The Conspiracy To Discredit Christ as a Myth and to change Christianity into "do what thou wilt"

a reply to: arpgme

Well said brother.

I mostly ask the ones who do not believe to read from the New Testament in the Holy Gospel of Mark from 13:00 until 13:27. It is what Jesus said about our times.

I have found out that showing people how prophecies about our the years we live have come true by Saints who lived a few years ago is mostly pointless. People tend to hear with their eyes and see with their ears in our times.

As it has been said by many Saints, time and the fulfillment of Jesus and God's Saints words (prophecies) will lead many back to the arms of God.

2 decades ago, in the small home of a family who was compiling with the words of God in Cyprus, a miracle happened. For 8 months, Crosses, Holy paintings of Saints, images of Jesus, phrases from the New Testament were appearing in the walls of that house. The miracle was so huge that even the Turks from the island were going to see the house, were going to see the new Holy paintings which were appearing every day. Have in mind that the house was sealed by the Police since the first days the Crosses appeared in the walls and it was opening by the police once a day so that people could see it. The police was always inside the house while people were visiting it so that no one could paint on its walls. The last phrase which appeared on the wall next to the image of Michael the Archangel was the most important.

The words was in the Byzantine Greeks and it was writing "Ο Καιρός γαρ Εγγύς" which means "Time is short". The time for the fulfilment of the prophecies, the fulfilment of the words of God is short. Have patience, pray and let the others do and think whatever they want. Soon, Truth will shine!

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: immoralist

Yes Christians seem to view questioning their beliefs as attacks on them when in reality, questioning the belief and the subsequent search for an answer should strengthen that faith if it was true. Yet instead, we see time and again, Christians adopting the persecution complex when their beliefs are questioned. Maybe if they had more proof than a silly book written by goat herders as their evidence, like the geologic record, ancient artifacts, etc then people would be more apt to believe them. And then as always, I maintain that if the message that Christians spew was so holy and divine then it should speak for itself, the very message should enlighten someone and all would believe EXACTLY the same since it was divine and therefore not open to interpretation. Instead men can interpret this message millions of different ways, some good, some bad and we have the Christianity of today.

Its been my experience, here anyway, that most of the criticisms of christianity on doctrinal grounds are weak. They don't even constitute what an honest secular scholar would consider criticism. And that's coming from a person that has taken college level classes in christianity at both christian and liberal secular schools.

Not everyone is college educated. To expect the same caliber of criticisms that you will receive in a university while here is a foolish endeavor. I mean just like you find most criticisms of Christianity weak here, I find that EVERY criticism of evolution and the various sciences that Christianity likes to say aren't true are ALL lacking and full of logical fallacies. I have not seen a single valid non-fallacious argument against evolution while on ATS, but again I'm not expecting university level debates here. I'm just happy if the person I'm responding to can even type properly (which is something else that many of the Christians I've debated with seem to lack, but that's a different story).

For example expecting christianity to be a solid mass of agreement is not even something that the bible teaches but rather teaches about false apostles, folks crafty to use scripture for any number of reasons, false prophets, false Christ's, spiritually deaf people and the list goes on. If you obviously don't understand this then how can you be so disappointed and then in the same breath accuse christians of having a persecution complex? It looks like these accusations of persecution complex are simply compensation tactics on the part of "critics" who are fairly dogmatic themselves.

I'm just going off with what I see. It is happening in this very thread. Non-Christians, atheists, and agnostics question something about the bible and then Christians get all affronted because someone DARED to suggest that Jesus may not exist, that the bible may not be true, or that Christianity is wrong. Then to make matters worse, non-Christians again who are tired of seeing Christian imagery everywhere they look (especially around the holidays) demand equal representation of their religious views or at the least having the state be fair in that it shouldn't honor any one religion over another so no religious imagery of any kind.

Then Christians AGAIN get all affronted because non-Christians don't want to see a nativity scene at their local Capital around Christmas time. I'm sure you've heard about the "Assault on Christmas" scare that Christians complain about every year. It's not just around Christmas either. Christians pretend like non-Christians wanting to take God out of the pledge or not letting them hand out bibles in schools is somehow being persecuted or something. It's not, it's just trying to rectify an existing religious unfairness that exists in favor of Christianity. NO ONE is preventing Christians from expressing themselves religiously, just get it out of non-Christians' face in public places and while doing state sanctioned actions.

