The "One who does not believe in gods = Communist" conspiracy?

a reply to: grainofsand

I do see the benefits in communism, and I stand by my opinion that the biggest reason communism has failed in history is because it was operated/managed/exploited by capitalists. Communism would have worked marvelously if its operators had been willing to play by exactly the same rules as the average citizen, but I think that might have defeated the whole point of instating communism. For those capitalists, anyway.

With that said, my appreciation of certain mechanics in communism has nothing to do with my atheism. Full stop.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: NthOther
Ah, interesting, you are narrowing down the commie/atheist label to "militant atheists" after realising that not all people who do not believe in gods are commies.
Again though, a tragic generalisation which is pretty much unsubstantiated and no more than a personal assertion.

I was never arguing that communism and atheism have an inseparable association.

But I can't help but notice there's a consistent pattern. And yes, that is based solely on my personal experiences with other people.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

hopefully you and him/her can have a good debate about your differing views.

Just out of interest, do you think that believers in god are predisposed to a particular government ideology?

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: grainofsand

my appreciation of certain mechanics in communism has nothing to do with my atheism. Full stop.

See, You know that, and I get it, but it really is shocking how many raging theists will believe that your lack of faith in gods must be the cause. Lets see if you get flamed for it lol

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

Are you seriously saying that atheists are going door-to-door with copies of their latest newsheets about the non-existence of god? Are there atheist TV stations where non-preachers beg for money? Are there non-churches being built? No, of course not, don't be ridiculous. I wish that atheists were 'everywhere', because then we might have fewer cases of hatred and bigotry based upon whichever book of myths is being used in that area.

I never said anything like that at all.

There's nothing offensive about people knocking on your door... unless they start yelling at you and telling you you're going to hell if you don't answer it.

There are militant Christians too, and they're not excusable either.

originally posted by: rottensociety
a reply to: grainofsand

I don't think it has anything to do with belief in God.

Christianity and most religions support "Individualism" as in, every individual has the right to live.

I guess "individualism" must
Be the new buzz word for herd mentality because religion is about conformity not individualism.

Marxist Communists support "Collectivism" which means you are useless if you are a burden to the rest of society. Therefore old people, disabled people and "surplus people" ie people who don't have a job anymore because of new technology, should be eliminated from the population of healthy workers.

Care to provide a citation showing how any communist countries practice eugenics on the elderly and infirm? Because otherwise it's just you ranting and not a fact.

People who do not support Christianity, ie atheists, are very easily led into a Marxist-Collectivist way of thinking by the media because they have nothing to remind them to be individualistic and they start believing in the web of lies that the Marxists are spinning and forget that in a few years time, they themselves, will be old and "surplus to requirement". Christianity is a reminder every Sunday to be civilised and nice to each other.

You dont have to be an atheist to be in a position of not supporting Christianity. And again, your being either terribly naive or blatantly ignorant if you really think that Christianity teaches individualism and atheists seek to remove that facet from their lives. It really is a ludicrous thought process. I really live how you rationalize Christians going to church every Sunday in a show of collectivism as being individualistic. It would be hilarious if you were aware of the dichotomous hypocrisy of the entire way if thinking involved here.

Therefore most atheists support Marxist Collectivism without even realising it and they have been encouraged to openly criticise and hate the Church because they read biased newspaper reports about the planted paedophiles, etc.

Oh I get it, it's a vast atheistic conspiracy involving fake pedophiles in the church. That must be why the current pope has defrocked hundreds of clergy in his shirt time in power. Everyone who's got on the witness stand and given testimony regarding the abuse they endured must be lying simply To further some sick atheist agenda I guess.

So yes, most atheists are supporting Marxism without even knowing they are.

No. We know what we do and do not support.

Incidentally, I have a question for you: since the decline of Christianity in recent years, do you think the children of today are civilised and nice to each other? Do you read many comments from nice, civilised teenagers on the internet?? Because I don't. I work with children and over the years I have seen their mentality change for the worse. I can see with my own eyes that more and more of them are not civilised, not respectful and they have a great sense of self-entitlement - which is the exact reverse of what Christianity teaches.

