Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

originally posted by: WanDash

originally posted by: VoidHawk
...Two men go hiking. Only one comes back.
He knows his friend is lost in the wilderness without food water or even his shoes.
While trying to find his way out he stumbles upon two fishermen.
Imagine you were him, you've been stumbling around in the wilderness desperately trying to find your lost friend and you come across two people who could offer some serious help. What would any normal person do in that situation? thats right, they'd tell them whats happened!!
However, this guy, says nothing!
That is NOT normal behavior!

I have genuinely appreciated your contributions to this discussion, VoidHawk...
I would like, though, to address the excerpted portion, above...

I find it unbelievable that the two fishermen found the campsite without being, at least, 'tipped' to its location, by Byars.
And, if he told them nothing more than "I need help finding my car/truck"...I don't see why they would have headed back in the direction of the campsite...as creek (read - intermittently &/or mostly dry-creek) fishing would probably-not have been their aim...
AND...just seeing a 'campsite' during daylight, does not mean that it is abandoned - so - what might have alerted them to its significance if they had not been given some kind of story by Byars...?

Just my thoughts on this one of your questions.

I must have missed something somewhere, I think I need to go back over the thread.
I do agree that the fishermen must have been told something.


To those still watching this thread
Do you believe the story that Herdsman ran off into the night chasing his dog?

Put yourself in his place.
Your dog suddenly runs off into the night and you decide to chase after it.
Dogs dont run in straight lines so which direction will you run?
Will you just randomly choose a direction and start running?

Maybe he could hear the dog barking?
Dogs don't bark while running because it slows them down, they time there breathing to match there strides.
If he could hear the dog barking then it hadn't gone far and would have been relatively stationary. If thats the case then why didn't both Herdsman AND Byars find the dog? Remember, Byars tells us that they both looked for the dog!

I think anyone experienced with dogs would agree that in the given situation you would not chase after the dog, instead you would remain in camp and call to it!

Many many times I have watched my own dog follow his own trail to find his way back to me. Herdsman spent a lot of time outside with his own dog and I'm certain he would have been aware that his own dog would know how to find its way back to him.
If the dog hadn't returned by morning then yes, I'd expect him to start searching, but to run off into the night just does not add up.

If I were the police and Byars told me that story I'd be VERY suspicious!

a reply to: VoidHawk

i don't know what happened out there, but i do know that if it were my dog who ran off i would chase after him. even if i were naked or taking a sh!t with my pants down.

and for all people it probably depends on the dog. not all dogs are "off-leash" dogs. and i would imagine it also depends further on how the dog left the camp site. if my dog just was sniffing around lazily and hanging out i wouldn't care if he went a little further than the set up perimeter.

but, if i saw my dog bolt with purpose like he was going after something or scared i would definitely chase after him. not even saying thats the smart thing to do in that situation, but i would want to make sure he's in sight and safe.

a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

I don't believe Byars story will ever make sense and if it
remains as it is now. It will never be believable, nor was it
from the start. But to assume he's the one who fabricated it
may be far from the truth. Just looking at the over all picture
of everything we've been told? It looks more like the story was
fabricated by the police, using only pieces of the truth as told
by Taylor Byars. Not even the cops would buy this crap. But when
it's your crap, you don't have to buy it.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

But when
it's your crap, you don't have to buy it.

bingo! couldn't agree more. when you look at this whole thing through that lens it makes sense.

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov
a reply to: VoidHawk

if i saw my dog bolt with purpose like he was going after something or scared i would definitely chase after him.

Thanks for the reply.

You've hit my nail on the head

Your dogs just bolted from your camp. He's running MUCH faster than you and its dark!
You cant see your dog so....which direction will you run?
With 360dg to choose from the odds are 359 to 1 that you'll be going in the wrong direction!
Also, your dog might return to camp while you're still out looking for him, he'll see your not there and again he'll run off!

Suppose your dog realizes he's lost his way back to camp! how will he find his way back?

It makes much more sense to me to stay in camp and keep calling to him. By doing so he has a sound to lead him back, also if he should cross your tracks (scent) it should lead him straight back to you.
However, if you run out from camp you're creating more tracks that might confuse him! Also, any calling you do will keep changing location, adding even more to his confusion.

We're told Herdsman ran off into the dark after his dog, and if we believe the story thats been told to us, then we should note the consequences of his actions!

I realise my knowledge of dogs has been gained through experiences with my own dog and those of my friends, but I have to say all of those dogs would easily have found their way back to camp, even if they had been chasing after something!

Also to add. A frightened dog will not run off, it will get behind its master (pack leader)!

