The Terrible Fear of Paying the Poor Too Much

originally posted by: CZ75P01
Its pathetic. These weak, entitled individuals make me sick. Man-up and grow a pair.


just an opinion

didnt mean to offend

No worries amigo, youthful arrogance is expected and few are offended by it'

a reply to: V22tech

Exactly. You made it. You didnt sit back and whine. The janitor sas metaphorical in my comment. There is no shame in being an entrepreneur or joining the military. You didnt sit back with your hands out, you saw what you had to do, and did it.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Anyone can send jobs overseas to make the corporation rich which is part of the problem with our country now. As far as that goes I believe we should reinstate tariffs on goods being shipped into our country so that to the corporate hierarchy manufacturing at home becomes more lucrative. That is how we once delt with foreign cars and before that 20% of federal tax came from tariffs.

How can we give corporations rights as personhood when they hold no allegiance to any country? They may be US based (some of them) but for all intents and purpose they are spread across the globe primarily in countries the CEOs would never live.

What?!

You mean you don't want to live in an interdependent one world utopia?

-FBB

I don't know where you get your ideas from or why you seem to take such liberties in making assumptions about me or my beliefs..

It was a sarcastic comment concerning the leading political ideology and vision of organizations like the UN. Globablization (corps outsourcing to other nations) has been declared integral to reducing the possibilities of war by forcing nations to cooperate, aka trade. This serves to develop the less developed nations and eventually pave way for the elimination of national borders to give way to global governance.

This policy is supported by folks like Rockefeller and paper from the Rockefeller Institute have outlined that extreme disparities will result from such policies creating a class of the super rich and mobs of the poor.

This business model is fully endorsed by the major governments of the world.

Your comment was insinuating that there was a governmental solution to non nationalistic business practices while I was commenting on the fact that governments themselves are increasingly non nationalistic and such practices further their own goals.

-FBB

a reply to: CZ75P01

Unfortunately, several individuals here seem to think that my disdain for complaining minimum wage workers is completely unacceptable and that it is evil to make suggestions on how to get out of the slump of minimum wage. Its obvious these people are envious of those doing better and think everyone should be paid the same, you know, like in communism.

i really do not think mcdonalds or wal mart
was supposed to be a career path.

a reply to: V22tech

Disdain for a kind of worker only points to a special type of idea of entitlement. If you believe yourself to be above any single human who works and tries to make a life by their own means then you are the one suffering from an entitlement complex. I have been the dish-washer, the big box retail worker, the college student, the industrial inspector and tradesman. And that's all in 31 years.

I don't feel entitled or above anyone, I don't look down upon or view someone as a drain on society. I do see greed. I do see true wickedness. But it is never "beneath" me on the social/economic scale, it's always above, glaring down, wishing to see me as something less than it.

If you are an individual who accepts their place, you have failed. If you are an individual who wishes to rise above in order to glare down from on high, you have failed. These character flaws are what give us such a wage gap, such a notion that someone who flips burgers is "stoned and brain dead". It is a notion that only serves to harm society and humanity as a whole, not to mention the person who perpetrates it upon another who they feel to be a lesser.

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

Of course governments backs the current structure. Politicians are in the pockets of corporations. Those corporations that are given rights of personhood so that they can donate untold sums of money to the politicians which in turn ease regulations and would never think of implementing tariffs on imported goods.

The first step would be removing the corporate personhood status they enjoy. That would be monumental in reversing some of the damage that has been done to this country. That will also be very hard to do.

originally posted by: macman
People are paid what their skill is worth. If their skill is worth $8 an hour, then they should be paid accordingly.
If their skills are worth $10 gazillion a year, then they get it.

What a foolish idea. Have you no understanding of economics?

People are paid only as much as it takes to maintain enough of them to run a business. Businesses only pay more for some people because they expect more productivity or because nobody with the skills necessary for the job will settle for less.

The minimum wage arguments are another distraction that seems to be pretty effective. The minimum wage jobs are such a small portion of the overall economy that it makes little difference in the big picture. But if they can keep us fussing about it...rather than agreeing that people should be paid what their labor is worth. Why should the government tell me what my labor is worth?

If you feel that you are worth more than you are being paid, it is up to you to take your case to the person who determines your pay. If you are correct in your reasoning, your employer will give you a raise. If your employer disagrees with your assessment of your worth you are perfectly free to find someone who recognizes your worth and will pay for it.
I don't believe in kow-towing to anyone. I recommend negotiations with the employer. I know my worth at several different jobs and have never been hesitant to ask for more money when I assumed more duties or more responsibility. I fully expect to be able to negotiate with the people I hire as laborers and craftsmen.

a reply to: OrdoAdChao

You are incredibly wrong. Because I chose to rise out of the lower class and do something, im entitled? Entitled to what? The definition of entitled is to furnish with a right or claim to something. Exactly what am I claiming im owed? I seriously think you have no idea what you're talking about. You know who is acting entitled? People with IQs barely above coffee pots moping floors claiming they are worth $10 or $15 an hour. I didnt say I hate all minimum wage workers, there's that lack of reading comp again, I said I cant stand the ones who complain then do nothing to better their situation. I also cant stand people that make excuses for them.

So you dont look down on those that are 4th or 5th generation welfare that just sit around and sh*t out kids making more than a disabled vet? Im calling BS on that one. Sticking ones head into the sand and ignoring reality like you are so painfully doing, helps to perpetuate this wage gap and is one of the causes for people think its ok to just do the minimum and expect the maximum in return.

Maybe we should talk about paying the corporate executive suite too much that is the problem:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: spirited75
i really do not think mcdonalds or wal mart
was supposed to be a career path.

