Calling all spiritual atheist.

a reply to: Annee
Mine was a new and varied opinion, what d'ya think, worth replying to, or too rational?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: grainofsand

It's along the same lines as my reply on page 6, which was directed more at the source the OP posted, rather than anyone calling themselves spiritual atheists.

Then Annee said the meaning of the word "spiritual" is evolving, which seems to be true, however as Woodcarver implied if a word evolves to the point where it no longer has a clear or universally understood meaning, it loses its usefulness as a word.

Two of the words I mentioned are "mysterious" (which was mentioned in the OP's source) and "supernatural" which might apply to how spirits have tended to be viewed, such as ghosts, without any natural explanation. The OP source is trying to bridge the gap I think by making them seem the same, but they are not the same. Something which is mysterious could be the result of natural processes which we simply don't fully understand yet, such as for example, consciousness. The fact that consciousness is mysterious, doesn't make it supernatural.

By the way here is a link to a thread about a spiritual/religious 20-question quiz, and I note that none of the belief systems which result are called "spiritual atheist" so if someone thinks they are a spiritual atheist I'd suggest taking the quiz and perhaps come up with a more fitting self description:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: grainofsand

It's along the same lines as my reply on page 6, which was directed more at the source the OP posted, rather than anyone calling themselves spiritual atheists.

Then Annee said the meaning of the word "spiritual" is evolving, which seems to be true, however as Woodcarver implied if a word evolves to the point where it no longer has a clear or universally understood meaning, it loses its usefulness as a word.

I so agree!

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

Then Annee said the meaning of the word "spiritual" is evolving, which seems to be true, however as Woodcarver implied if a word evolves to the point where it no longer has a clear or universally understood meaning, it loses its usefulness as a word.

Or it enhances and expands the meaning of a word.

Perception is always interesting. It's the basis of my avatar: "Am I looking in or am I looking out"

a reply to: grainofsand

Hi, I do like your directness. I'm kinda not real fond of either/or

Briefly, I had OBEs and other experiences since first memory. I remember floating up my bedroom wall, and being only 5 concerned about bumping my head on the ceiling. But, the ceiling would disappear, then I was flying around my neighborhood, and could see my friends asleep in their bed. This happened almost every night.

Having been taught there is a god, I questioned if I was doing something wrong, but I had no control over it. Isn't it sad the first thought as a 5 year old was that I was doing something wrong and making god upset. I became religious trying to connect these experiences to god.

Over the years my search for the "right god" led me to atheism.

------------------------------

That being said, do I attribute my out of body experiences to faith? to a god?

These were real experiences. I believe there is something beyond physical partly because of them.

I know all the excuses/answers that it's part of the brain chemistry. Not buying it.

I believe energy beings without physical bodies are a part of our universe. It has nothing to do with a god.

Therefore, spiritual atheism.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: grainofsand

Hi, I do like your directness. I'm kinda not real fond of either/or

Briefly, I had OBEs and other experiences since first memory. I remember floating up my bedroom wall, and being only 5 concerned about bumping my head on the ceiling. But, the ceiling would disappear, then I was flying around my neighborhood, and could see my friends asleep in their bed. This happened almost every night.

Having been taught there is a god, I questioned if I was doing something wrong, but I had no control over it. Isn't it sad the first thought as a 5 year old was that I was doing something wrong and making god upset. I became religious trying to connect these experiences to god.

Over the years my search for the "right god" led me to atheism.

------------------------------

That being said, do I attribute my out of body experiences to faith? to a god?

These were real experiences. I believe there is something beyond physical partly because of them.

I know all the excuses/answers that it's part of the brain chemistry. Not buying it.

I believe energy beings without physical bodies are a part of our universe. It has nothing to do with a god.

Therefore, spiritual atheism.

There are tomes of real research about OBE's. Nothing of the sort has ever been observed or demonstrated in a controle setting. Oh yea there is lots of BS research that says its real but you have to be able to discern between the two. Of course, they are your experiences, so you believe them.

But how much of the real work done on this topic have you read over? Do you understand what chemicals effect the brain? The chemicals that are released while people are experiencing this feeling?

Further more there have been many tests in many labs around the world. None of them presented any evidence that the person was actually leaving their body. They couldn't tell what was in the next room, or in a box in the same room.

Lots and lots of tests.

My personal deal sealer is that no one has cashed in on it yet. If this were a real phenom someone would be on stage by now, guessing what is in the box.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I am not debating my belief. I know it is a belief. I have stated it is a belief.