Seriously, don't pretend like Christians don't act entitled to be the only religion on display and that all other non-believers should just deal with it because its always been that way. Then when it is pointed out how this goes against the spirit of our Constitution, then the Christians defend this by saying that this is a Christian nation or some nonsense like that, then cry that they are being persecuted. To deny this is happening is just foolish.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: Murgatroid

Was Adam ever looked at as God? No

Was Noah God? No

Was Moses God? No

Was Abraham God? No

Was Isaac or Jacob God? No

Was David or Soloman God? No

What do all these people or characters have in common with Jesus? They were all prophets and none of them were ever called God or called themselves God. They are all Sons of God because they were found righteous by walking in the footsteps of God. If anything, Adam is superior to Jesus because he was the first man in creation and didn't have biological parents at all. Even Jesus had a mother.

Actually, the only person in your list who was a prophet, was Moses.

originally posted by: Ninipe
a reply to: WarminIndy

Well if you love yourself, you know yourself, which means you live with an keen eye on your flaws to keep them in check. And there is nothing self-destructive to admit you like stuffed bears, or something, even if you're 53. But in general you sound like a reasonable person, so I guess we might just have a little communication problem here, always the stuff with the definitions and nuances....

The core teaching of real Christianity is that we come to recognize our flaws (loving teddy bears at 53 is not a flaw) and that some of our flaws we need help with, that is why we believe in Jesus, because He offers to us the way of fixing our flaws that we are unable to. Real Christianity is recognizing that when we act out on the more dangerous flaws that we can and do hurt other people.

I don't know how old you are and don't know how many different types of Christians you have met but you have to remember one thing, Christianity has simply become a label to many people. Some people are Christians because their parents were, some people are Christians because they like friends who are, there are many reasons why one chooses to call themselves Christian.

I believe that you have the right to question Christianity and someone who claims to be a Christian. When Christians don't admit they have flaws, then those Christians probably are just in name only.

Despite all of your heartfelt believes about Jesus and the Old testament God, it remains a VERIFIABLE fact that there is ZERO proof to prove your bible was written by men directly inspired by God. There is myriad evidence about the Bible inadequacies as a historical document not to mention its inaccuracy as a guide to existence or a tome of 'facts'.

The literalistic interpretation of the Bible is mind blowing to me, first of all, the notion that these books are a coherent unit and belong 'together' is a totally fallacious argument, these books were compiled by early church fathers that most of you modern Christians would find entirely detestable in belief and action. Your views would undoubtedly be heretical though they seem like mainstream western Christianity today.

Furthermore, what was the selection criterion? Did God guide their hands in the selection of these books and also the burning of the MYRIAD other documents from other Christian communities? If that is so, is God still guiding the hands of men in this way? If so, Why do you not write another Bible, or add modern documents to this Bible? Why Entomb a book?

Ive personally been an extremely committed christian in the past, went to seminary to become a missionary, truly believed, deeply studied. THIS in fact is what lead me to my path of disbelief. If you read the bible, and REALLY read it, dig into the text, and seek to truly understand it without the same of tropes and preconceived notions you will come to a similar point, a point of a crisis of conciseness where you realize that this document cannot be accepted as a literal story, if one wishes to be honest with oneself and honest with the world.

Study the religions which predated Christianity, study the philosophy of the Stoics, Study the religion of Zoroasterianism, study the ancient near east, REALLY study the soil out of which Christianity sprang, You'll realize there is a clear divorce in the the Aramaic nature of what Jesus taught and the clearly Stoicly inspired Pauline philosophy which runs directly against the Hellenic philosophical tradition that was in Tarsus , directly opposed to the Sadduccees also who were the philosophical fruition of Hebraic scholars.

Just because you believe your books, your savior, your notion of God is the truth, the light, and the way, the one true path, the HOLY pronouncement does not make it so. I know you Christians know this, because you realize that all the other religions though heartfelt by their followers are not FACTS in the sense you believe your religion holds.

The funny thing is, that Christians are actually already 99% Atheists, you already disbelieve all Gods who have ever been worshiped other than your own narrow conception of a particular Near Eastern regional Deity who has been expanded as the god of the Universe. Be honest with yourselves, Extend this disbelief to your own God as well, if he is really God he would prove himself to you despite your disbelief. If God was Truly God FAITH would be unnecessary. Extend yourselves the great intellectual boon, the way you treat these false Gods who everyone else believes in, consider that your God may be no different in actuality other than the fact that you believe otherwise. After all, those that believe in false Gods, if they proscribe to the same notion of FAITH that you do, their belief in a false God and your belief in a "TRUE" God are absolutely indistinguishable.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: captaintyinknots

what your god is and how he is, then Ill gladly take a pass.

You have no choice in the matter only because you have made
no other choice in the matter.



Selling one self a bunch of unfounded reasons then pointing those
reasons out to justify ones audacious self righteousness above God?

