Young Men Lacking Virility and Drive?

a reply to: Gallowglaich

I am not suggesting that the folk of whom you speak, are actually aware of what drives their actions, merely that the same cloud hangs over all things at this time, and to a degree which produces certain attitudes, both with, and without awareness of the source on the part of people who hold those attitudes.

originally posted by: Gallowglaich

originally posted by: woodwardjnr

It seems that so many young men these days have mostly resigned themselves to just indulging in the latest hedonistic trends: partying, drug-use, promiscuity, listening to banal pop music, lacking any true conviction, and preferring to live their lives in pursuit of selfish pleasures. I see a lack of real ambition, I see fear of committing to a greater cause.

Right, people said that about Mods and rockers fighting on Brighton beach in the 60s, hippies at Woodstock getting free love in the 60's, punks wearing outrageous anti establishment clothing in the 1970s, Ravers in the 80s and 90's dancing to Acid House music. All youth culture gets attacked by the older generation. You've just joined a long list of moaning old farts. Congratulations.

At least punks were tough fighters, fearsome and respected in their own way. Men today are pathetic little children, sissies and cowards that can barely stand on their own two feet, let alone really be worthy of being called a man at all.

I bet most of you here have never even been in a real fist-fight before. The degeneracy and effeminate behavior of males today is sickening. Men were born to be providers, warriors, and role-models, not Justin Bieber and Screamo fans who whine about their emotional problems and treat girls like friends and equals, rather than female counterparts.

Because obviously the mark of a real man involves going out and beating other men, in a Darwinian survival of the fittest scenario?

And of course, yes, our society is in decline because there's not enough real men duking it out in the street.

originally posted by: Gallowglaich
It seems that so many young men these days have mostly resigned themselves to just indulging in the latest hedonistic trends: partying, drug-use, promiscuity, listening to banal pop music, lacking any true conviction, and preferring to live their lives in pursuit of selfish pleasures. I see a lack of real ambition, I see fear of committing to a greater cause.

The things you see, such as men with a lack of real ambition, and fear of committing to a greater cause - may be blurring your vision to see the other young men who have the drive and capacity to dream and achieve. But, is it possible to tell them apart? The young man arriving at work on time everyday maybe the old man on the street at 45 years old. The risk taking music listening party animal today maybe tomorrows Richard Branson.

There maybe young men you are seeing that are lacking the qualities you name, that do have dreams and strong wills - ambition and determination, but can't realize them because they don't know or understand the process of how the achieve them - yet, and how to achieve them with some form of pride and itegrity. Their time will come. Some will heed the call and jump to the opportunities presented to them (if they recognize them), and others will miss the boat completely until it comes around again.
Some just cant do it, (they already are defeated) and they wont.
But, there is always hope.

Education teaches children what to know, but rarely shows them practically how to use the knowledge they have gained and apply to the world outside the family home or the classroom to achieve and obtain what they want in life when the times comes that society demand their involvement and contribution. Much of that experience comes later - learnt by repeated successions of success and failure - in jobs, relationships and personal self management.

Influence from society, family and peers, set them up with expectations of how it will be - what kind of rewards they will accumulate - and how it should play out. But, unless there is a support system or a greater positive influence acting for or on behalf of that person, internally and externally - they will get lost along that road to success. The detour can lead them down the rocky path of no return, or to a dead end where they don't know how to get out of loop, to crossroads where choices have to made - hopefully good ones... it will be rare for them to find themselves flying down on the Freeway to success without a bump.

I see stagnation and decay, and I hope something will come along and shock us into action. Because right now, for me, this state of America, of the Western world.... It's hell, and it's blasphemous. Humanity is becoming sick and debased, Western society is decaying and festering right before our eyes.

I think there have been enough shocks to get people to action.
More shocks could also create more re-action - in some cases further apathy and a sense of hopelessness and depression.
More shocks are about as effective as more laws - especially when there are already laws (and shocks) to effectively combat an issue - but they just aren't used.
This is not a western or first world phenomina, nor just his generation - it is where the entire world is and where it has been in the past.

Seeing all this presumed hedonistic behaviour is one thing - recognizing what your seeing is another - and knowing how to respond appropriately (or take action) if you are concerned about it, to fix the problem would be a logical next step. What do you see as a step to a solution to fix the broken men you see?

You also sound frustrated with the situation - and want to see change and things to be better, but dont have the solution on how to change it, or make it better.
IMO there is no difference to what you might feel, and what the frustrated man on the street feels when his true convictions, ambitions, and contributions to the greater cause, cant be realized.

I think he'd also feel that what you said rings a bell: "right now, for me, this state of America, of the Western world.... It's hell, and it's blasphemous. Humanity is becoming sick and debased, Western society is decaying and festering right before our eyes."

