Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

I think Byers story is suspicious or if true these men should not have been out there.

a reply to: roadgravel
Thanks!
Are you saying campsite location?
If so... That's about 2 miles west of Sulfur Peak...and another mile+ from the Trailhead.

The reporting on this is terrible. Someone saw a topo map in the search material and matched it up. So who really knows...

a reply to: roadgravel

I'd stake next month's wages that if this is where he was camped, he's in or around that creek.

originally posted by: Starling
That's what's infuriating about this event. A severe lack of details...about EVERYTHING.
Ok, so Byers is in a delirious state of shock, but why are they still coddling him?
What is so sensitive that he can't give more details?

Starling, don't mistake. Someone has all the details. Someone has debriefed Byers and will have the firsthand account of what really went on.
All we have, thanks to the Pulitzer-grade reporting going on, is assumption.

We assume it happened in the evening. They'd been hiking and were setting up camp. I don't know why we assume this, because if I have a camp to set up I tend to do that before anything else. So it may well have happened during the day.
We assume the backpack he didn't leave wearing which was found was left by Byers in case Herdman returned.
And again, we assume Herdman chased after his dog when it ran away, despite that being a practically suicidal move.

I'd love more than anything to walk up to the SAR coordinator and hand him one of Paulides books, and maybe hint that the creek and any mountains which are outside the "expected" distance are checked over.

a reply to: JackofBlades
I posted a comment way back in the thread...relating to some of your comments on the "national forests missing persons" intrigue -- being -- doesn't this feel eerily similar to "Predator"?
From what you've described - it would almost have to be something that could swoop down from the trees, snatch someone back up into the trees...or...obviously, if considering such non-traditional possibilities, you could go to/with aliens, etc...
I am wondering if you have a developing hypothesis/suspicion... ?

ETA: The Google Earth satellite images of the immediate area surrounding the coordinates provided by roadgravel should give the search team/effort an excellent advantage...as the latest imagery was dated only a year ago (April 17, 2013).
If rock slides significant-enough to bury him out of sight had taken place in that vicinity, it should not take long to be able to identify the same... ...I would think...

originally posted by: roadgravel
Someone thinks, based on maps seen in use, this where the site was located.

This is close to where I used to live...Ojai and Santa Paula; only those were the 'civilized' towns, surrounded by a vast Sespe wilderness. All that stands out in my mind is that there is a huge amount of triangulation poles in this area: towering 'artificial trees' poking out amongst the real ones.

Which makes me also wonder...why are these two professional firefighters doing, going out into the wilderness, 15 miles into no-man's-land, without some kind of GPS, cell phones, etc?

Now I have another question: When Duke the dog appeared and was caught close to Herdman's car, parked at a trailhead, how was he found? Did investigators previously know that was his car before the dog came to it and were already inspecting it, or did the dog lead them to it by chance, then it was inspected?

Does anyone know if this parking area was where Byers emerged from 'being lost'?...(two days later!)

a reply to: Starling
Those are some good questions.
The way the current reports are written, it is hard to decipher.
As to how they found the dog... Supposedly two "good Samaritans" that were not a part of the search effort were in parking area where the vehicle "had been parked"...and saw & 'captured' Duke the Dog.
Oddly - according to KTLA the vehicle was supposedly 10-12 miles from where Herdman was last seen. That's quite a trip.

The 10-12 mile distance seems to be corroborated by the LA Times.

I don't recall if they stated that the parking area was near where Byars emerged... Just that two fishermen 'found' him, and helped him get back to civilization.

Sadly - looks like they are scaling back the search & rescue efforts.

I was just wondering why he ran after the dog in the first place. The dog was obviously not on a leash and so must be reliable and dependable enough that the owner wouldn't need to worry that much. I do not own a dog but my brothers own a few and from what I have observed from hiking with them is that their dogs sometimes like to just sprint on into the brush or through some woods at the slightest new sound or smell or just for the hell of it.

