The Terrible Fear of Paying the Poor Too Much

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: crazyewok

And that's what the market is for. You want a good janitor? You can't decide to only pay him $1.25/hour. You won't find someone to work for that. It's a balance between what someone will take and what you will offer. Additionally, there are other employers, and they all need janitors, too. So, you have to compete against them also. If you can't pay the most, you find other ways to make your company attractive like employee perks.

But imposing artificial floors and ceilings is damaging. How many people are going to hire teenagers with a so-called living wage? So, what kind of jobs are left for teens to get an entry into the market, and how sad is it that grown adults now expect to make a living on jobs that traditionally used to be teenage first jobs?

As I have said before deregulation is likley the awnser, high taxes and wage caps seem to make matters worse.

Plus fix unemployment, more jobs so adults are not forced to live on entry level jobs.

a reply to: crazyewok

Change that from average to median, and I'll be with you on that. Depending on the state, a few outliers could still make an average a pretty plum deal.

As for the main topic a livable wage that keeps up with inflation would do some good, either that put price restrictions on some goods and services to lessen the impact of inflation. (Although the second one probably sounds more socialist than welfare to some folks.)

Then to improve the job market, an "environmental and health" tax on import goods made in processes not compliant with EPA or OSHA regulations here. Even if companies producing goods don't bring the jobs back, working class people somewhere will still benefit if they actually clean up to avoid such a tariff.

It’s obscene. The income disparity in the US has become truly alarming and paints a dismal picture of the times to come. The middle class is nearing extinction, while the fat cats are thriving and hoarding all the resources. It really amazes me how politicians are able to manipulate the masses and convince them that voting against their own best interests is in fact in their own best interest. Convoluted thinking at it’s best!

Believe it or not, there was a time not all that long ago when a single-income family was possible. America actually had a middle class, and our standard of living was envied by most of the world. We had a first-class educational system. We did big things and had a real vision for the future. The American Dream was alive.

Raising the minimum wage in the past has never lead to any significant decline in employment rates, as many cut-throat politicians like to claim. As a matter of fact, doing so has always shown a positive return on investment - it stimulates the economy as people go out and spend the extra money, paying sales taxes and purchasing goods, which in turn requires companies to hire additional help to satisfy the upsurge in demand. And yet politicians will blatently lie to us about it to keep Corporate America happy and those campaign contributions rolling in. It’s downright unAmerican in my opinion. I think 2/3 of the Congress and Senate should be lead out of the Capitol in cuffs.

It’s appauling to think that in 2014 people are still working at 1970’s wages. Eventually something’s got to give; this trend is simply unsustainable. Unless there’s some significant redistribution of wealth/resources, at some point our economy, and society, will simply collapse...

Nice post, BuzzyWigs. Cheers...

a reply to: netbound

Its getting horrific in the UK in the ways you mention. Apparently we are even experiencing a brain drain of our youngsters after they leave university. This is the second time we have had a brain drain. We suffered for years when the middle management fled and now its our youth.

If you saw the piffling increases in things like the State Pension, which is one of the lowest in Europe, you would never think that the UK is considered a wealthy country.

Our middle class is slowly disappearing yet we have exactly the same as you an ever wealthier elited lauding it over everyone here. I saw a documentary where our minimum wage was tried out by a politician who did a little programme on his progress to live for a week on it. He failed miserably and couldn't believe the hardship such low money incurred. I have never seen this repeated and it got so little publicity, whereas it should have been front page for the media. We have also had experiments done on tryhing to live on benefit here and again the result was disastrous, I suspect the politicians were embarrassed and the media simply didn't give this subject any coverage.

I rather hope the wage disparity continues... as then things might actually change when the masses truly can't take it anymore. I don't like most aspects of our present system.

But this capitalistic-ish system works far better when the wages are closer together. Our best times, economically, were when the average wages had less of a gap between high-low.

Oh well, people will continue to clamber for the rights of the greedy in the wain hope that they might get to be greedy someday, too.

Common sense and empathy dictates that hoarding by a few when the masses suffer demands action... the "free hand" of the market ain't gonna do it this time. There are enough of us and the system is complex enough, now, to warrant a bit more planning in regards to our collective futures.

Force in the name of kindness is a problem filled domain that needs to be explored... the hoarders are not going to change by themselves.

a reply to: pauljs75

The problem with price controls is that businesses are operating for the most part within a fairly thin margin of what the market will support. If you force them to keep the cost down too much with a ceiling, then you risk making it not worth their while to produce the good in question resulting in shortages of needed items.

This happened with the flu vaccine a few years back when a price ceiling was imposed. Or ask someone about the gas lines of the '70s which came about after price controls were imposed on the price of gasoline. It become economically nonviable for the petroleum companies to produce gas ... so, they didn't, not enough. With imposed floors or ceilings, you risk pushing businesses out of that thin margin of what their cost of business will support and consumers will pay for. When that happens, you risk destroying the markets and businesses entirely.

