Police: Man swinging crowbar shot to death by officer

a reply to: txinfidel
Any body can kill you with anything. With the right training your bare hands can be the deadliest weapon of them all.
I get you had the bad experience, still don't see the need to state twice that you would just destroy this person by unloading, reloading and then unloading again. Sounds pretty sick to me....
And as always, personal stories do not add any credibility to anything as no one but you knows what really happened and it is absolutely natural to embellish

a reply to: Sremmos80

The way I see it. The cops saved his life. I was about to kill him, because he tried to kill me.

Shoot to main?

A leg isn't that large of target. Miss the shot, which is even harder if the person is moving, and you get a crow bar up beside the head.

I suppose one could argue that police should be using a shot gun in order to make legs shots to drop people.

a reply to: Sremmos80

You already created the hypothetical situation when you said that cops should have their lethal weapons taken away. I just used you in that scenario as having the power to take their weapons away.

Somehow you decided to take your own hypothetical situation and switch it around on me, and then use it as an argument against what is wrong with society?

Makes total sense...

a reply to: Euphem

Trust me if some one comes at you with a crowbar and you have a split second decision to show restraint you will be dead in one second.

a reply to: Euphem

So I went back and you were the one that brought up taking the lethal weapons away first.... it was after I talked about sarcastically taking away their NON lethal weapons. After that is when you asked me about what I would do if I was in charge of the bad guys.
Please quote me if I am wrong.
Bottom of page one if you need help, you bring up the hypo situation first

originally posted by: txinfidel
a reply to: Euphem

Trust me if some one comes at you with a crowbar and you have a split second decision to show restraint you will be dead in one second.

That is such bull!!! You are basically saying there is no way to survive a crow bar attack without killing the person before they get to you???
Ever heard of avoiding an attack? Jesus it is not rocket science to move out of the way.

a reply to: Sremmos80

I haven't read through this thread fully yet. But as someone who has been there and done that. You can't take away lethal weapons unless you want to live in a padded cell. Even still people in padded cells have found lethal weapons. If it wasn't a crow bar it could be a two by four or a piece of shrapnel.

If I hesitated for one second when I had that crowbar swung at me I would not be alive right now. And dead men tell no tales.

If it wasn't the first strike with the crowbar that killed me, I would have been on the ground. The second, third or fourth strike would have killed me for sure.

a reply to: Sremmos80

If I moved out of the way he would have chased me down and hit me in the back of the head. How is that a survival tactic? If I hadn't disarmed him I would be dead right now.

Edit to add: I didn't have to kill him. But I got lucky and I was about to kill him, so he got lucky too.

a reply to: Sremmos80

I apologize, I misread your original statement. Working 60 hours a week and answering threads at the same time sometimes I make mistakes.

originally posted by: txinfidel
a reply to: Sremmos80

If I moved out of the way he would have chased me down and hit me in the back of the head. How is that a survival tactic? If I hadn't disarmed him I would be dead right now.

Edit to add: I didn't have to kill him. But I got lucky and I was about to kill him, so he got lucky too.

I did not say just turn and run. I just said that is bs to that if show restraint that you will die in a second.
Moving is not running, it avoid an attack

a reply to: Sremmos80

...and Im telling you. Had I reacted differently. I would be dead.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Maybe the bigger question here is why you sympathize with people who attack other people they don't know with crow bars?

Shouldn't that be addressed?

Because that is not normal behavior and it doesn't deserve sympathy.

a reply to: txinfidel

And you were able survive without killing the person...
And again your personal story adds nothing at all. For all we know you are bsing the entire story and you can not expect me to think any different.
It sounds pretty iffy that after 10 min of vicious beatings that you would be able to disarm a man in a full swing with a crowbar midswing. I would imaging your breathing was affected by the neck wound and any one that fights will tell you breathing is key.

a reply to: Euphem

No worries, it happens

originally posted by: txinfidel
a reply to: Sremmos80

Maybe the bigger question here is why you sympathize with people who attack other people they don't know with crow bars?

Shouldn't that be addressed?

Because that is not normal behavior and it doesn't deserve sympathy.

Cause I don't think it deserves death, I will sympathize to most that lose their life when they didn't actually harm anyone. Sure he might have hurt some one, but didn't actually.
And don't bring up your story in the response to this please. We are talking about a documented event not some story on a forum

a reply to: Sremmos80

Well since you asked, the stab wound was only a couple millimeters when it punctured my larynx. I know I was stabbed with a butterfly knife and still where the scar to this day the stab would on my neck is almost an inch. In the ER the first thing I had was a cat scan. I felt fine until I woke up the next day. I could not move, not even an inch, it was too painful.
I stayed in the hospital for three days until the puncture was sealed, then I went home and rested for a week. I was fortunate because this was in the nineties and the nurses payed special attention to me and kept me company.

But since your wondering it is on record and everyone that I am close to including close friends and family knows about it. Doest matter to me wether you believe me or not, it did happen.

Just want to point out a few things.

Let's start with shooting to maim. No police force does this, and for very good reason. It's very hard to do and there are way too many risks involved. It is incredibly easy to kill someone shooting them in the leg, or arm, or shoulder. That's IF something else doesn't mess up your shot and everything lines up perfectly. A shot to the thigh can easily create a wound that will kill a person before medical help can be rendered. People don't just stand still in these situations, which makes accurate shot placement even more difficult. Otherwise police departments would be training people to take headshots instead of aiming center mass.

