Women Against Feminism”: women and girls taking to the social media to declare that they don’t need or want feminism, usually via photos of themselves with handwritten placards.

Cathy Young
12:14 pm
Time (magazine online) link to article

Sure enough this is a thing that is trending.
Right now.


I've been reading around the internet about it,
and some interesting things have, and are being said.






Here is a BBC video highlighting the trend.
Uploaded this day.

Feminists attack men protecting church

This shows the side that the media never shows.

Ho ly - snot-rockets - batman, there is some major blow-back against feminism going down on this web page.

tumblr: women against feminism

Things that make honest people go hmmm....

What would "The Patriarchy" look like if it were secretly lead by women through male puppets?

originally posted by: mikegrouchy
Ho ly - snot-rockets - batman, there is some major blow-back against feminism going down on this web page.

tumblr: women against feminism

I cried a little... in the good way.

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight
Things that make honest people go hmmm....

What would "The Patriarchy" look like if it were secretly lead by women through male puppets?

THIS is why I can speak of my perception of imbalances in cultural values, while not getting really upset about it.

What I percieve is that there is what happens in appearences, and what is going on underneath.....

No matter what, I think male and female powers are active, it is just a matter of which are being openly acknowledged and accepted by the collective culture!

In times of highest male domination in culture, the women have a strong hold on power too- but they do it behind the curtain)- they get good at finding a man who appreciates their insights and abilities, and lets himself be influenced (in some cases formed) by her. "Behind every good man is a good woman". Powerful women stand behind their husband, pretending to be powerless and meek, all the while being holding the invisible reins of their man.

This could make some men grince their teeth. But on the other hand, it means that the men who become successful are the ones that understand appreciate the feminine principle.

I don't claim to be very aware of the state of things in other countries currently- I have been an expat for a long time. Where I am now, the feminine power is collectively celebrated openly, and women are expected to be very open about their power- in the society an in relationships. In some cases, they make a show of it, with the full encouragement of their male partners. In the same way women were once proud to be seen with a forceful and dominating husband, the men here like to be seen with such a woman- it says something about them, that she chose him! If she is demanding, with high standards, a critical mind, then who she chooses to partner with must be of excellent character, will and ethics.

I tend to dislike acting in a dominant position, especially in front of people. My husband will often be telling them how I am the guide for him and the source of his success, while I am embarrassed.
I was asked two days ago why I am not being strict with him about his eating habits and weight, I answered that I would not put up with him telling me how to eat or what to do, and would not do that to another. The looks on our friends faces was clearly the decision that I am a wimp. -and these were two men. This moment was the equivalent of two women judging a man as a wimp because he doesn't control his wife as he should, in a masculine based culture.

Even where the women are socially accepted to be the dominant power, the men still have a hidden influence going on. You find couples where the couple is both putting on a show of her being the one who wears the skirt in the family, while in secret, he is really, actually, the one pulling the strings in the background (through both of their choice).

This is much about appearences and socially acceptable shows put on. As individuals, we have much more freedom than we claim.

a reply to: KyoZero

I have to say that I believe that this issue is a little more complex then most of us would tend to think. I see alot of issues being addressed on here. As far as women being looked at as a piece of meat ....it is very true that they have to a great extent been objectified by society and yet it is also true that many of them capitalize on this fact. As I said earlier I fully believe that they are "in charge" ...if you will. They are able to create and utilize ALL circumstances for their purposes. Which I believe is the testing and development of souls. That is why in my opinion that the Whore is utilized in the Bible as a metaphor for the power that is being exercised on the earth at this time. A whore or harlot represents in the most powerful way both the objectification of women and also the the utilization by women of that objectification. Now having said all of this I do not think that every woman is necessarily a knowing participent in this process...after all they are here to develop as well.

Harry

originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: KyoZero

I have to say that I believe that this issue is a little more complex then most of us would tend to think. I see alot of issues being addressed on here. As far as women being looked at as a piece of meat ....it is very true that they have to a great extent been objectified by society and yet it is also true that many of them capitalize on this fact. As I said earlier I fully believe that they are "in charge" ...if you will. They are able to create and utilize ALL circumstances for their purposes. Which I believe is the testing and development of souls. That is why in my opinion that the Whore is utilized in the Bible as a metaphor for the power that is being exercised on the earth at this time. A whore or harlot represents in the most powerful way both the objectification of women and also the the utilization by women of that objectification. Now having said all of this I do not think that every woman is necessarily a knowing participent in this process...after all they are here to develop as well.

