Police: Man swinging crowbar shot to death by officer

Portland has had its share of questionable/wrongful shootings - this one seems justified. Multiple witnesses, officer was on the ground, fool came after him even after multiple attempts from the cops to disengage. This is a crappy area, lots of homeless hang out in that part of the corridor and drugs are rampant and there are constant problems. There won't be a rally of public support in his defense.

originally posted by: Euphem
a reply to: shaneslaughta

I didn't attack you. If the cops are called on you because of an argument and you run away, that is just pure win on your part.

You said "You must be a real winner". I consider that a personal attack.

Its not a win, it was stupid. Still within my rights to separate myself from the issues.

a reply to: Sremmos80

You said -

As it is, cops and cartels are evenly armed. Cartels might even outgun them, what is stopping them from killing them all?

What is stopping them is that they have guns! Was that a serious question?

a reply to: shaneslaughta

So even you say it was stupid. If I do something stupid and admit it, and someone calls me on it, I don't take it personally. Common sense.

When the cops are called on you, and you run, you don't have the right to separate yourself from the situation.

C'mon man are you seriously not getting this?

originally posted by: applesthateatpeople
a reply to: Xcouncil=wisdom

Cowards always shoot to kill at any type of threat.

It involves the least amount of thought.

Cowards On Patrol is becoming quite the problem lately.

Anyone with ANY level of required training can take down a nut with a crowbar without a weapons discharge.

There were two cops?

One fell down?

Cowards!!!

For sure!
No justification for shooting this man to death at all.
Shoot to MAIM not to kill.

originally posted by: LadySkadi
This is a crappy area, lots of homeless hang out in that part of the corridor and drugs are rampant and there are constant problems. There won't be a rally of public support in his defense.

Oh phew that's ok then - he was probably homeless and on drugs, his life doesn't matter.

/sarc

a reply to: Euphem

Guns are not stopping the heads of the cartels of ordering their pawns from gunning down cops.
That was the point I was making about having cops out manned and our gunned.
And it was a much more serious question then your asking what I would do if I was in charge and what would stop me from killing all the cops.
What stops them is the force that will follow. Kill a cop and you get the full force after you.

I still don't get it, what kind of cops allow themselves to be drawn in so close to an assault suspect that he can attack them with a crowbar? This after they were already talking to him.

This happened in public and with a partner. Something is not right.

There may have been multiple witnesses that seen him engaging a cop but multiple attempts from the officers to disengage?

Well what were they doing to dispel the indecent before it escalated to lethal force?

This seem akin to two siblings, one swinging their arms around and hitting the other when the walk too close.
Then mom punishes the one who throws the punch, but the other kid shouldn't have walked into it in the first place.

Your soaked in gas and some guy threatens you with a lighter, do you run to him and take the lighter?

NO you distance yourself from the attacker in every situation. Separation is your best friend and ally.

This whole thing stinks.

a reply to: stargatetravels

Nope, his life does not matter if/when he is in the act of attacking (anyone) with a deadly weapon. At that point, it's him or you. Period.

Shoot to Maim? Or you serious?

a reply to: Sremmos80

So when you said in your initial post that they shouldn't have any lethal weapons, you really believe that would have no effect on what criminals do? Not every criminal is part of a drug cartel.

originally posted by: Euphem
a reply to: shaneslaughta

So even you say it was stupid. If I do something stupid and admit it, and someone calls me on it, I don't take it personally. Common sense.

When the cops are called on you, and you run, you don't have the right to separate yourself from the situation.

C'mon man are you seriously not getting this?

I was already separating myself when they arrived. At the exact moment i ran out the door and through the yard they rolled up on me.

And again as it was an argument not some criminal activity. Hence why they let me go after.

My story is not about me running, its about brutality and criminal behavior from our protectors.


Quit assuming you know the situation.

a reply to: LadySkadi



Oh dear.
Of course I'm serious, I dont think 'potential 'assault deserves death.
I think two armed LEO's should be able to deal with a guy with a metal stick, without it resulting in death.
I think when police shoot people they should aim for limbs and not aim to kill the assailant,unless being fired upon.
Two armed officers and one unarmed perp, nobody had to die.
But hey that's humane, I know that's not popular here.

a reply to: Xcouncil=wisdom

Only problem is we don't have video to prove the guy came at them with a crowbar. Not saying it didn't happen, but let's face it - cops have a BAD habit of lying about the actual incident.

I will just color this crowbar incident as +1 cops with a dose of healthy skepticism until any proof actually arises.

a reply to: LadySkadi

Well i don't necessarily agree. They had options. They chose to use lethal force.

We really need an eye for an eye law. Cops should only be allowed equal force, and i mean equal.

Melee to melee, taser to taser, gun to gun.

Not this ohh he has a sharp popsicle stick so lets blast away with 12 gauges kind of equalization.

Its just wrong to me. Im all for life saving and stuff, but this guy probably had issues and needed help.

Not the 45 caliber kind.

originally posted by: WCmutant
a reply to: Xcouncil=wisdom

Only problem is we don't have video to prove the guy came at them with a crowbar. Not saying it didn't happen, but let's face it - cops have a BAD habit of lying about the actual incident.

I will just color this crowbar incident as +1 cops with a dose of healthy skepticism until any proof actually arises.