I find that the cast majority of Christians are doing and espousing things that are contrary to church doctrine. Just for the record, being religious doesn't mean you have cornered the market on morality. I know far more individuals who manage to exude excellent morals and limit their hypocrisy who have no faith that those of faith that I know.

I'm glad that you can be so infallible without Christianity, unfortunately most people are not and can't do without some kind of moral code to stop them slipping back into barbarism. Like I said, it's not about believing in a god, it's about having a good mentality towards other people and being "civilised" and atheism does not guarantee that at all.

You simply don't get it or simply don't want to. You can have no faith in a higher power,god whatever you want to call it and still be a kind, compassionate good and caring person. You DO NOT NEED GOD to be a good person. You really don't know anything about atheism or atheists and that's sad to me that you would rather slander us than learn the truth.

a reply to: DAZ21
If you were asking me, then no, I think the attachment of belief, or not in gods to political ideology is ridiculous.
Of course there are religious political parties such as the likes of the Muslim Brotherhood, or German Christian Democrats, but generally no.

a reply to: grainofsand

Jesse Ventura is a perfect example. He is far from "communist" yet he is 100% atheist.

I think the reason there are many socialist-thinking atheists is because unregulated capitalism has been paraded around and stamped into our consciousness as Jesus's economic guidelines. Many connect "God" and capitalism together yet couldn't explain why they feel that way. It's conditioning.

originally posted by: amfirst1
They do believe in God. Their god is the state.

That's why they are trying to replace the family with the state, with handouts as if the state is the parents taking care of the kids.

That's why feminism is trying to destroy the family and say that a women should not need a man, but the state.

Government is their god so they can force people to do want the government wants. THerefore, God must be destroy and replace by the feds.

Belief in ISMS, ie state and god, usually goes hand in hand with those firmly in the box.

ISMS, political isms, theology isms, economic isms.

Its not like those seeing through isms firmly adopt another. That is just one more ism.

I don't like isms, they're shackles for the brain.

Oh and this isn't against belief in the Highest Love and Goodness in existence, just that any definitions of that as one being in one or another religion isn't essential to graduating off the war planet and starvation planet, and slavery planet, and control others planet, its overcoming those things that is.

a reply to: Cuervo
That's an interesting perspective, I've never thought of unregulated capitalism as something pushed as a Christian ideal, even living in the UK where the Anglican church is legally established into the state.
I've always thought of it the other way round, having stopped believing in any gods as a child, with no 'higher power' in my thoughts it's always been 'up to me' to sort whatever I want/need in life.
My 'up to me' attitude has been more important than any ideas of assistance from government or gods, and I would imagine people who pray to/depend/rely on an invisible entity would be less likely to have a similar 'up to me' attitude.
Why pray if doing something for myself, it would indicate a lack of belief in my capabilities.
Same for wanting government to do everything for people, not my thing, but nothing to do with my belief (or lack thereof) in gods.

a reply to: Unity_99
So, do you agree that a lack of belief in gods does not in itself equate to socialist/communist ideology in the non-believer?

I've never seen the assertion you are making although I do often see the fact that some of the biggest communist regimes of the last two centuries have been decidedly atheist in character by decision of the leadership. The reason for this is that they need the state to occupy the supreme devotion of the people and church competes for that, so they tend oppress religion or make sure that religion properly glorifies the state.

That does not mean that all atheists are communists.

In fact, there is quite a large religious movement that is decidedly communist/socialist in character. Just go look up liberation theology in any of its forms. It's an attempt to marry the philosophy of Marxism to the teachings of Christ. Anytime someone tells you that Jesus was a socialist, it's liberation theology they are preaching from.

Similarly, that does not mean that all Christians are communists.