I am explaining MY Spiritual Atheism.

I believe everything is energy. I believe there are energy beings (individual energy conciousness without physical form), hence "spirit". Not religious/god related.

a reply to: Woodcarver

The majority of the world believes in some type of god or religion. Where i live it is posted on every billboard, there is a church on every corner. That world view is thrown into every encounter i have with people. It is impossible for me to get through my day without encountering it somehow.

You live within a religious narrative, my friend. I can understand the difficulty of not using their words when it is the only language they speak.

In my opinion, I find that the atheist propagates the very religions he opposes by taking part in the charade. He chooses a role in that very same narrative and delightfully plays his part.

But I would agree with Annee that spirituality needs to be taken back from the grip of religion. However, I don't think spirituality has anything at all to do with ghosts and non-physical beings. I think that such an idea about spirituality—that it is about the non-physical—is the result of thousands of years of church doctrine, and spirituality is actually about vitality and wisdom. The etymology of the word "spirit" is about the breath of life, or to breathe.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: Woodcarver

 

The majority of the world believes in some type of god or religion. Where i live it is posted on every billboard, there is a church on every corner. That world view is thrown into every encounter i have with people. It is impossible for me to get through my day without encountering it somehow.

You live within a religious narrative, my friend. I can understand the difficulty of not using their words when it is the only language they speak.

In my opinion, I find that the atheist propagates the very religions he opposes by taking part in the charade. He chooses a role in that very same narrative and delightfully plays his part.

But I would agree with Annee that spirituality needs to be taken back from the grip of religion. However, I don't think spirituality has anything at all to do with ghosts and non-physical beings. I think that such an idea about spirituality—that it is about the non-physical—is the result of thousands of years of church doctrine, and spirituality is actually about vitality and wisdom. The etymology of the word "spirit" is about the breath of life, or to breathe.

I very much do live in a religious narritive.
One that i have no control over. One has to accept this to be able to live and interact within a community that has overwhelmingly accepted an idea that does not ring true or live up to the claims derived from said belief. This arguement could be used in any world view though. I could say we live in a legal narrative, or a social/cultural narritive, an oppressive/free narrative. It's the same, and you could find people who would agree with any combination of narratives. It doesn't change the way i interact with people.

To accept the label of atheist, to me is to say that "i do not agree with the claims that any deities exist." There is no evidence to justify believing. It is just a hypothesis. Not to mention any claims about the properties, abilities, attitude, or limitations of any deity.

In proper science, (yes, there is proper/improper science) observation is the first step. Without that initial step of observing the thing you are claiming to exist, you are still in the hypothesis stage. The stage where you are making predictions before you even start your observation. (That is the stage where most of the claims made here in these forums are)

If you can't get past the prediction stage, because you can't observe what your studying, then you are not conducting science. You are just presenting hypoth after hypoth after hypoth. A never ending line of what ifs.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: Woodcarver

That is because most people cannot understand what it means to be atheist. So many times folks try to stick all kinds of other qualities to the term atheist. Like "why do atheists believe in nothing?" Or "atheists can't have morals."

The term atheist only means one thing. I do not believe in god. It says nothing about what i do believe in. I really dont know of or want a one word label to sum up all of my thoughts. Neither do i want anyone else to define what i am based on their perceptions.

Most atheists would not care if you poked at the fact that we do not believe in god. I personally Welcome any discussion that stays on that topic. The problem comes when you incorrectly label me with some other attribute. Take notice the next time when you offend an atheist, what they are actually rebutting.

The idea of the unbeliever is an age old church invented belief and propaganda piece, and therefor a myth. By playing the unbeliever, or atheist or infidel, we merely fall into a church invented role that still fundamentally requires the idea of a god in order to define it, showing that atheists are never without god in the first place. There is not even a deity to not believe in, let alone one to believe in. It's never true when an atheist says "I do not believe in deities", because it's only ever the propositions of the bible and church rhetoric that they truly don't believe in. No need to evoke the idea of gods. As ecclesiastical slander terms hammered into the culture by thousands of years of church rhetoric, of course they are going to have evil connotations as it always had throughout the history of human discourse. It is up to the individual if he wants to play that role that the church has always laid out for him. It is only very recently (even the last 20 years?) that the term atheist simply means "does not believe in deities", which is a slight perversion of an idea that has been around since before Socrates. It carries historical baggage put there by the church, and you wear it. Why?