Not to mention witnesses can be bought. Just like politicians.

originally posted by: Sremmos80

originally posted by: 3u40r15m
Yeah you're gonna taze somebody swinging a crowbar at you? GOODLUCK with that.... This IMO is justified.

*Too many cop threads on here this stuff happens all the time if it's
not local who cares

Don't see why him having a crowbar makes a difference on him being tazed?
Eta: read the story wrong, perp was closer then I thought. Still think a tazer would have been good.
I think it more had to do with the officer falling down. Which I guess is justified cause if they guy with crowbar got to him it would be no good

They need to have a "deadly weapon awareness week" to inform the general public about what police policy is. And that is if a confronted person has any sort of weapon in their hand, brick, iron bar, ball bat, ect....heck a pot of boiling water...these idems are considered deadly and or serious injury inducers. And so you can be shot by a cop.....or joe blow down at the corner.

a reply to: stargatetravels

I thought all LEOS had at least basic hand to hand combat skills. Surely their metal batons can be used in the same manor as the suspects crowbar? And to defend from such attack.

What is the point in all the money we spend on their gear of they only want to kill everything?

BAHH

originally posted by: Euphem
a reply to: Sremmos80

So when you said in your initial post that they shouldn't have any lethal weapons, you really believe that would have no effect on what criminals do? Not every criminal is part of a drug cartel.

Your right, not every criminal is in the cartel. Just like not every criminal would kill a cop. It takes a certain tick to be able to kill someone. Not everyone can do it with out the training and conditioning. I just used the cartel as an example to try and get your ridiculous hypo situation into a more realistic one by using an entity that actually exist and has the means to kill cops in numbers.

I can't say what the criminals would do, that is a very unpredictable bunch. But I do think that cops kill far to many people and a simple solution to thay would be to take the tool they are using out of their hands. Especially when they treat everyone that has a gun or really anything in their hand for that matter, as a cold hard killer and are allowed to do so.
I would also appreciate if we stopped with the what ifs, those don't prove or help anything in a discussion like this. I actually think it is part of the problem. The what if state of mind is what allows cops to hide behind the what if he did this or that, I only had a split second to decide mentality that gets people killed for what they might do, not for what they did

I hate police violence as much as anyone, but there are instances where it is actually justified. One of those instances is when an officer is being attacked. There is a huge difference in shooting someone with a crowbar, or even a knife, if they are standing 10 feet away and shooting that same person if they charge you or are right on top of you. I am not familiar with the particulars of this case, but if the officer was attacked then I believe he had every right to shoot the guy.

But this brings up another point that you mentioned. Would a taser have been effective? I would generally think that such a weapon would be more likely when subduing a person who cannot do a whole lot of damage. For instance, you wouldn't use a taser on a guy with a gun. Now if someone had a blunt instrument or a knife, but there was some distance between the officer and the suspect, then perhaps one could have a taser ready in case the guy charged. But if you have to reach for something extremely quickly, then I do not think it is as bad as shooting an unarmed person or something like that.

It really depends on the situation, but when the officer is truly in danger I do not mind the use of force so much. What I mind is the use of force when the suspect is not really much of a threat, ie with no weapon. Perhaps a taser should not be used on a person with no weapon, but think about the alternatives if the person is being violent. You would literally have to either beat them into submission or hopefully be stronger or more agile and take them down and secure them without them hurting anyone. It is much easier to use a taser. But again, I only believe this is justified when the person is OBVIOUSLY a threat. Too many officers use their weapons, be it a taser or a firearm, without justification. Meaning they are not in enough physical danger, or maybe in no danger at all, and thus should not have to resort to using a weapon.

There is a difference between what some cops claim is "resisting arrest" and what is truly "RESISTING" arrest. In the first instance no weapon is necessary. The person may not be absolutely compliant, but they are NOT fighting back. If they were fighting back that would be a different story. But if someone were fighting back it would not be so easy to throw or toss them around.

a reply to: Xcouncil=wisdom

Brutal police officer huh?

This topic has a very unique interest for me because I have been swung at with a crowbar. If it ever happened again and I was armed I would gladly pull the trigger on the attacker because he would have killed me. Not only would I pull the trigger, I would unload and the reload and unload again.

Long story short, I was in a street brawl with 5 other guys that nearly beat me to death, at the time I got stabbed in the throat but I didn't know it because I was curled up in the fetal position. I didn't notice because I was taking strikes on all sides of my body for five minutes. When the beating stopped I lifted my head to see if they were still there. The beating continued for another 3 minutes after that. So I just laid there and played dead. After that they went back to the other guy I was trying to defend. I got up after that and one of the guys came after me with a crowbar full swing and I managed to disarm him right before he hit me in the head and that would have killed me, and I disarmed him and at that point I would have killed him and was about to and I wasn't going to stop until he was dead. But right before I was going to take my first swing three cops showed up and I just dropped the crowbar on the ground. I thought that I might appear as the aggressor. But I hadn't realized still that I was stabbed in the neck. I did not appear as the aggressor. I was covered in blood. Moments later the paramedics arrived and started asking me questions. I asked them why they were asking questions and they stated the obvious. I looked down and I was covered in blood and realized the severe trauma that I was in.

So if it ever happened again would I pull the trigger? Yes in a heart beat. I would unload on that mother f'er till I was out of ammo. Then I would reload and unload till I was out of magazines. Theres no chance that attacker would ever walk away alive.

Thats my take.