Shooting to maim is a no go because when someone discharges a weapon they have to be at the point where they are actually TRYING to kill someone. It's too risky otherwise. One misstep, errant shot, or unanticipated movement and that leg shot becomes lethal. This isn't a video game. Far too many people seem to think these things are like a movie. People don't shoot well under stress. A leg shot can easily become a gut shot, the leg has major arteries, and the leg is a more difficult target to hit than a torso.

Shooting someone in the leg or arm isn't a guaranteed stop to the aggression. People can be shot multiple times and still function surprisingly well before the blood loss gets them. I think we've all seen videos where someone accidentally shoots themselves and carry on pretty well. If not, I'll show you one.

LANGUAGE WARNING FOR THE VIDEO
Guy shoots himself in the leg. He's not mad or stressed when it happens. He isn't on drugs. He isn't trying to hurt anyone. Look how well he's moving. So that's a .45 to the leg.



Here is a picture of things you don't want a bullet to hit. Notice the colorful lines running EVERYWHERE?



Realize it's easy to mess up just a tiny bit at the gun range with 0 stress and 0 movement and 0 fatigue and 0 target movement and 0 distractions. Now realize that police use hollow points. The expand. They rattle around and break up when they hit flesh and bone. A gunshot wound isn't just a little hole the exact size of the bullet. The bullet doesn't always make a straight pass through and can bounce around tearing things up.

Here is a video of a .40 cal hitting ballistic gelatin. The gelatin is supposed to mimic flesh. Creates a pretty big wound channel doesn't it? Keep in mind that's straight on, set up and controlled.



Anyone who thinks a crowbar or tire iron or baseball bat isn't a lethal weapon is an idiot. People get killed from getting punched. People die falling off step stools. It is not hard to kill someone with a hard object, especially one that's long and easy to swing. Yes, a brick is very much a deadly weapon if you're going to clock someone upside the head with it.

Anyone who thinks the cops should have been able to employ some movie magic Judo nonsense is deluding themselves. Cops are NOT that well trained in hand to hand combat to begin with, and even if they were, a heavy piece of metal is going to win over flesh and bone. No doubt there are people that could disarm someone, but even those people that dedicate themselves fully and train daily won't be able to disarm someone 100% of the time. Remember, this is life or death. Not losing a boxing match.

There are multiple witnesses.

There are a myriad of ways the guy could have concealed the crowbar. There are a ton of reasons the cops would have gotten close. Perhaps because of all the witnesses, wanting to keep them safe. They didn't want him running. I don't know what the terrain was exactly, if the guy was behind a tree or bush, if there was only a finite amount of space for the two to stand.

I'm not going to automatically assume the cops are in the right. I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't have a video. Someone said cops lie. I don't think they all do, but I do agree it's certainly in the realm of possibility. There are a ton of different scenarios that could have led up to someone being shot. I dislike all of them because I don't like it when people get shot.

originally posted by: applesthateatpeople
a reply to: Xcouncil=wisdom

Cowards always shoot to kill at any type of threat.

It involves the least amount of thought.

Cowards On Patrol is becoming quite the problem lately.

Anyone with ANY level of required training can take down a nut with a crowbar without a weapons discharge.

There were two cops?

One fell down?

Cowards!!!

Now I'm certainly not a fan of the way our Police Force conducts business...but hold on just a second there, cowboy.

-First let's address the statement I have highlighted in bold.

There's a guy with a friggin crowbar swinging it at another human. This guy wasn't trying to swat a mosquito from one of the officers' lapels. This guy had bad intentions, with a deadly weapon. When someone comes at you in that manner, you have to make a split second decision. That decision is none other than the age old "Him or me", "Live or Die" scenario. This is real life. I'm going to make the bold assumption that you haven't truly had your mettle tested, but I can't hold that against you.

-Now onto the cry of "Cowards always shoot to kill at any type of threat."

I consider myself well versed in both CQC and firearms handling (both in principle and practice). I'm one of the best you'll find at keeping my composure under extreme (even life threatening) pressure. If someone is aware that I have a firearm drawn and I'm ready to fire (as the man with the crowbar was aware the police had guns and were ready to use them) and that person decides to rush me with a blunt weapon, well...that person is going to be shot at...as another poster said, until he stops swinging.

It's a shame that non-lethal measures weren't deployed initially, but I've seen with my own eyes fully sane and sober individuals fully powering through a Tazer strike. The article states the officers were attempting to disengage and create space between themselves and the man, but the man continued to attack. Also states that there were witnesses and they are being interviewed. I'm interested to see how they recall the events unfolding.

a reply to: Domo1

I know right. People shouldn't have the right to self defense so that criminals can do whatever they want.

These threads don't make sense to me, people claiming that people defending themselves is police brutality.

I don't care who you are. Judge a man buy his deeds, not by his occupation, his financial status, race or otherwise. People are just too quick to jump the gun when it comes to cops. And there are bad cops. There are, remember that.

All of them swore an oath to defend the constitution so they aren't all bad. Just remember who the bad ones are. And give all of them a fair chance.

Otherwise we might as well resort to cannablism. And those who think that anarchy is a state where they can take whatever they want and have no respect for the value of human life can have a taste of their own.