But what I do think it shows is that there is a large and coordinated movement to push people of all ideologies and beliefs toward a global communist or socialist world order. Stop blaming the other guy and look at who is pushing you to think these systems are really in your best interest and you'll have your answer as to who you should be angry at.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Cuervo
That's an interesting perspective, I've never thought of unregulated capitalism as something pushed as a Christian ideal, even living in the UK where the Anglican church is legally established into the state.
I've always thought of it the other way round, having stopped believing in any gods as a child, with no 'higher power' in my thoughts it's always been 'up to me' to sort whatever I want/need in life.
My 'up to me' attitude has been more important than any ideas of assistance from government or gods, and I would imagine people who pray to/depend/rely on an invisible entity would be less likely to have a similar 'up to me' attitude.
Why pray if doing something for myself, it would indicate a lack of belief in my capabilities.
Same for wanting government to do everything for people, not my thing, but nothing to do with my belief (or lack thereof) in gods.

Exactly! That's why it's so obviously manipulated. It's a way to keep the populace believing principles that are counter-intuitive to their true feelings. Both left and right politics have pandered to the religious sides that wouldn't normally correspond with them in order to keep a split. Which is why, even though Jesus said "turn the other cheek", many Christians are pro-war and heavily advocate gun proliferation and deny ideas of socialism that would totally jive with their religion if they actually considered it.

There's no logical way that the way people are split up like they are just by natural social evolution. It was definitely intentional manipulation and planning to get things how they are with the left/right religious/secular crowds.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: grainofsand

I do see the benefits in communism, and I stand by my opinion that the biggest reason communism has failed in history is because it was operated/managed/exploited by capitalists. Communism would have worked marvelously if its operators had been willing to play by exactly the same rules as the average citizen, but I think that might have defeated the whole point of instating communism. For those capitalists, anyway.

With that said, my appreciation of certain mechanics in communism has nothing to do with my atheism. Full stop.

Ah, the old "it would have worked if we'd just found the right people to run it" argument.

The problem with communism is human nature or just nature in general. We are programmed to compete by our biology. Communism attempts to stamp out that drive to compete and better ourselves. It attempts to make us all worker drones and slaves to the system. You can point out that it works beautifully for ants, bees and other social insects, but even they compete against one another in their colonies.

This is why communist regimes often stamp out or severely repress religion in favor of state worship or jingoistic nationalism. They are attempting to create that extreme devotion so that the people strive for the state and the state alone with an almost fanatically religious fervor rather than trying to strive and better their own lot. It never works.

originally posted by: ketsuko
But what I do think it shows is that there is a large and coordinated movement to push people of all ideologies and beliefs toward a global communist or socialist world order. Stop blaming the other guy and look at who is pushing you to think these systems are really in your best interest and you'll have your answer as to who you should be angry at.

Agreement with most of your post, just curious about this bit.
I'm not angry with anyone, just wanted to start a discussion to make people who link communist-atheist look a bit silly.
I understand you may not have seen such claims yourself but I have many times over the years on ATS and some lame assertions in a different thread today inspired this topic.

In consideration of the OP though, you speak of a large and coordinated movement chasing a communist/socialist world order?
Pray tell, do you think these people are theists, atheists, deists, mixture of all sorts, or something else darker and more sinister?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Cuervo
That's an interesting perspective, I've never thought of unregulated capitalism as something pushed as a Christian ideal, even living in the UK where the Anglican church is legally established into the state.
I've always thought of it the other way round, having stopped believing in any gods as a child, with no 'higher power' in my thoughts it's always been 'up to me' to sort whatever I want/need in life.
My 'up to me' attitude has been more important than any ideas of assistance from government or gods, and I would imagine people who pray to/depend/rely on an invisible entity would be less likely to have a similar 'up to me' attitude.
Why pray if doing something for myself, it would indicate a lack of belief in my capabilities.
Same for wanting government to do everything for people, not my thing, but nothing to do with my belief (or lack thereof) in gods.

It's not so much that as a Christian ideal as it is liberty and your choice.

Christianity is not concerned with the larger systems of the state, or it shouldn't be. It is concerned with you and how you live your life. If you lived your life according to the principles of the Golden Rule, do not lie, cheat, steal, why would it be bad if you were a capitalist? If you were charitable and helped others as you could, why would it be bad if you had wealth through wise dealings in business?