I think it's easy to psychoanalyze the situation in retrospect, but the truth is, people are impulsive and make spur-of-the-moment decisions that turn out to be stupid in retrospect all the time. It's easy to look back at what happened and say "Well, I would never do that!" I think that you can never be 100% certain about what you would do in any given situation until you're actually in that situation. Some people would just give their dog up for lost or say "Meh, he'll come back soon". Other people love their dog so much that they would throw themselves in front of a train to save it.

This case, so far, just doesn't scream paranormal to me. There are many scenarios (some more likely than others) that could have lead to the man's death out there in the woods. I'm just not convinced that it was anything that can't be explained.

a reply to: Charizard

It has been explained, it was an accident. But it wasn't in
any woods, it was in the night but under a full moon light.
And it was very bright because I remember it specifically by
a comment. Of course it can be explained, that's obvious.
Question is, do you believe it?

a reply to: Charizard

Hi Charizard

I agree about peoples responses to their dog running of will vary, but Herdsman and his dog were both experienced hikers. I feel quite confident that his dog would have had many opportunities to run off, certainly enough times for Herdsman to know whether the dog was capable of finding its way back to camp.
If his dog was in any way a liability I'm sure he would not have taken it with him, or at least kept it on a leash.
He did neither so its probably safe to assume he did not worry if his dog wandered off.

I'm in the uk, and over here we dont have big cats and bears etc to worry about, if a dog takes off we only have to worry about it finding its way back, therefore we tend to let them roam free quite a lot when out walking, thats how I know they can easily find their way back, in fact there's barely a single walk where the dog DOESN'T take off. On the odd occasion that something does frighten them they always run back to their master and stand behind them.

While I agree that we weren't there, and can never really know what happened, personally I dont believe this part of the story. I know dogs, and I think Herdsman knew his dog, and just like me I reckon he would not have run off into the dark wilderness, with no shoes, he would have waited and called to it because thats the only sensible thing to do.

About the whole dog thing: once, while I was walking my dog, his leash broke and he ran away like he was insane. And I ran after him like I was insane too. He stopped in the middle of a street, I threw myself on the floor to get him. We almost died cause there was a car coming. We were lucky that the person had enough time to stop the car, but it was REALLY close. Thinking back, I could've dealt with that in many other ways, but I didn't have the time for that back then. I saw my dog running, I ran after him.

a reply to: LukeDAP

Well I'm glad you and your dog were ok.
You were really lucky the driver wasn't drunk or on
ecstacy. Because if he would have hit you? I doubt
if anyone could find you for like, two weeks. And by
that time there's no tell'n what they'll be say'n about
ya!

Oh and experienced dog walkers can tell if a leash is
damaged. Because they can see it when they put it on
their dog.

a reply to: randyvs

Considering I had no ID on me and I had left my phone at home, they wouldn't have found me too soon, true. Thankfully, we were both okay.

And I wouldn't say I was an experienced dog walker... I was sixteen and had had my dog for only a year then (and he's my first pet).

Of course, my whole situation is very obviously nothing like what happened here. I just thought I'd add that, sometimes, we don't think straight when it comes to beings that we love. While I'd think that a guy who hikes frequently and is a fireman would probably keep his cool a lot better than little sixteen-year-old me, it's not completely insane that, as he saw his dog running away at night, he simply acted on an impulse.

a reply to: LukeDAP

Maybe his dog killed him? That would explain why he ran.
I'm just kidd'n.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Charizard

It has been explained, it was an accident. But it wasn't in
any woods, it was in the night but under a full moon light.
Question is, do you believe it?

Can you clarify this point, please? It was my understanding that he disappeared in rocky/mountainous, forested terrain and was later found up the side of a cliff (I hate to call it cliff because it doesn't look like the type of ciffs we have around here that are just sheer vertical walls).

Do I believe it? So far, I have no reason not to. But I do have an open mind. I watched a few of those Missing 411 videos and the guy didn't go into great detail about each case, but some sounded rather ordinary and completely explainable to me. However, others, if the way he presented the cases was factual, are really just completely baffling. For this case, SO FAR, there are just too many logical scenarios in my mind to rule a case like this to be "high strangeness". I know these scenarios have been posted before, I could see any of these being real possibilities:

-Herdman and Byars got into an argument and Byars either intentionally or unintentionally injured/killed Herdman and then tried to cover it up by hiding his body and concocting the story about him running off into the woods after his dog

-The two (or just Herdman) were doing some kind of drugs and Herdman suffered some type of paranoid delusion and ran off or fell and hit his head, ultimately resulting in his death. Byars, afraid he would be held responsible or out of feelings of guilt, decides to cover it up. I know it was said that the cops don't consider Byar to have any involvement, but if they do suspect him they would probably want to keep that secret while they try to build a case.