I think you two might even get along and come up with a better plan.

originally posted by: cuckooold

originally posted by: Gallowglaich

originally posted by: woodwardjnr

It seems that so many young men these days have mostly resigned themselves to just indulging in the latest hedonistic trends: partying, drug-use, promiscuity, listening to banal pop music, lacking any true conviction, and preferring to live their lives in pursuit of selfish pleasures. I see a lack of real ambition, I see fear of committing to a greater cause.

Right, people said that about Mods and rockers fighting on Brighton beach in the 60s, hippies at Woodstock getting free love in the 60's, punks wearing outrageous anti establishment clothing in the 1970s, Ravers in the 80s and 90's dancing to Acid House music. All youth culture gets attacked by the older generation. You've just joined a long list of moaning old farts. Congratulations.

At least punks were tough fighters, fearsome and respected in their own way. Men today are pathetic little children, sissies and cowards that can barely stand on their own two feet, let alone really be worthy of being called a man at all.

I bet most of you here have never even been in a real fist-fight before. The degeneracy and effeminate behavior of males today is sickening. Men were born to be providers, warriors, and role-models, not Justin Bieber and Screamo fans who whine about their emotional problems and treat girls like friends and equals, rather than female counterparts.

Because obviously the mark of a real man involves going out and beating other men, in a Darwinian survival of the fittest scenario?

And of course, yes, our society is in decline because there's not enough real men duking it out in the street.

Basically, yes. I can only point to the still strong Scottish Ned culture, and say this is how young boys should be growing up. This is how real men are created.

Guys like this make you Americans look like complete pussies, and you know it:

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Gallowglaich

Wow.
How far should this Scottish Ned culture you are so proud of go then?
Must violence be used if you lose an argument? Knock someone out? Stamp on their head after they go down?

I'm glad I don't live in an environment such as you describe.
My late teen son has played rugby since the age of 6. I've watched a few scores settled on that pitch with red cards and red blood flowing over the years, but as far as dishing out a Glasgow kiss to someone on the street because he looked at you the wrong way, nah the rugby lads are above that....although you start a fight with them and they will be more than happy to use 'reasonable force' as required.

But then that's a bit more sensible and intelligent than the uneducated, uncontrolled, testosterone fuelled, alpha male insecurity issue dominated society which you appear to endorse.

a reply to: Gallowglaich

Now now, Gallowglaich. Lets not glorify these mindless thugs, for they lack direction as much as do any group of young people, otherwise they would be doing something other than hanging around play parks despite being in their adolescence or older, and threatening anyone they do not recognise. Also, there is nothing laudable about the pack mentality, as well you know.

The crucial thing is, that these young people are no better than anyone else, and significantly worse than many. While I would agree that having backbone and the ABILITY to slug a fellow in the neck when his actions demand it is a necessary function of human males, and indeed females in certain circumstances, I would also say that this ability is nothing but thugishness, if it is not informed by intellectual capacity beyond that contained in the average packet of copier paper, which is what is displayed during such mindless pursuits as a Saturday night slugfest, purely for its own sake.

a reply to: TrueBrit

They are just bored teenagers looking for a thrill, but in them I see highlander spirit. Tribal clannish blood still runs strong there, unlike in the soft, cosmopolitan south.

a reply to: Gallowglaich

The South is not as soft and cosmopolitan as you might have been lead to believe. My time in high school can largely be summed up as a five year long knife fight, that I turned up to unarmed every day. There is little that strikes one as soft about such an existence when one is living through it.

However, although I would not change who I am because of having lived that life, I would say that I would have appreciated being allowed to have a childhood, being allowed to take advantage of the offer of an education, rather than being forced to spend more time defending myself than applying myself to my studies.

Furthermore, I think it is somewhat crass to compare the idiotic and pointless behavior of these modern louts, in their trainers and hoodies, with that of the tribal cultures of ancient times. True enough, they may have been reavers in combat, with no match in terms of savagery on the battlefield, but there was far more to their lives than combat. They also had a culture beyond who could hit who hardest. These morons in their sports gear do not.

a reply to: Gallowglaich
Haha you genuinely believe that?!
I've fought and beaten a few needlessly aggressive Scots over the years here on the SW coast of England.
A common theme has been dominance-alpha-male issue Scots mistaking Westcountry friendliness as a sign of weakness, and then they've been surprised when they pushed it into violence, that we are happy to fight just as hard, but getting on with each other is a bit more mature as a society.

Perhaps your societal environment will equally mature with the next generation.

a reply to: grainofsand


Northerners are tougher than Southerners, it's just a fact. The fellow from Manchestor will almost always be tougher than the fellow from London. And they only get tougher the further north you go....

a reply to: TrueBrit

But really think about, does it not seem now like your experience in school has made you a stronger person today?

a reply to: Gallowglaich
Hahaha! Are you from the generation of the guy in your avatar?
If you genuinely believe that tired old stereotype then I shall bid you good day with a realisation that rational debate is unlikely with your good self.

