US Charges China with Hacking

a reply to: crazyewok

I think not every story on this planet has to be turned around to make the US look equally bad or worse.

I'll leave it at that.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: crazyewok

I think not every story on this planet has to be turned around to make the US look equally bad or worse.

I'll leave it at that.

No offense to be given

But it was already turned around last year when it came out what BOTH our respective country were doing.

USA along with the UK have no grounds to stand on when it comes to hacking.

Its not just the USA, I'm pissed at my own country too. Unfortunately its just the USA that decided to make a arse of itself and go holy than tho on spying. Trust me if the UK come out and do the same in support I would want china in response to charge my own traitors in government too,

a reply to: crazyewok

No offense taken.

To be bluntly honest though.... The U.S. learned much of how to be dirty in tricks from the British intelligence services, who still likely run equal or better than we do in human if not technical prowess. China was late to the game, being held back a bit by a madman named Mao and his little red book of mayhem.

However, they've been VERY quick learners and I'd rank them near, if not equal in some critical ways, to any security service in the world right now. The United States has the most expensive and most advanced toys mankind has ever seen or even thought of attempting .....and it's broken our nation like a street junkie looking for a fix in the process. Nothing positive about that....

Nations like China have gone a different route. Iran too, for that matter. They have fostered an environment where hacking is dandy and by all means, learn and get expert at it ...as long as not a single line of code is directed back at The Party or The State. It's worked, too. China has probably developed some of the finest and most expert hackers in the world....because they've had a no-threat sandbox to learn in.

We'd have legions of them too, had ours not had to learn in the shadows, always watching for arrest.

So on hacking? The US may or may not be anywhere near the top of the mountain. Not where humans are involved. Where it's automated or AI? Yeah...The US has the crown ...but the human hackers can wreck the AI versions in ways the AI versions can't play back.

I think it makes a wash, at best, for saying any nation is superior or worse for any moral high ground.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Don't get me wrong.

Im not a fan of China and certainly think what they have done is wrong.


But its makes a huge joke and is embarrassing to watch when another country that does the same goes crying about it and trys to press charges.

If your down and dirty with the rest don't cry if you get hurt back
It wins no respect and accomplishes nothing to whine about someone using dirty tactics that one uses themselves,

Same as I never had much sympathy that the German chancellor had here phone hacked and Germany whined over that. Would not be surprised if Germany have hacked Obama's phone!

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: mikegrouchy



Exactly.

And the world would be a lot safer this day,
if Russia had not stolen our nuclear weapons tech.

If America, the country that made The Bomb, was still the only country that had The Bomb.
The Bomb is everywhere now.

HAHA Really?

Without MAD you bomb happy Yahoo's would have been dropping nukes on Korea, China, Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and likely even Russia!

I feel much safer with the fact other country's are keeping your bomb crazy tendency in check!

You misunderstand.

I am NOT American and my post was pure sarcasm.

Peace

a reply to: crazyewok

I see your point..but there is another way of looking at this, depending on one's natural lean in nationalism.

One side could say we've been headlining the Western World for a year or two in Intelligence disasters and anything but secrecy on what is supposed to be secret. Including how many secrets from other nations the US is off trying to crack open like a big egg for breakfast. The irony here is thick...in that way.

Another side could note how Snowden recently ran first and direct to Hong Kong under Chinese mainland rule and protection within their Special Administrative Zone. It was with some haughtiness that Beijing seemed to enjoy the position of twisting the screws, and screws put there by our own side at the time...as it happens. All the while, not one bit superior at all ...but hacking away in the other direction as hard as we'd been doing it to them.

The big wheel of life and geo-politics seems to carry a bit of everything...and sooner or later, it all comes around, eh?

originally posted by: crazyewok
I'm ashamed to be part of one of the 5 eyes spy country's.

Don't be. You're British! Remember!

I'm not blaming you for what the GCHQ does, just like I don't blame US citizens for the crimes of their Gov., and I hope you don't blame me - simply for being German.
All those who speak up and educate others about their Government's wrongdoings are the real patriots IMO.

Those who declare themselves obedient and accomplices to their Gov. crimes do it of their own volition - and have to live with their consciences, and deal with the consequences.


eta*:

originally posted by: crazyewok
Same as I never had much sympathy that the German chancellor had here phone hacked and Germany whined over that. Would not be surprised if Germany have hacked Obama's phone!

Just FYI:
What most Germans "whined" about was not Merkel's phone being hacked... it is the mass-surveillance of our people, and the industrial espionage against our firms that we're upset about.... and our Chancellor's passive stance.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: crazyewok

I see your point..but there is another way of looking at this, depending on one's natural lean in nationalism.

One side could say we've been headlining the Western World for a year or two in Intelligence disasters and anything but secrecy on what is supposed to be secret. Including how many secrets from other nations the US is off trying to crack open like a big egg for breakfast. The irony here is thick...in that way.

Another side could note how Snowden recently ran first and direct to Hong Kong under Chinese mainland rule and protection within their Special Administrative Zone. It was with some haughtiness that Beijing seemed to enjoy the position of twisting the screws, and screws put there by our own side at the time...as it happens. All the while, not one bit superior at all ...but hacking away in the other direction as hard as we'd been doing it to them.

The big wheel of life and geo-politics seems to carry a bit of everything...and sooner or later, it all comes around, eh?

O no doubt China are up to there necks along with Russia in the same dirty spying as the 5 eye nations.

My point is instead of crying about it and making oneself look a fool the best and only way to fight back is carrying on doing it back. spying wont ever end, one can stamp and cry all they like but the wheel will turn, so you just have to fight back. I only hope they leave the people themselves alone.