The dog ran off and Herdman instantly knew he had to go after it? What was the immediate threat that he couldn't wait to see if the dog came back? Why did he have to go without getting shoes on and why didn't he communicate a plan with his friend about how long he thought he would be? The only answer I can think of is that the dog's running off was so abnormal that Herdman felt the dog had to be chased down immediately, either he saw the dog get spooked by something or something isn't being accurately communicated to us.

If the dog made it back to the truck during the search and Herdman knew his dog well enough when he took flight, if there was no immediate danger then he should have waited out the dogs return and called out for him periodically. Even squirrel chasers eventually get bored and go find their owners after a while.

I'm still following this thread and trying to piece together something reasonable but still can not. Roadgravel, Starling and Wandash seem to be covering many pieces of the puzzle and I thank them and all contributors for keeping my mind spinning here.

a reply to: Starling

Sounds...anyone familiar with Skinwalker Ranch?

a reply to: WanDash

Apologies WanDash! I had actually typed out a reply to you, but lost it. I'm STILL unused to this new reply system. It's great for smaller posts, but for longer posts where you want to quote/reply to several people I find myself accidentally closing the wrong tab or going back on the wrong page. I actually lost the reply and then sort of sighed and went to bed.

Now, as to your original post and, I have to say, this is all my opinion. And that opinion is, unfortunately, based on shoddy reporting from the media and a lack of general information. As more facts of the story become clear (or are made up), this opinion will change.

I don't believe his friend did anything to harm him.
I don't believe he was chasing after his dog because it had run off.
I believe that whatever spooked the dog, spooked him and he was pure animal when he ran away. No conscious thought, no rational mind, just instinct.
I do NOT believe Byers started looking for Herdman immediately.
I believe Byers, like Herdman and his dog, was spooked and bolted. My reasoning for that is simply because of the reported state he was found in. He was confused, tired, and reportedly had become lost. If you were searching for someone the first thing you would do is make sure you can find your own way back.
I believe if the searchers headed up to the nearby creek, they'll probably find him.

it would almost have to be something that could swoop down from the trees, snatch someone back up into the trees

Or something that had been watching and tracking for a long time, that was patient and never hurried, that bolted in at just the right moment to take advantage of a turned back.

As to whether I have a theory or a suspicion in regards to the Missing 411 books. I have several, some mundane, some out there. I'm withholding judgement, however until I've read the latest one.
Now, lots of people say that Paulides' books are about Bigfoot taking people. They're not. He lays the facts, and leaves it at that. I say to those people maybe Bigfoot is taking them. Maybe it isn't. Maybe it's aliens, fairies, or ManBearPig. Maybe it's a big footed Alien fairy named ManBearPig.
It doesn't matter what it is that's doing it, what matters is nothing is being done by the people who are charged with public safety to determine what's happening. They don't even admit there's a problem!

Even with the release of his books, and the phenomenal effort he put into writing them, there are still billions of people who don't know, and will still journey to the Parks (something Paulides applauds. He doesn't want people to stop going, he wants them to start going smart!). If you own the books, loan them to friends, colleagues, neighbours! If you personally know police officers or sheriffs in some of the places mentioned, let them read your copies, and ask them what they, as lawmen, think about it. Tell them to pass it around to their colleagues! The more people who know about it, the more pressure will be put on the park service to start keeping the lists they say they can't make! Fifteen minutes writing on a piece of paper is all it'd take!!!!

"Name -
Age -
Last Seen -
Wearing -
Activity -
Weather -
Witnesses -
Findings -"

I've read at least 5 "latest updates on missing fireman" and I also read the comments section as I always do out of curiosity to see what other people felt/ thought about this case.

The most often commented reply to this story was"there is something odd about this story."

Now I believe that us humans are good at following our gut instincts.
I'm also one of the many who feels that something is odd about this,something doesn't add up.
How could so many people's gut instincts be wrong?
I think we are right.
Something is odd, we can feel it, deep down know it, just can't put our finger to it.

I just checked and alas no new updates yet.

a reply to: [post=18065813]Rainbowresidue[/post

here is a snippit from an article......One friend, Michael Macgregor, states that he is certain that Herdman could keep himself alive for weeks if necessary.