That is a really tired argument.
Why shouldn't they be for millions of Americans who are willing to work? Right now that is the best that many can get, even some with college degrees are working in retail and fast food. Is Costco or Home Depot a career path? Yet they pay 3 to 5 times what Walmart pays. If you're willing to work, then you should have to receive a livable wage in return, regardless of what that work may be. Why should a small number of very wealthy get away with using what is effectively slave labor?

I have to laugh when people try to make some sort of connection between the minimum wage and how much CEO's make. The true minimum wage is always zero, you can always be fired, laid off, etc. So what this is (minimum wage), is setting the gap between unemployment (zero worth) and how skilled you must be to get paid. So if we bump up the minimum wage, the guy with $8/hr worth of skills either gets sent to the unemployment line, gets an increased work load, or the business raises prices to pay for the artificial inflation of worth.

So how do you know how much your skills are worth? Supply/Demand curve. How many people can do your work. Any able bodied person can dig a trench or put fries in a cup. Supply overwhelms demand. Now, how many people can run a multibillion dollar company and increase its growth? Not many, probably only a few thousand people in the entire US. Which is the reason empires like sears, microsoft, GE, Research in motion, nokia, etc. are crumbling from the inside.

Finally, I want to address the oracle BS. The OP makes a point of comparing the oracle CEO's $79M to minimum wage, while this is a ridiculous thing to do because it's apples vs kiwi's, it's also ridiculous because take look at the salaries posted for oracle on glassdoor.com, the lowest was $52k, a far cry from $15k, and likely doesn't include the worth of benefits. It's also worth noting that the investors in oracle are PISSED about the $79M compensation the CEO received. They're taking action against him in many different forms.

The point is, minimum wage (in the real world), has nothing to do with maximum wage, in fact, neither should exist.

a reply to: defcon5
"That is a really tired argument.
Why shouldn't they be for millions of Americans who are willing to work? "

It's not walmart's job to provide people with careers, that's why. Who's job is it to provide a career? why, it's each individuals job to decide what they want to do and develop themselves to the point they're able to do it well.

it's walmarts job to sell products to customers at a price their customers are willing to pay. Not provide careers.

Why should walmart pay someone $15/hr when they're willing to work for $8? Do you go to the store and pay $20 dollars for things that the store is willing to sell you for $12?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Did you know that raising minimum wage would actually HELP the economy because it would create less job turnover, costing corporations less, and also would generate more money to be spent on consumerism?

Sometimes *cough* these corporate leaders let their clouded opinions get in the way of progress. That is the serious danger of having too much power.

I doubt anyone on this forum benefits from corporate greed to the extent the corrupt do, not even Jesse Ventura. But we would all benefit from a bit of good policies.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: defcon5
"That is a really tired argument.
Why shouldn't they be for millions of Americans who are willing to work? "

It's not walmart's job to provide people with careers, that's why. Who's job is it to provide a career? why, it's each individuals job to decide what they want to do and develop themselves to the point they're able to do it well.

it's walmarts job to sell products to customers at a price their customers are willing to pay. Not provide careers.

When people are finding work, they have to take the work that is available. This magical idea that jobs exist that don't exist is ridiculous. The jobs that exist are the ones that exist. Fact.

Wal-Mart put a lot of small businesses that did provide careers out of business. That is how come they are mandated to pay workers more than those workers are worth to them.

originally posted by: darkbake
originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: defcon5
"That is a really tired argument.
Why shouldn't they be for millions of Americans who are willing to work? "

It's not walmart's job to provide people with careers, that's why. Who's job is it to provide a career? why, it's each individuals job to decide what they want to do and develop themselves to the point they're able to do it well.

it's walmarts job to sell products to customers at a price their customers are willing to pay. Not provide careers.

Interesting, So walmart put other businesses out of business, who provided career paths. So they should be required to provide career paths...? I'm not sure I understand that correlation.

Walmart put those businesses out of business because they could provide similar products for a lower cost to the customer. Part of that cost savings was that they hired young/unskilled workers and paid them accordingly. Sales associate at walmart vs sales associate at mom/pop shop = same skills, anyone can do that, the supply in the labor market was there, but the prices were artificially inflated by mom/pop shop.

It's not a wise career choice to pick something everyone can do.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
a reply to: BuzzyWigs
With all due respect to Republicans that I know, the elite of the party and the actual policies are completely elitist, pro-rich, anti-poor and middle class, aristocratic, and quite frankly, exploitative. Then, the elite and pundits use religion, traditional values, and fear such as terrorism to cow the population and get votes.

Based on my understanding of the Bible and what I see presented to me as right-wing opinions, the conservatives in this country are going to hell. I wouldn't ask them for spiritual advice. That is one of the things that bothers me the most about conservatives, is the exploitation of God for money.

a reply to: darkbake

"Based on my understanding of the Bible and what I see presented to me as right-wing opinions, the conservatives in this country are going to hell."

Please expand on this, what kind of disconnect do you see?

a reply to: Dfairlite

The correlation is that Wal-Mart took away opportunities. In fantasy land, it might be easy to start whatever business you want, but in real life, a Wal-Mart nearby makes it harder to do that.

The average worker doesn't have much say in the structure of the jobs offered by the economy, unlike you seem to think. They have to make do with what is available. Even small businesses fail 8 out of 10 times in the first year alone.

If Wal-Mart has jobs available, and there are less jobs available other places, then people are going to have to work at Wal-Mart. Even Wal-Mart wants to keep its workers.

Since we live in a first-world country and have the ability to create a nation with a high standard of living, it is only reasonable that we do. The only reason to purposefully take away other people's standard of living when they are doing their part for society is out of spite, destructiveness and bad policy.

It is certainly not a religious way of life or world-view. I could see having this world-view if one was a materialistic elitist with sado-masochistic tendencies and archvillain aspirations, but not a caring human being.