-Byar's story is true, Herdman really did run after his dog, became lost, stumbled and fell.

The one thing I cannot readily explain though, is the body location. The toxicology reports do say drugs were in his system (I have no reason to doubt this report right now) and I suppose the right drugs could give someone the drive (and right amount of poor judgment) to scale that terrain.

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that the autopsy revealed that he died from a head wound, but all I see is "blunt force trauma", the reports I read don't specify where.

I'm curious: If you all reject normal explanations then what are your theories? Alien abduction? Sasquatch? Wild people? Some type of energy vortex that plucks people up and flings them into the side of a mountain? It's a serious question, by the way. I always love to hear people's theories about mysterious things.

but Herdsman and his dog were both experienced hikers. I feel quite confident that his dog would have had many opportunities to run off, certainly enough times for Herdsman to know whether the dog was capable of finding its way back to camp.

The problem I have with this type of thinking is that people often assume that because someone is "experienced", they can't possibly make mistakes. Experienced pilots crash planes. Experienced soldiers get killed on the battlefield. Experienced fishermen drown at sea. Experienced skiers get caught in avalanches. So while it may be unlikely that an experienced hiker would end up dead while hiking, it's not impossible. Sometimes experience leads to overconfidence. Then if you factor in drug use, which is alleged...

Another thing is that animals are wild at heart, despite how domesticated they appear to be, and as such are unpredictable. How many animal attack cases have you seen where the owner swears up and down that their pet is just the sweetest, most loving, most gentle thing in the whole world, sleeps with their baby, heels on command, has never once even so much as growled at another person or animal.

Again, I'm open to theories and evidence. I really would like to hear ideas about how his body came to be where it was.

a reply to: Charizard

Can you clarify this point, please?

Do a google search on Mike Herdman, spend some time look'n
at the terrain photos where the search was conducted.
Just so you at least have that much go'in on. Then you can
comeback, regurgitate everything that you think happened.

Maybe you'll even be able to choose from all the many logical
ways you can see this happening. And lay it all out for us.
Explain why the dogs couldn't find herdmen when he was
found only quater mile away, by the the chopper pilot.
Explain how trained search and rescue k-9 could not pic up
the scent. Explain a lot more at the same time you lay it
all out for us making sense of it all as you tell us just
exactly what happened. And " People are impulsive" isn't
gonna cut it.


How bout that?

Sherlock?

Again, I'm open to theories and evidence.

Oh, you're open to theories and evidence. Shall I alert the media?

I really would like to hear ideas about how his body came to be where it was.

Why? When one theory is as good as the next? The ants carried him there.
No one is ever going to know, how his body got there, because the case is closed.
Which means the cops don't even want to know. He fell there, died there and may
have been drug into some, what looks like chest high tundra, in the immediate
vicinity of his "Cliff side fall". By " Some animals" as I recall the "Officials" saying it.

originally posted by: LukeDAP
About the whole dog thing: once, while I was walking my dog, his leash broke and he ran away like he was insane. And I ran after him like I was insane too. He stopped in the middle of a street, I threw myself on the floor to get him. We almost died cause there was a car coming. We were lucky that the person had enough time to stop the car, but it was REALLY close. Thinking back, I could've dealt with that in many other ways, but I didn't have the time for that back then. I saw my dog running, I ran after him.

Well, although you've covered Herdsmans possible scenario fully, its not really relevant to this case!

Walking a dog in the street or near busy roads is a whole world away from being in the wild! There really is no comparison!

Have you ever taken your dog on a hike in the wilderness?

Think about it, when is a dog ever truly free? I mean really free!!!
The only time a domestic dog is ever truly free is while hiking!
They are free because their master can LET GO!!! He can break the link that responsible dog owners must maintain when near roads or even near other people, which is 99% of a dogs life!

Dogs absolutely love to be totally free. They become their own master, they decide where they'll walk, what they'll sniff and how long they'll spend sniffing it!
They can poo wherever they want, as often as they want, while facing in any direction they want! and if they feel like scratching a completely pointless hole slightly to one side of the poo, they will!
These are all VERY important and enjoyable tasks that a dog feels he must carry out as often as possible while out on a hike, and he'll love it!