The most lying, hypocritical, the biggest in spying on the global internet (NSA) on others, the most aggresive (wars) and still standing on high moral ground in their eyes.. but no suprise though.
Also now Russia gets in a better relationship with China with this Ukraine crisis, this only helps the band grow stronger (not with the US).

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The hypocrisy of my Govt. is astounding...

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Watched this on the BBC news and the first among the chinese whom they have placed a charge against is called WANG DONG, the rest I had trouble reading about as I was laughing like a child, I do appologize to any chinese whom may be offended at that though.
The British intelligence service, the US intelligence service, the French intelligence service, Mossad and indeed most country's around the world perform state sponsored corporate espionage as after all there number one priority is safeguarding there economys' and an economic war can be often more devastating than a military action when dealing with potential threats to your own economy.
Of course in the west these day's it all depend's on which corporation or group of backers a politician is working for.

originally posted by: jude11

originally posted by: mikegrouchy

originally posted by: Nyiah
a reply to: mikegrouchy

I'm pretty sure we all get it. But do you? This crap has been going on for a very long time. Once upon a time, the Big Bad Guy who was stealing our military & big biz secrets was the USSR. Now it's China. We do it in kind, and have been for decades. Come on now.

Exactly.

And the world would be a lot safer this day,
if Russia had not stolen our nuclear weapons tech.

If America, the country that made The Bomb, was still the only country that had The Bomb.
The Bomb is everywhere now.

And China got the Tech from Russia,
gave it to North Korea,
and is still trying to give it to Iran.

Mike Grouchy

I agree the World would be very Different.

If AmeriKa was the only one to have nuclear bombs there would be a lot of Dustbowl Countries these Days.

But all in the name of humanity and Democracy of course.

Peace

I'm very sorry to say this Jude11, but your comment has walked right into the trap I laid.

If is wasn't for our refusal to _use_ nuclear weapons in conflict,
Vietnam would have turned out differently,
and
Korea would not be split by a de-militarized zone.
Let alone have atomic weapons to threaten it's southern half with.

Not to mention the subsequent 50,000 US G.I.s taken prisoner and tortured horribly.

There is "what many people want to believe" and then there is "the truth."
I am disappointed to find you in the first camp on this one.


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: crazyewok

My point is instead of crying about it and making oneself look a fool the best and only way to fight back is carrying on doing it back.

I tend to agree my furry friend, but we do have a little handicap in the US with that at the moment. Two severe breaches of security in the last few years have all but laid bare U.S. methods and tactics .... while the others haven't quite had that same handicap to deal with. I think it means we're actually reduced to things like suing another major world power for spying on a large scale instead of strictly returning it in kind.

Many have cheered the falling of American dominance in this area and to a degree, it did have to happen. It still is happening, for that matter. Still..to go too far with it, makes your solution (and the only real one) more and more unlikely to work.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

To me I think it show how royal screwed up your country and mines intelligence prioritys are.


They have spend $100 billions over the last few decades trying to be omnipotent and all knowing, targeting individual and personal privacy right down to to point were all our data is stored.

The priority is screwed up.

That resource should have been spent on what the NSA and in My country GCHQ was originally meant for, intelligence gathering and counter intelligence of major foreign threats not cracking down on its OWN people.

China it seems have had a focus. And we are suffering as a result.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

POT CALLING THE BLOODY KETTLE BLACK!

Can we charge the USA and UK with hacking please?

NSA and GCHQ is the biggest hacking organization on the planet!

I have said it over and over, look at my previous posts to see why your post is meaningless. Answer my previous question rather than posting your red herrings.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Finally, you now make the 2nd person posting who gets it.

originally posted by: jhn7537
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The hypocrisy of my Govt. is astounding...

All Governments are hypocrites. This story really is not about the US government though, it's about the Chinese Government and US businesses.

Do you want the US to lose MILLIONS of jobs (the estimate is 500k jobs a year are PERMANENTLY lost from Chinese hacking).

THAT is what this is about. This is about the Chinese government trying to put US businesses out of business, and then take their jobs.

Damn, the prices at Wal-Mart are going to hit the roof.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Watched this on the BBC news and the first among the chinese whom they have placed a charge against is called WANG DONG, the rest I had trouble reading about as I was laughing like a child, I do appologize to any chinese whom may be offended at that though.
The British intelligence service, the US intelligence service, the French intelligence service, Mossad and indeed most country's around the world perform state sponsored corporate espionage as after all there number one priority is safeguarding there economys' and an economic war can be often more devastating than a military action when dealing with potential threats to your own economy.
Of course in the west these day's it all depend's on which corporation or group of backers a politician is working for.

Yes, all countries do it. No one does it to the extent China does though, and China does not target the State, they are targeting the economy. They are targeting businesses, stealing technology, stealing jobs, and destroying economies.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: crazyewok

My point is instead of crying about it and making oneself look a fool the best and only way to fight back is carrying on doing it back.

I tend to agree my furry friend, but we do have a little handicap in the US with that at the moment. Two severe breaches of security in the last few years have all but laid bare U.S. methods and tactics .... while the others haven't quite had that same handicap to deal with. I think it means we're actually reduced to things like suing another major world power for spying on a large scale instead of strictly returning it in kind.

This is why Snowden is a traitor. His work in trying to get the Govt. spying of US citizens is commendable. However, his other work is traitorous, US spying on enemies should be expected and commended, not revealed. Snowden simply liked the limelight and was willing to hurt America and Americans to do so. Not just the Govt., millions of American citizens will pay for the things Snowden said.