It's never true when an atheist says "I do not believe in deities"

Oh, really? So am I lying to myself, or to you?

I don't understand your distaste for labels. Would you rather we not make any effort to communicate our thoughts and opinions? Struggle to formulate a personal understanding, let alone expressing it adequately enough to be understood by the community? Or is that just not important?

a reply to: Aphorism

In my opinion, I find that the atheist propagates the very religions he opposes by taking part in the charade. He chooses a role in that very same narrative and delightfully plays his part.

How? Does a police officer propagate crime? Does a protester propagate animal abuse?

originally posted by: Aphorism


But I would agree with Annee that spirituality needs to be taken back from the grip of religion. However, I don't think spirituality has anything at all to do with ghosts and non-physical beings. I think that such an idea about spirituality—that it is about the non-physical—is the result of thousands of years of church doctrine, and spirituality is actually about vitality and wisdom. The etymology of the word "spirit" is about the breath of life, or to breathe.

You are attaching emotions to spirituality. I'm not.

What I'm saying is more like we are all plugged into the same energy source. Energy is active in both positive and negative.

Thought is creative energy. How you think (positive/negative) affects all consciousness on the wire.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Yes. Hear me out. What is it you are truly not believing but the sincerity of the bible and its commentators? The propositions of the bible is what you "lack belief" in, not a god.

In order to believe or not believe in something, it must be a proposition. To go around saying we believe in bananas is quite meaningless. We believe that they taste good, that they are nutritional, and that they are yellow. It has to be put into a proposition before we can believe or not believe. God is neither true nor false. Only what we say about is. There must be a proposition of some sort to believe or not believe. What is there to believe or not believe in this instance is not God as such, but the bible and the proposition that God exists. We don't need to pretend to "lack belief" in God, if there is no God to lack belief in.

That's why the question "Do you believe in God?" is a trick question, for one must presuppose God, like we did with the banana, before answering it.

a reply to: Annee

You are attaching emotions to spirituality. I'm not.

So?

What I'm saying is more like we are all plugged into the same energy source. Energy is active in both positive and negative.

Thought is creative energy. How you think (positive/negative) affects all consciousness on the wire.

I get it. But this is more of the same evoking of spirits that religion has always perpetuated. These assertions are completely empty of content.

originally posted by: Aphorism

I get it. But this is more of the same evoking of spirits that religion has always perpetuated. These assertions are completely empty of content.

I was very religious when I was younger, Christian to be specific. I even wanted to be a minister and devote my life to God.

Your arguments are god believer manipulative. You try to bend what I'm saying to fit -- it doesn't.

No. Religion plays no part in my atheist spirituality.

Is god/religion/belief involved when you plug a toaster into an electric socket. No.

originally posted by: Annee
That being said, do I attribute my out of body experiences to faith? to a god?

These were real experiences. I believe there is something beyond physical partly because of them.

I know all the excuses/answers that it's part of the brain chemistry. Not buying it.

I believe energy beings without physical bodies are a part of our universe. It has nothing to do with a god.

I had OBE experiences too and they were strange...sometimes I wondered what would happen if I didn't find my way back into my body before I woke up. But I'm willing to buy the brain chemistry answer even though you may not.

What I find harder to explain is something like this:

The Boy Who Lived Before

Cameron, ever since he was just a toddler, talks about another family he used to live with, called the Robertsons. Cameron knows the names of his previous family, where they lived, and can even describe the house and the landscape of his previous home on the island of Barra, some 200 miles away. But Cameron has never been there. Doctor Jim Tucker, of the University of Virginia, and Cameron's mother travel to Barra with Cameron to find the house, exactly as Cameron described.

This six-year-old boy is called Cameron Macaulay. He is not much different from other boys of his age. What differentiates him from others is that he likes to talk about his "old mum", his former family and a white house standing on the bay. But none of them is related to his current life. The place he is talking about is a place where he had never been in this life and is on the Isle of Barra, 160 miles away from where he is living now. These things make Cameron's mother feel worried.

Cameron spoke about his former parents, how his dad died, and about his brothers and sisters in the previous life. He also said that his "old mum" was the one in his previous life. Cameron believes that he has a previous life and he worries that the family in his previous life misses him. His nursery school teacher told Norma all the things Cameron was saying about the Isle of Barra and how he misses his mummy and his brothers and sisters there.