When you take the power of the state to compel people, it as much stealing as if you broke in a personally committed theft yourself. And charity through the theft from another is not charity, as you did not make any sacrifice of your own to do it; instead, you are merely attempting to absolve yourself of the responsibility of being charitable.

Remember, at it's base, capitalism is a free exchange of goods and services between people who consent to that exchange.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: ketsuko
But what I do think it shows is that there is a large and coordinated movement to push people of all ideologies and beliefs toward a global communist or socialist world order. Stop blaming the other guy and look at who is pushing you to think these systems are really in your best interest and you'll have your answer as to who you should be angry at.

Agreement with most of your post, just curious about this bit.
I'm not angry with anyone, just wanted to start a discussion to make people who link communist-atheist look a bit silly.
I understand you may not have seen such claims yourself but I have many times over the years on ATS and some lame assertions in a different thread today inspired this topic.

In consideration of the OP though, you speak of a large and coordinated movement chasing a communist/socialist world order?
Pray tell, do you think these people are theists, atheists, deists, mixture of all sorts, or something else darker and more sinister?

I think you need to look at who gets to speak out in so-called subversive ways and who doesn't.

Russell Brand gets to talk all he wants about revolution, but he wants a socialist new world order of some kind to spring up in its place.

People who talk about merely restoring the principles of liberty as they were in the original COTUS? They are branded potential domestic terrorists.

The TEA Party rallied to restore the COTUS and bring back limited government, personal responsibility, fiscal responsibility, term limits ... They are vilified and called racist, bigoted, homophobe and every other name in the book.

Occupy steps forward wanting to crash the system for more government control, socialism, living wage, and they are held up as paragons of speaking truth to power.

It's a pattern repeated all over. Watch who the villains tend to be and who the heroes tend to be in mass media storylines. Watch what they teach the kids. Go and see what they preach from the pulpit on Sundays. The infiltration and indoctrination is all over and thorough. You're set up to distrust the idea of life without government guiding you from the moment you're born, and you're set up to think that socialism sounds great if we can only find the right people to run it, and those people are the very elite technocrats - the ones who have most of the wealth and will get to keep it as they will stay in power in the new socialist/communist system.

a reply to: ketsuko

The problem with communism is human nature or just nature in general. We are programmed to compete by our biology. Communism attempts to stamp out that drive to compete and better ourselves.

Yes! It eliminates the need for competition, because one of the behaviors that makes us unique as human beings is our inclination to sacrifice competition for progress. Instead of forcing several individuals to pit their skills against one another with the end result being a single victor and a bunch of beaten dogs who no longer want to play the game or have forgotten what the prize was and just wanna throw down with the guy who beat them, we throw our talents into one pool so that everyone comes out a winner.

This is why communist regimes often stamp out or severely repress religion in favor of state worship or jingoistic nationalism. They are attempting to create that extreme devotion so that the people strive for the state and the state alone with an almost fanatically religious fervor rather than trying to strive and better their own lot. It never works.

They have done something like that in the past, yes. But I would attribute that to the leaders of each citeable case, rather than as a principle of communism in general.

a reply to: ketsuko
Interesting thoughts but it all boils down to free thinking of the individual and how easily they are indoctrinated into any ideology.
It is positive to note that the general feeling so far in this thread is that belief (or lack thereof) in gods does not automatically equate support for any particular political ideology.

Christianity is the most atheistic of religions. With the crucification of Christ we see the metaphorical removal and exit of God from the real world—we are granted freedom from our sins, free will, and choice of beliefs, with no divine intervention involved in determining our own becoming. In other words, we can, on our own volition, determine the outcome of humanity without the need for the supernatural. But the state in communism is no different than the God in Christianity, the idea that there is this governing agency determining the outcome of human affairs. If we were to be atheistic about communism, we'd find that there is still no governing agency, neither state nor god, and it is still just humans developing necessary illusions meant to keep the populace in check.