In between those activities he'll amuse himself by following a really interesting scent trail, that trail could take him hundreds of yards from his pack, if he should lose sight of them he'll just pick up their scent and catch up very quickly.
Often he'll take of like a rocket because he's seen a rabbit or some other small rodent that he considers worthy chasing, sometimes an extremely fresh scent - just a minute or two old, it will cause him to take off even faste that if he'd actually seen something! Herdsman will have witnessed this many times and would not be startled or panicked by it!

In the wilderness a dog is far less likely to come to harm than a human. They are much more steady on their feet, they can outrun most things, they are well equipped to deal with temperatures, they can catch or find their own food and water, they have big sharp teeth for protection, they have an amazing radar system disguised as a nose and they have a pair of ears that give all round surveillance!

Anyone who's spent time in the wilderness with their dog (Herdsman!) will be fully aware how comfortable and well equipped a dog is when its in the wild, they most certainly do not need us to look after them!

In a town situation such as you describe a dog is at an extreme disadvantage because he hasn't got a clue about traffic rules etc. A dog loose near roads will not live very long, thats why we are forced to maintain a mental link between our selves and the dog.
Because of the constant link that must be maintained a kind of illusion is set up, an illusion that causes the large majority of dog owners from ever realizing what they've got! the illusion being that the dog is somehow fragile!

Herdsmans relationship with his dog would not have been the same as you have with your dog, I can easily tell that from what you've written.
Herdsman often took his dog hiking, he would have been fully aware the dog was easily his equal while in that environment.
Also, something I've not seen anyone consider yet!!! Whether its day or a very dark night, it would mean little to the dog, he can still see hear and smell! Did Herdsman chase after his dog in the day time? No? So why chase after it at night! its all the same to a dog, though its usually quieter at night which just makes the dog even more aware of his surroundings.

In the town YOU must be in control, not the dog, if you dont have control when the leash breaks then you will no doubt have to leap like superman into the path of a speeding truck to save the dog, however, Herdsmans situation did not require him to be so heroic!

Who was it that survived that night, the dog? or Herdsman?

Dogs are tough, those that go hiking with their dogs know it!

a reply to: Charizard
The problem I have with this type of thinking

What type of thinking would that be?
I'm simply offering the most logical (normal) type of thinking. You are presenting the most unlikely "type of thinking". While those unlikely and extremely rare events that you present MIGHT happen and are indeed possible, it does not make my "type of thinking" a "problem".

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: LukeDAP

Maybe his dog killed him? That would explain why he ran.

I'm just kidd'n.

I could go with that, it makes more sense than chasing the dog, at night

a reply to: Charizard

-The two (or just Herdman) were doing some kind of drugs and Herdman suffered some type of paranoid delusion and ran off or fell and hit his head, ultimately resulting in his death. Byars, afraid he would be held responsible or out of feelings of guilt, decides to cover it up. I know it was said that the cops don't consider Byar to have any involvement, but if they do suspect him they would probably want to keep that secret while they try to build a case.

I have a lot of trouble believing the medical examiner's "toxicology" report. See my reasons back on page 40 of this thread.
I have no idea what happened out there and my imagination isn't nearly as fertile as some folks who have posted here. But I do know, from having studied a bit of forensic anthropology with some of the nation's best, that if the medical examiner was able to do toxicology tests on remains found in the condition he described, he's not a scientist, he's some sort of wizard.
I understand fully the "blunt force trauma" ruling. That should be pretty straightforward due to physical evidence. But that is just a tiny fraction of the whole picture---a picture which at this point, we'll probably never see because the case has been ruled an accidental death and closed.

a reply to: VoidHawk

The problem I have with this type of thinking

This caused the gears in my my mind to lock up as well.

Sometimes a post will have three even four variables of
this type of malfunction. Then suddenly my reading
SSSLLLLOOOWWWWS to a ! As my mind drifts into
paranoid thoughts." Is this guy just ####'n with me?"

That's when I reach over and hit the PC switch, stand up
and slowly back out of the room. Then run down the hall
quickly, jump in bed and pretend I was sleeping the whole
time. So when I wake up the next day, I can tell my self,
I was just dreaming, I was having paranoid thoughts.

And it's all good until I start wondering who's talk'n
sh#t about me on ATS?

originally posted by: diggindirt
the case has been ruled an accidental death and closed.

Is that right?

Are the records of such cases available to the public? If this has been recorded as accidental death I can see no reason why details should not be available.

a reply to: VoidHawk

The records are available for a fee thru the
FOIA I think. And I have thought seriously about
it. Would've done it already. Just don't have the
funds. Hopefully in a couple months that will all
change. And I will get 'em if possible.