I can't explain it, so while I scored in the second lowest category on the spirituality test at beliefnet, my score did reflect that my mind is open to the possibility that mainstream science may not be able to come up with an explanation for this and similar events.

Just curious if you were inclined to take the 20 question quiz I linked to here to see if it came up with anything more descriptive than spiritual atheist?

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

I had OBE experiences too and they were strange...sometimes I wondered what would happen if I didn't find my way back into my body before I woke up. But I'm willing to buy the brain chemistry answer even though you may not.

I've had many other experiences. I just use that OBE experience because it's the most simplistic to put in words.

I actually do believe the physical brain (in this dimension) has a lot to do with how we function. The newish study of brain scans is very interesting.

I just don't accept "either/or". I'm not buying brain chemicals in my case --- as there is much more then what I've posted. But, I don't rule it out in all cases.

I do find reincarnation and past life interesting. Again, "either/or". As I do believe in non-physical consciousness that can choose multiple physical experiences -- it seems quite plausible. But, there is also memory cells past down through generations.

a reply to: Aphorism

Yes. Hear me out. What is it you are truly not believing but the sincerity of the bible and its commentators? The propositions of the bible is what you "lack belief" in, not a god.

All of the above.

In order to believe or not believe in something, it must be a proposition. To go around saying we believe in bananas is quite meaningless. We believe that they taste good, that they are nutritional, and that they are yellow. It has to be put into a proposition before we can believe or not believe. God is neither true nor false. Only what we say about is. There must be a proposition of some sort to believe or not believe. What is there to believe or not believe in this instance is not God as such, but the bible and the proposition that God exists. We don't need to pretend to "lack belief" in God, if there is no God to lack belief in.

Atheist, for my part, does not just mean "belief that there are no deities". It means that deities are irrelevant to my value system, my virtues, my life style and my self-esteem. Atheist means, to me, "without god". Whether the universe is literally godless, or I simply don't recognize any gods that might hypothetically exist, it doesn't matter. I am an atheist because I do not rely on, nor want, any gods to control my life.

That's why the question "Do you believe in God?" is a trick question, for one must presuppose God, like we did with the banana, before answering it.

It sounds like you're saying that God has to exist to disbelieve in him. That is incorrect. Allow me to introduce the Ufrack, a cuddly beast that appears to be related to the Woola beast in the John Carter film, but more toad-like and covered in purple fur with grey spots. To my knowledge, such a beast does not exist. However, the concept exists. And the more people who invest in such a concept and insist that they have seen evidence of it, the more reason there is for people who have conducted investigations and come up dry to come forward and present their findings. Otherwise, we would just assume that this Ufrack creature exists, without having the first bit of concrete proof. It would become an urban legend as easily accepted as sprites used to be - and in some parts of the world, still are.

At that point, the presence of a new idea creates a line. Those who like it, and those who do not. Those who care, and those who do not. Those who have experienced it, those who have not. Those who invest in its study, and those who do not. Ideas create lines, and it seems to me that you are questioning that line. God creates a line, between those who believe and those who do not believe. And as with all animal behavior, we use that in order to lump ourselves into likeminded groups, for security...and other things. It's not right, and it's not wrong. It simply is, and has been for millenia. The more ideas we have, the more lines we draw, the more involved the network gets, and the more we understand who we are.

If you don't get that, I am absolutely baffled as to how you are able to debate your position at all, because you ought to be baffled by the point of debating.

a reply to: Annee

I was very religious when I was younger, Christian to be specific. I even wanted to be a minister and devote my life to God.

Your arguments are god believer manipulative. You try to bend what I'm saying to fit -- it doesn't.

No. Religion plays no part in my atheist spirituality.

Yet religion played such a huge part in your life by your own recognition. How can your own experiences have no bearing on your life and spirituality? Sounds like an aversion to one's own history to me, something spirituality does not require.

Spirituality is spirituality, whether atheist or theist. No need to divide it into further factions.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: Annee

I was very religious when I was younger, Christian to be specific. I even wanted to be a minister and devote my life to God.

Your arguments are god believer manipulative. You try to bend what I'm saying to fit -- it doesn't.

No. Religion plays no part in my atheist spirituality.

Yet religion played such a huge part in your life by your own recognition.

NO. I was assimilated into god belief. God is taught.

Spirituality is spirituality, whether atheist or theist. No need to divide it into further factions.

Is god/religion/belief involved when you plug a toaster into an electric socket? No.