This is why you always see centrally planned command economies fall apart, always. They are simply too complex to be run.

a reply to: Baddogma

If you think this is actually a capitalist system, you are sadly mistaken. What we have a is a crony corporatist state closer to fascism or socialism than it is to true free market capitalism.

This is why I wish people would boycott everything and take their money out of the system as much as possible. They have absolutely no reason or incentive to change and at the same time its us who keeps them so rich. They need us and we don't need them but somehow we seem trapped in this oppressive system they created. I wonder how fast they would change their ways if their profits disappeared because people stopped playing their game?

What will eventually happen is that the US will become like Mexico with cartels and gangs making kidnapping the rich a growth industry.

When the poor become desperate; it gets ugly very fast.

a reply to: ketsuko

I agree totally... thus the -ish at the end.

Getting money out of politics ... all of it... is the ONLY answer if we want a semblance of rationality to return to our governance (well, that and a political 'draft' from a pool of peer suggestions to help keep flawed personalities from seeking public office).

The ideas about how to fix this have been around for awhile... but implementation will be interesting.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: netbound
I'
Its getting horrific in the UK in the ways you mention. Apparently we are even experiencing a brain drain of our youngsters after they leave university. This is the second time we have had a brain drain. We suffered for years when the middle management fled and now its our youth.

If you saw the piffling increases in things like the State Pension, which is one of the lowest in Europe, you would never think that the UK is considered a wealthy country.

Our middle class is slowly disappearing yet we have exactly the same as you an ever wealthier elited lauding it over everyone here. I saw a documentary where our minimum wage was tried out by a politician who did a little programme on his progress to live for a week on it. He failed miserably and couldn't believe the hardship such low money incurred. I have never seen this repeated and it got so little publicity, whereas it should have been front page for the media. We have also had experiments done on tryhing to live on benefit here and again the result was disastrous, I suspect the politicians were embarrassed and the media simply didn't give this subject any coverage.

It is middle management who provide jobs for everyone else. Senior managers, managers, team leaders, tech leads, senior engineers, engineers, junior engineers and interns. Whenever a new project starts, they have to find the staff at the top before they can provide jobs for the people at the bottom. Sometimes people at the top leave to set up their own company. It used to be that people in their mid-50's moved into management. Their kids had grown up and gone to university, and they would consider early retirement if it weren't for the big money on offer. But the banking spivs thought they were overpaid and decided companies should downsized and "get rid of the dead wood". So they laid off all these people. But then they realized too late all these people had personal knowledge about past projects, and the company couldn't go back.

Due to austerity measures, they froze salaries below the rate of inflation. Why? To reduce the gap between poor and rich. Yet at the same time, other countries were just raising their salaries above inflation. What happened? Everyone leaves for better paid jobs abroad or becomes self-employed. The minimum affordable salary is £20K/year. You need £50 for food per person, rent is between £500/£800, car is £3000, electricity/gas is £1200/year. council tax is £1200/year, internet is £10/month including free cable. Yet most salaries on offer were only £12K/year. Other companies were actually charging for internships.

Moved to the good ol U S of A back in 1995, trying my best to keep updated with what goes on over there! I soo feel the shame for your government No offense meant, you know what I'm talking bout!

If you guyse were to spit out how close you think a proper revolution from the south (seems like the most potential candidates since I guess they are hungry for revenge after the civil war?

/Peace out from Europe!

When their housekeepers and personal chefs one rise up against their employers the idiots with all the money will stare in bewilderment not knowing why they are hated so much. There is a serious mental illness pervasive in this world that bestows a sense of endless entitlement on some. It makes me sick to my stomach to even think about how greedy these people have become.

a reply to: macman

I respect your replies and counter arguments in this thread. Small business is what makes a thriving working and middle class, which ideally work together to help lift the each other up. However, your arguments fit that class dynamic, which simply isn't the topic of this thread. Stated a different way, the middle class seeks to achieve greater profits for itself while working for and with the working class it employs.

Companies such as Wal-Mart, which is a low-skill employer, build themselves on the toil of their employees and, more to my point, their owners do not qualify as middle-class. In all reality, low-skill does not mean that the employees are worth starvation wages which lead to massive profits for a corporate entity. If a company thrives on the fact that they pay next to nothing for labor, they are a bad company. Wal-mart is not a "bad" company. Their infrastructure is immense and deserving of every dollar they're paid. I will argue that it is a greedy company in that infrastructure becomes a given and a lesson to competitors, and the massive profits that their infrastructure reaps them should "trickle down" to the janitor on up, as opposed to just up. (We'll forget about the over-seas slaves that they own for the moment) Where you blame low-skilled workers for envy I (and others in this thread) could blame the ultra-rich dynasty of the Waltons and their share-holders for greed in excess.

I hate to relate to Judeo-Christian values in this, but the move is apt. I ask you, how is it that the sin of greed is more noble than the sin of envy?