From what you have expressed so far I imagine that at this point you would want to resort to violence if we were face to face right now. I on the other hand would still be laughing as you forced me into using reasonable force to defend against your needless aggression...haha, ohmygosh, thanks for the laugh!

North = Hard?
Violence over discussion = Real men?

...what century are you living in?!

a reply to: Gallowglaich

Stronger in what way exactly?

Yes, I can disarm a blade wielding opponent, yes I can shatter a mans wrists with two very short ranged punches, yes I can do a whole host of horrible damage to a person with my bare hands, but none of that has any bearing on my ability to live in this era.

Because I needed time and freedom and PEACE in which to study, I could not get the qualifications I needed, when I needed them. I had to resit my GCSEs because my school was a warzone. As a result, when I finally gained my GCSEs after an extra year, I had to immediately find work, rather than thinking about carrying on my education. I was robbed of five years of intellectual progress, and for what? No one has even dared look at me funny for the last eight years, so in terms of how I benefit now from the violence that was foisted upon me then, I fail to see it.

What I have been however, is in a position where I need to be able to add up worth a crap, something I found difficult my whole life. If I had been allowed to damned well concentrate, rather than having to dodge flying objects, blades, and a whole host of other assorted crap, I might have mastered numbers enough to understand bank accounts, and all the trappings of a normal life, but no. I find that stuff impenetrably hard, because every time I try and remember my lessons in mathematics, I just get violently angry and sit there seething.

What the bloody hell use is that in this era?

None of that prepared me for the assault of government form filling, tax, money, banks, managing my home life, organising my living space, being able to defend myself from the sort of threats I face daily as an adult. None of it. Good lord, if the world went insane tomorrow, and there was chaos in the streets, I would find myself at an advantage, but that is a very limited set of skills that we are talking about, certainly when compared to the list that I missed out on by obtaining them, quite without wishing to I might add.

originally posted by: Gallowglaich
I can only point to the still strong Scottish Ned culture, and say this is how young boys should be growing up. This is how real men are created.

You're criticizing ladette culture whilst saying that threatening random strangers with physical violence and being a ned is a good thing. Where do you think persons learn to be ladettes? Ned culture helped invent the stereotype.

I want to understand your point of view, but I just can't find anything that makes sense.

a reply to: Pinke

There were no ladettes when men were routinely slaughtered in vicious tribal conflicts and women were expected to pop out as many children as they could for the strength of the group.

Such is as we were meant to live.

a reply to: Gallowglaich
Can't you just be happy with a vote on independence? leave the vicious tribal conflicts to history.

a reply to: Gallowglaich

You should check out Boudica and also read up on some of the history of your country. There are Celtic graves and sources that suggest Celtic women actually fought, and several tribes and peoples around those areas gave women more power than other civilizations of the time.

Cultures around the areas you're talking about are the home of the ancient ladette as well as some places closer to Russia.

a reply to: Pinke

Yes yes, Morrigan and Boudicca and gender equality, I know all about it. It is true that women sometimes fought, but it wouldn't be a regular occurance. That would be a fanciful way to look at history.

When Highland Jacobites were coming down out of the hills to fight against insurmountable odds, English guns and artillary and rank upon rank of trained soldiers, with only a claymore, a fierce reputation, and their courage, it was men who were doing the killing and the dying. It was men who were bleeding and praying and screaming for their mothers.

a reply to: Gallowglaich

You do know it isn't 1816 it is 2014.
Watching to much Braveheart I think.

originally posted by: cuckooold

In many ways, I think the younger generation to be far better informed, and more tolerant. For instance, there is less racism, sexist behaviour, and homophobia. A healthier more questioning attitude, and a general unwillingness s to blindly accept lies from those in authority.

I agree, and I think that's where the misunderstandings come into play. People see a 15 year with no drive or ambition and call them lazy. They're 15 so they haven't been beaten down and blinded by society yet. They see things for what they are and they don't want to play the game. Think about it, all it would take is for that entire generation to tune out and stay that way until the preceding generation dies off. What do you have then? A very good chunk of society not playing the game and, by that non-action, forcing a change. You also have that generation making babies who are going to be looking up to, and emulating, them. They say the children are the future. Dissolution them and they'll make YOUR present a living hell. They have that power.

Read an account of lifestyles in the 1970s of fifteen year old girls chasing after bands like Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, and I think this is far more outrageous than the somewhat timid behavioral discrepancies of Justin Bieber or Lindsay Lohan.

Now picture a 15 year old boy in that same time. The girls who got all hot and bothered over Robert Plant who couldn't have him?...........easy pickings. I wouldn't want to be a 15 year old boy right now if my female peers got worked up over Beiber. That situation won't make a man or woman out of anyone. If you want to play second fiddle to Robert Plant though, you better man up.