Calling all spiritual atheist.

a reply to: Aphorism

All your saying is that you don't believe in atheists. Ive heard that argument before. Which goes to show that you wouldn't recognize evidence when it could actually slap you in the face. (No threat intended i just couldn't pass up using that euphemism)

Matter is the substance of all physical objects. Matter exists in four states: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Energy is the ability to do work. Einstein theorized that matter can be converted to energy and energy can be transformed into matter.

Examples of energy (non-matter) include light, heat, electricity, and mechanical energy such as movement.

www.ask.com...

originally posted by: Woodcarver
There is nothing about the human body that is immaterial. Consciousness is the product of a mind. There are no examples of consciousness without a brain or at least a nervous system.

Prove it. And don't try to turn this around on me. You are stating this as fact. I am clearly speaking of what I believe.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow. www.imdb.com...

a reply to: Annee

Have you ever met a consciousness that didn't possess a physical vessel?

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Annee

Have you ever met a consciousness that didn't possess a physical vessel?

Really?

How do you know all your thoughts, intuitions, etc are all your own? You don't.

But, it is what you've been taught -- by physical man.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Woodcarver
There is nothing about the human body that is immaterial. Consciousness is the product of a mind. There are no examples of consciousness without a brain or at least a nervous system.

Prove it. And don't try to turn this around on me. You are stating this as fact. I am clearly speaking of what I believe.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow. www.imdb.com...

I really don't mean to pick on you but these are the facts. When have you ever encountered a mind without a body? Even ghosts have never been proven to exist.

It is a very simple statement. There is no mind without a brain. It has never been demonstrated otherwise. To say that you believe in them is to say that you believe in something that is unsubstantiated with proof. Why would you accept something is there when it cant be demonstrated as being there? Your saying that this thing is there but one of it's properties is that it is not there.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Annee

Have you ever met a consciousness that didn't possess a physical vessel?

Really?

How do you know all your thoughts, intuitions, etc are all your own? You don't.

But, it is what you've been taught -- by physical man.

I've never had a reason to believe otherwise. And you have no reason to suggest otherwise, outside of pure speculation.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Woodcarver
There is nothing about the human body that is immaterial. Consciousness is the product of a mind. There are no examples of consciousness without a brain or at least a nervous system.

Prove it. And don't try to turn this around on me. You are stating this as fact. I am clearly speaking of what I believe.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow. www.imdb.com...

I really don't mean to pick on you but these are the facts. When have you ever encountered a mind without a body? Even ghosts have never been proven to exist.

And what are facts based on?

KNOWN knowledge that can be repeated in testing.

a reply to: Woodcarver

All your saying is that you don't believe in atheists. Ive heard that argument before. Which goes to show that you wouldn't recognize evidence when it could actually slap you in the face. (No threat intended i just couldn't pass up using that euphemism)

Well yes I don't believe in the idea of an unbeliever. That would require me believing in the tales of the Bible or the Quran.

But you didn't answer my question. Why would you take ecclesiastical terms and ideas and take them upon yourself and wear them proudly? The only context you could ever use them is in the context of theological discussions, which, according to any atheist, is the discussion of nothing.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Annee

Have you ever met a consciousness that didn't possess a physical vessel?

Really?

How do you know all your thoughts, intuitions, etc are all your own? You don't.

But, it is what you've been taught -- by physical man.

I've never had a reason to believe otherwise. And you have no reason to suggest otherwise, outside of pure speculation.

Have I not clearly stated from my first post in this thread it's what I believe?

I can suggest anything I want. I am not asking anyone to accept it or agree with it.

I have had OBEs and other experiences since first memory, but that is not the subject of this thread. I've gone into it on other threads. I am not going to go into it here.

a reply to: Annee

Prove it. And don't try to turn this around on me. You are stating this as fact. I am clearly speaking of what I believe.

On what logic do you rely on that states that material things can contain immaterial substances?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Annee

Have you ever met a consciousness that didn't possess a physical vessel?

Really?

How do you know all your thoughts, intuitions, etc are all your own? You don't.

But, it is what you've been taught -- by physical man.

Are you implying there is an outside force manipulating the human race? Or the universe?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

Are you implying there is an outside force manipulating the human race? Or the universe?

Perhaps you should re-read my earlier posts.

Outside? Outside of what?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Annee

Have you ever met a consciousness that didn't possess a physical vessel?

Really?

How do you know all your thoughts, intuitions, etc are all your own? You don't.

But, it is what you've been taught -- by physical man.

I've never had a reason to believe otherwise. And you have no reason to suggest otherwise, outside of pure speculation.

Have I not clearly stated from my first post in this thread it's what I believe?

I can suggest anything I want. I am not asking anyone to accept it or agree with it.

I have had OBEs and other experiences since first memory, but that is not the subject of this thread. I've gone into it on other threads. I am not going to go into it here.