I wonder if there's "Two" sides of fear with this minimum wage issue.

The possible end results of a massive wage increase across the board could be:

1) Layoffs causing more unemployment and government assistance, along with a higher work load placed on the left over employees that could affect service levels to customers.

2) Higher prices across the board.

Where's the middle ground?

HIgher wages might also stimulate the economy.

How long has it been since the middle class has gotten a raise? Well for me it's been 12 years. My son doesn't even believe we used to get bonuses, raises, AND cost of living adjustments. And company picnics too. Oh well. It's a new (bad) USA, and it's no one's fault but our own. We let them divide us.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Ah it has been and been going toward a feudal system for a long time. Only held together by other graces, all of which are not CEO's. First of all a CEO's job is not that hard, a monkey could do it literally, in fact it pretty much settles and works itself and you have little to any real issues to deal with, I mean your making $$$ for following a process which was written down ages if not eons ago, they could not change anything if they wanted to, all they need to do is follow the rules and set up in fact that is a primary skill which is pivotal on who becomes a CEO, or in moving up in the corporate food chain for and in these mega corporations and everything else.

And politicians, I dont know the majority of them are there for this very same fact, if it paid little then none of them would be there...DUH, the whole system is the pyramid system, and believe it or not it was not created by humans, nor are they ultimately its beneficiaries, it may sound nutty to you all but its true, there is even a drug trade on pinal glands. I mean it seems a waste to destroy of full human just to get a thing that is in his head, but hey that's business and humans have done and are doing the same or worse, and in this universe like attracts like. Anyways!

But then again you cant train a monkey to operate the equipment of a space shuttle to bring it back down from orbit if you wanted to, I really dont know why people make a big deal about CEOs, there job after all is to keep the investors happy, and they follow the tried and true method, there just there to please the investors, and who are the investors? And who buys all there crap? And who covets to be were they are? Who really keeps this thing going? Its not the CEOs of the world that's for sure. I mean what has been the answer every single time to increasing profits, dum dum dum take it from the bottom of the pyramid ring. Its not rocket science here people, and they are not inventing or producing anything that has not been in effect or done before.

In all what a job pays is not determined by what you can convince the populous they should get paid, and yes I have seen some who get paid over $20 or $30 to sit on there ass and most of them on the tax payers dime, not to mention the mega rich. Basically the whole system is set up to feed of the many, the good guy and the bad guy are not locked in an eternal war, they are just there too feed off the sheeplee, the salt of the earth, you know the many idiots. If there were actual capitalism 99% of the business and giant corporations would not be able to compete or even exist, its all a system that is set up were one hand greases the other all while the tax payers funds it all, to big to fail, all while they got legions importing there view on things in the street in the classroom on the screen even online 24/7 because after all its not about what you actually do, its about what people think you actually do. Its basically a selling point like everything else, they need to constantly repeat certain things least people think otherwise or ask themselfs why they are there, or what the point of it all is.

This tag team duo of politician and rich personage and corporate entity has been in full effect for a long time I dont know why people are so uppity over it, it is merely just the same incarnation which was going on years ago, and before that, and before that, or back in the dark ages with the surfs, the things you are and they are merely just reinterpret themselfs. And yes there just there to make money, it is what its about, and what they are and what they have always been. And its why you will never see any real actual change in anything, because there fish in the river, swimming happily, what I am saying is there living in the gangsters paradise, they are in there element, there heaven on earth. It would be silly to believe anything else or that they would be capable of anything else, it has been proven over and over that such is the case.

a reply to: macman

Oh lol dude! And what is your skill, keeping the rest of us safe from them vicious goat herders in some third world country? Or you merely just there because the getting is good and your buddies are making you a buck, its a free for all in them parts liberating people of there natural resources is a good business these days, has been for ages. Man # this is why I dont read such things, to many idiots and brain washed on here justifying there correlations. Juxtapose anything lately? So what are you one of there spokesmen? Or at least while the bank keeps rolling.

Gotta love the liberal approach to economics, pay people more for doing less. What makes you think a burger flipper deserves 15 bucks an hour? Are you telling me a walmart greeter deserves more money that a trained IT intro level tech, Are you telling me a kid moping the floor in wendy's deserves more money than a Avionics bench tech? The answer is no. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a career. It was intended for kids going to high school to earn a couple extra bucks on the side. As Carlos Mencia said, "if you're 25, 35, 45 and still working a McDonalds, you're f*cking retarded." I want you to explain to me how hiking the pay of employees by 10 bucks is not going to affect the prices of food. Also, you realize that companies like McDonalds contract out the work to franchises and actually dont set the wages, www.forbes.com.... Working is not a right it is a privilage. If you want to see an actual change and not some liberal knee jerk fix, lower corporate tax, stop printing money we dont have, regulate lawsuits, prices and wages in the medical field, create an interests free monetary system (same thing kenedy was killed over). but no politician is going to do what is necessary to actually fix the problems, they'll just put bandaids on them.