Harry

Indeed, and as such, when men continually objectify women as whores, it is they that must develop (in a big way) beyond their primitive urges. However, I have never used my sexuality for the upper hand or power as you allude to, rather I remain a person first.

Hey Les Mis, are you taking this all in?

a reply to: InTheLight
I completely agree that men in general need to have a pardigm shift in their view of women. I struggle myself not to evaluate women by their "sex appeal" and I fully wish that I could first and foremost view them as fellow humans engaged in the day to day struggles of this life ( And I should add that I believe women for the most part have tougher existences here then men). As much as I realize that these changes need to be made I also realize that these parameters ( Natural inclination of men to view women as sexual objects)were put into place in order to cause us to have to become aware of our wrong thinking and to overcome it. I believe that is what is symbolized by the Harlot and the Virgin in the book of Revelation. I believe they are one and the same. The Harlot being "sanctified" and becoming as a virgin. I believe this sanctification comes about by the male side of conscious energy justifying the Harlot ( female side of conscious energy) by realizing that He created her by his own impurities.

Harry

a reply to: InTheLight

Indeed, and as such, when men continually objectify women as whores, it is they that must develop (in a big way) beyond their primitive urges. However, I have never used my sexuality for the upper hand or power as you allude to, rather I remain a person first.

Hey Les Mis, are you taking this all in?

I cannot disagree, and I would also like to state that when women continually objectify men as money machines, they should also develop, in a massive way, beyond those primitive urges. But I don't want to make this about women vs. men, for, as you might have noticed, not all women are advocates of feminism, and not all women fear and demonize as caveman or "primitive" male masculinity. Masculinity and femininity can work together.

And I still refuse to believe that women are the weaker sex, that every one of you all are damsels in distress because you are a woman, and that women have always been the submissive to male domination. As we know, a woman can be smarter and stronger than any most men. Yet woman has been forced against her will to serve her male masters for thousands of years? Only now have they figured out how to stand up for themselves? If so, then the patriarchy is simply an example of feminine stupidity and weakness, an admission to a slave-like nature. Isn't that so?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: InTheLight

Indeed, and as such, when men continually objectify women as whores, it is they that must develop (in a big way) beyond their primitive urges. However, I have never used my sexuality for the upper hand or power as you allude to, rather I remain a person first.

Hey Les Mis, are you taking this all in?

I cannot disagree, and I would also like to state that when women continually objectify men as money machines, they should also develop, in a massive way, beyond those primitive urges. But I don't want to make this about women vs. men, for, as you might have noticed, not all women are advocates of feminism, and not all women fear and demonize as caveman or "primitive" male masculinity. Masculinity and femininity can work together.

And I still refuse to believe that women are the weaker sex, that every one of you all are damsels in distress because you are a woman, and that women have always been the submissive to male domination. As we know, a woman can be smarter and stronger than any most men. Yet woman has been forced against her will to serve her male masters for thousands of years? Only now have they figured out how to stand up for themselves? If so, then the patriarchy is simply an example of feminine stupidity and weakness, an admission to a slave-like nature. Isn't that so?

That is an oversimplification and does not address the vastly different societal and family needs back when patriarchy was the norm, as well as women having really no other options for an alternative lifestyle. I recall a play I saw in Toronto in the mid-70's - it took place at the turn of the century (1900) and was about single working women who rented roooms at a women's-only boarding house. The number one rule stated that if any woman was not in before 8:00 p.m. at night that she would then be locked out of the house all night. Needless to say, treating women as slaves was the norm.

a reply to: InTheLight

It almost sounds like The Boarding House by James Joyce in the Dubliners, except the boarding house was started and ran by a woman. It's a good read if you get the chance. Needless to say, the story outlines the fact that women could also run their own boarding house in which both men and women were the tenants.

Reply to: LesMisanthrope

I find it somewhat strange that 50% of a human population is responsible for 100% of its culture.

Since that 50% can beat the living daylights out of the other 50% any time it pleases, it isn't strange at all.

I can't believe that you, LesMisanthrope, are actually advocating this revolting chauvinist position.

This thread makes me want to spew.

a reply to: Astyanax

Since that 50% can beat the living daylights out of the other 50% any time it pleases, it isn't strange at all.

I can't believe that you, LesMisanthrope, are actually advocating this revolting chauvinist position.

This thread makes me want to spew.

So you are advocating that women are the weaker sex? I don't think you know what chauvinism means.