Read more at guardianlv.com...

another snippet... (Herdman) is highly skilled outdoorsman, so that’s why our hopes still high he’s out there,” he said.

www.contracostatimes.com...


one more snippet....He was described by colleagues as a well-trained elite athlete, www.nbclosangeles.com...

the above link is the only one I found that gives a time of the disappearance.... Herdman went missing Friday night after he and a friend arrived at their campsite -- a two-day hike from where they left Wednesday.


he was a surfer and a former professional cyclist, and an experienced sailor.

“He is definitely not an amateur, he is as prepared as many and more prepared than most,” Arcadia Fire Departmene spokeswoman Beth Stogner said. “They learn how to take care of themselves in extreme situations and certainly this would qualify as an extreme situation.”

see link below

www.sgvtribune.com...

a reply to: Rainbowresidue It is playing pretty clear in my head now. I focused on it for a while and i hope this post is bs but i see the man going over a cliff about ten miles away with some help. They were not at the campsite only and the prints are not his. Getting away with murder. There is a place not too far from there that is like a roadside park witha drop off. Something to do with a damn woman.

a reply to: research100
Thank you, I've read that one too.


To: deadeyedick

You know, I wouldn't be surprised.
It wouldn't be the first time in history two men fought over a woman.

a reply to: Rainbowresidue I do not want him to be hurt but those darned footprints are giving off a very strong vibe. Like someone really focused on that part. i do not think they belong to the lost one but to the other one. that part is very clear to me.

a reply to: JackofBlades
I agree on ‘shoddy reporting’. Makes our job so much more difficult (but – that’s why we get the big bucks !!).

You’ve taken it further than I…with the limited jumble of information available. It appears, to me, that you are leaning toward the ‘exodus from camp’ taking place at night…?

As to my ‘suggestion’ of “Predator”… I was not offering it, saying I believe… Just trying to match some of your observations to a ‘known’ entity (albeit, science-fictional).
Strong/Powerful, stealthy, leaving little to no evidence/s for tracking…etc…

Nevertheless – if You were going to be spending time in some apparently-deserted regions of a National Forest…do you think there’s anything more, than taking compass, gps, camera/s, water, to improve your odds of survival – should the ManBearPig Faerie take a personal interest…?
I will be going to such a place, this weekend.

Thanks for your thoughtful and intelligent reply to my question. Hope this line of conversation is not considered “off topic”.
WanDash

I've only read a few snippets of this story and a few radio segments on 640 AM here in SoCal. First off I've grown up hiking, camping, backpacking etc. I've been all over the US doing it. From the midwest to the west coast etc. I've camped around rivers, on mountains, in forests. I would NEVER EVER run after a stupid dog in my barefeet!!!!!!! What idiot would do that? That right there in my opinion throws all of his this "avid outdoorsman" crap out the window. If' you're quick to make a stupid mistake like that then who knows what could have happened to the guy? Rattlesnakes, rocks/boulders/cliffs etc, cougars…….take your pick…afterall it IS WILDERNESS!!!

a reply to: Witness2008

Please……you watch too much Dual Survivor. I'd bet you'd hardly survive a few hours trompsing around in your barefeet in the wilderness and over rough terrain.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

Also keep in mind 5 of the searchers have been injured and one of his fellow firefighting members was already bitten in the hand by a snakebite that required 52 vials of anti venom……..I mean come on people…..not everything is a missig 411 bigfoot alien conspiracy.

originally posted by: GreenMtnBoys
a reply to: GreenMtnBoys



Also keep in mind 5 of the searchers have been injured and one of his fellow firefighting members was already bitten in the hand by a snakebite that required 52 vials of anti venom……..I mean come on people…..not everything is a missig 411 bigfoot alien conspiracy.

Yep. You watch. I bet the missing fireman's buddy will be arrested within two weeks on suspicion of murder. They went on a long hike with the dog . He was killed in the wilderness, over a woman as alluded to by previous posters. The one guy came out, the dog found it's way back a few days later. Nothing to do with a 411 disappearance, much to the chagrin of most of these posters, who wish for a supernatural explanantion. His shoes were still there but the buddy offered him an extra pair he brought along, which might have been drier and more comfortable.