Then what's the point of questioning my psychological integrity?

a reply to: Annee

Well i do apologise Annee if i seem to be attacking you. I assure you i am not. I have no animosity in me at all. Every one is free to believe as they wish. I only took notice of your posts and pointed out some inconsistencies with common knowledge. I notice a lot of posting going on which shows that most people do not have even a basic understanding of what science is much less what it actually says about how the world around us works. There is a deep mistrust of science in these forums and a lot of this leads to some really odd belief systems.

There is a vast amount of scientific knowledge available to everyone here. Regardless of who or where you are. If you have access to the internet then you have access to real scientific forums. If you dont believe something a scientist claims, then you can look that point up and test it yourself. There is no excuse for some of the odder claims that i see tossed around and argued to the point of anger.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Woodcarver

Are you implying there is an outside force manipulating the human race? Or the universe?

Perhaps you should re-read my earlier posts.

Outside? Outside of what?

external forces working on your mind from outside of your mind.
Your asking how i know that all my thoughts are mine? Because i dont have any reason to think there is an outside force manipulating my thoughts. Except environmental stimuli reacting with internal sensors causing predictable chemical reactions. Not an immaterial signal from a deity (i know you said you dont believe in those) or from the universe. Maybe a material signal as we know of lots of material signals that can interact with the body in some way. But nothing has ever been demonstrated to be immaterial. And by definition immaterial things have only ever been presented as things that we know don't exist.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Woodcarver
There is nothing about the human body that is immaterial. Consciousness is the product of a mind. There are no examples of consciousness without a brain or at least a nervous system.

Prove it. And don't try to turn this around on me. You are stating this as fact. I am clearly speaking of what I believe.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow. www.imdb.com...

I really don't mean to pick on you but these are the facts. When have you ever encountered a mind without a body? Even ghosts have never been proven to exist.

And what are facts based on?

KNOWN knowledge that can be repeated in testing.

Yea thats right. Is there another way to come to knowledge? The properties of the universe are not intuitive at all. It takes great discipline in study and experimentation. You can not just think your way through this work. It has taken thousands of years and 100,000's of papers to get to where we are now. Im sorry that doesn't impress you but it really should.

Ooh this is an interesting thread, classic off-topic drift coupled with an OP who wants to walk away and have it closed by the mods.
If I can get this reply in quickly enough I will say that a person who doesn't believe in gods usually reaches that stance due to the lack of evidence to support the god claims.
Personally I do not believe in any gods due to the lack of any evidence aside from multiple translated books written by unverifiable authors many years ago which cannot be considered as evidence. I do not believe in a 'soul', ghosts, pixies, karma, indigo children, fairies, boogymen, and everything in between - again, due to the complete lack of evidence to support such claims.

If one does not believe in gods due to a critical thinking evidence based mind then I would be surprised to see such a person suddenly making the case for some other unverifiable faith based position such as karma and souls.
'Spirituality' is just as faith based as claims of gods so a 'spiritual atheist' seems a bit hypocritical and oxymoronish to me. Just my thoughts.

...deny gods, but claim souls and spirits? Really?
Both as equally unverifiable as each other, both require faith. Faith being something you believe without any evidence of course.

FYI: I'm not offended, or feel picked on, but thank you for your consideration.

I take care of my Aspergers 6 year old grandson. Just busy, not ignoring.

I think some more varied opinions would add to the discussion. I hope others join the conversation.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: Woodcarver

All your saying is that you don't believe in atheists. Ive heard that argument before. Which goes to show that you wouldn't recognize evidence when it could actually slap you in the face. (No threat intended i just couldn't pass up using that euphemism)

Well yes I don't believe in the idea of an unbeliever. That would require me believing in the tales of the Bible or the Quran.

But you didn't answer my question. Why would you take ecclesiastical terms and ideas and take them upon yourself and wear them proudly? The only context you could ever use them is in the context of theological discussions, which, according to any atheist, is the discussion of nothing.

Well i guess thats because things and ideas have names. The majority of the world believes in some type of god or religion. Where i live it is posted on every billboard, there is a church on every corner. That world view is thrown into every encounter i have with people. It is impossible for me to get through my day without encountering it somehow. And it is impossible to ignore or pretend like it isn't an actual problem in society. The term atheist exists because of the overwhelmingly popular worldview that theism, in any of it's thousands of incarnations, is a viable concept. I would rather just say "i don't believe in god" but then i just get the predictable reply "oh, so your an atheist?" To which to be honest, i have to agree with. Now this label, just like all the others, comes with a lot of baggage. But im not responsible for peoples misconceptions. So when i get the all to common response of " oh, so your a satan worshiper?" Or "oh, so you don't believe in anything?". All i can do is correct their ignorance. Because it is ignorance, that leads people to do and say stupid things.

I am actually a classically trained materials scientist. I study the elements, and what they are composed of and how they react to each other and other stimuli. Im not a professor, i actually work in the field. Ignorance can get you killed in my work so it is important to be diligent in your research. There is no room for beliefs or speculation. If i constantly used my feelings to make decisions about my work, i would not be good at my job and someone could get hurt. Nobody goes through university to come to the conclusion that science is wrong about anything. Only certain ideas are wrong or more commonly science wasn't properly applied.