That would make one rather pathetic all the way around. Not to mention
immature.

See, and without even knowing it, you have just proven what I am saying.
-You claim that, since I dont believe in your god, I put myself above him
-You judge me as self-righteous, pathetic, and immature, with no knowledge whatsoever as to who I am or what I believe.


None of these things could be farther from the truth. Shall we analyze?


-I dont put myself above anyone. That includes god. And thats where religious folk differ. They think they are, absolutely, above non-religious folk.
-Is not the judgement of others, in your religion, to be left only to your god? Does that not make you a 'sinner'?


Hmmm.....

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: captaintyinknots
I'm no prophet and this is not a system you can opt out of. Your opt out only last in this life then it just gets worse and worse for you then no more.

Again, if you are indication of your god, ill take a pass.

originally posted by: immoralist


Ive personally been an extremely committed christian in the past, went to seminary to become a missionary, truly believed, deeply studied. THIS in fact is what lead me to my path of disbelief. If you read the bible, and REALLY read it, dig into the text, and seek to truly understand it without the same of tropes and preconceived notions you will come to a similar point, a point of a crisis of conciseness where you realize that this document cannot be accepted as a literal story, if one wishes to be honest with oneself and honest with the world.

What is the difference in your experience and mine?

I have read the Avestas, the Rig Vedas, the Mahabarahta, the Popol Vuh and many other ancient religious texts, and yet I am able to understand God through the Bible and remain a Christian.

What type of seminary did you attend? And why do you call yourself immoralist? Is it that you still recognize something intrinsic within your heart, that the heart of man is desperately wicked?

I want to understand what is the difference between me and you. As you say, you were personally and extremely committed. What were you extremely committed to? This is something I wish to understand, do people lose faith in God because they feel God failed them or do people lose faith because they didn't know God to begin with?

I am Christian, but I wish to understand these things.

a reply to: arpgme

There is indisputable proof that Jesus Christ existed. There is indisputable proof, through textual criticism and other means, that the Bible is accurate and fully represents what was originally written. For those who would ask "what is this proof?" Look it up yourself, the burden of proof is not on me, it is on you. Even the atheist favorite Dr. Bart Ehrman would agree that Jesus was a real man who lived in Jerusalem and the surrounding area in the early 1st century AD. The question now changes from "Did Jesus really exist" to "Is Jesus really who He claims to be". Are the miracles real? Did His death on the cross really make a way for man to be forgiven and saved from eternal damnation? Was Jesus really the Son of God. Jesus is real... the Bible is real and accurate... now the choice one must make is to believe or not to believe. I for one believe.

originally posted by: immoralist
...it remains a VERIFIABLE fact that there is ZERO proof to prove your bible was written by men directly inspired by God.

If scripture were NOT God-breathed Satan would not study it and quote from it to Jesus like he did with this verse:

The Lord will command His angels to take good care of you. They will lift you up in their hands. - Psalm 91:11-12

If scripture were NOT God-breathed, Jesus would never have used Scripture to counter Satan’s attacks:

Jesus answered, "It is written: ‘One does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God'" (Matthew 4:4)

If scripture were NOT God-breathed, Satan would not HATE it and continually attack it throughout history, like he did in Genesis 3 where he questioned it and then outright DENIED it.

Scripture IS God-breathed, the laws of probability PROVE that this is a fact.

But the evidence is FAR too massive, it's not even evidence, it's irrefutable proof.

The prophecies in the bible have been 100% accurate and it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to have fulfilled them by chance.

Everything we have been fed by religion, education, science, and media, etc. is centered around DENYING this reality.

We have been "programmed" to believe LIES our entire lives...

Lies have effectively BLINDED the vast majority of people in the world to reality.

The ultimate goal of the Illuminati is to to keep the truth as far away from you and me as is possible...

This is WHY they teach that Jesus is a myth...

Over a quarter of all the verses in the Bible contain a prediction about the future. Altogether, 737 separate forecasts are made, from some only mentioned once, to others mentioned hundreds of times.

Of these, 594 (over 80%) have already come true. Since those that have not, are all concerned with the end of the world, which obviously has not happened yet, the Bible has actually achieved 100% accuracy. All that could have taken place already has done so, which should be ample grounds for confidence that the rest will also be fulfilled.

www.danielpipes.org...

"Perhaps the most compelling of evidences demonstrating that the Bible is the word of God is its unswerving ability to accurately predict future events, often in minute details. Specific prophesies are conspicuously absent from the 26 other religious books that claim to be scripture, including the Muslim's Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, and Buddhist writings. This in itself should be a major eye-opener to the honest skeptic. " Accuracy Of Prophecy

Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students.

After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.

Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ

Another attestation to the Bible’s divine authorship is the vast number of detailed biblical prophecies that have come true exactly as foretold. We see the psalmist, for example, telling of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ nearly a thousand years before it occurred (Psalm 22), and hundreds of years before crucifixion was even invented! Simply put, it would be impossible for human beings to have seen so far into the future with such precision and accuracy hundreds of times. Indeed, it would be completely illogical to believe these proven prophecies are anything other than the work of God. Incidentally, and amazingly, probability experts tell us the mathematical odds of just forty-eight prophecies regarding one person (i.e. Christ) coming true as foretold are one in ten to the 157th power!

Is the Bible a fairy tale?

"There are 28 books throughout human history that people claim to be from God. How do we know which one is from God? Only the Christian Holy Bible contains prophecy (foretelling of the future) that has NEVER missed. God tells us, if what the prophet says doesn't come true, he did not speak it."

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: arpgme

There is indisputable proof that Jesus Christ existed. There is indisputable proof, through textual criticism and other means, that the Bible is accurate and fully represents what was originally written. For those who would ask "what is this proof?" Look it up yourself, the burden of proof is not on me, it is on you.

Um... No... YOU are the one making the claim that it is true, therefore YOU are the one who is intellectually responsible for providing the proof.

Even the atheist favorite Dr. Bart Ehrman would agree that Jesus was a real man who lived in Jerusalem and the surrounding area in the early 1st century AD.

An example of an atheist who believes that Jesus existed doesn't give credence to the claim that Jesus really existed.

The question now changes from "Did Jesus really exist" to "Is Jesus really who He claims to be". Are the miracles real? Did His death on the cross really make a way for man to be forgiven and saved from eternal damnation? Was Jesus really the Son of God.

Ok, let me answer those questions with the proof that you have provided:
Not likely, Don't know as the proof for eternal damnation is also lacking so we'll just default to not likely, Not likely.

Jesus is real... the Bible is real and accurate... now the choice one must make is to believe or not to believe. I for one believe.

Uh huh... Hey you know what else is real and accurate? Harry Potter. Don't believe me? Well too bad, the proof is out there and you need to go find it. (see what I did there?)

a reply to: captaintyinknots

Shall we analyze?

By all means.

See, and without even knowing it, you have just proven what I am saying.

Not at all. I know exactly what I'm saying. And observing you twist it
all to suit yourself conclusively. While you continue to hold a more
than obvious advantage over this discussion, by keeping what you
do or don't believe off the table. Whereby my beliefs are laid out in
full view for all to see. Then you even whine about the advantage
to distance yourself from it.

Nor would I EVER think it was perfectly acceptable to try and trick someone into being condemned into whatever hell I believed in.

Can you identify this Christian treachery? Because I for one am at a complete loss.

But, again, you have shown your true colors time and time again. I can say one thing for certain: If the way you treat the people in this world is indicative of what your god is and how he is, then Ill gladly take a pass.

You judge the Creator by his creation of which he bestowed free will.

-You judge me as self-righteous, pathetic, and immature, with no knowledge whatsoever as to who I am or what I believe.

And this is the only line in my previous response I directed at you specifically.

You have no choice in the matter only because you have made
no other choice in the matter.

An observation not a judgement. As in " I'll pass" certainly is a judgement.

It truely is a wonderful system that has been created here. If one wants to believe and is real about it then more proof than one could ever put into words is given. If one want's to prove the opposite then a set of detailed thoughts called science is provided. The thing is that unbelief is so short sided that the walls of humanity begin to close in on ones soul. It is sort of like a timeout for the haughty deniers that creates controlled maddness.

a reply to: randyvs

You judge the Creator by his creation of which he bestowed free will.

How so? Just saying it doesnt make it so. How have I judged "the creator"?

And this is the only line in my previous response I directed at you specifically.

And? Do you not admit that you are judging me?

An observation not a judgement. As in " I'll pass" certainly is a judgement.

This is a total lie (isnt that a sin?). Im not sure you know what the word "judgement" means....

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: arpgme

Um... No... YOU are the one making the claim that it is true, therefore YOU are the one who is intellectually responsible for providing the proof.

I think the poster did indeed make INTELLECTUAL proof. But you need to be clear, do you want intellectual or tangible?

Sure, science can tell you how to build a roller coaster, but science doesn't tell you if it is fun or not. That is your intellectual understanding on whether or not it is fun. Yes, there's a roller coaster, but tangibly you cannot prove to me how fun it might be.

The same with God, intellectually we can believe any way we want, but His omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience can't be tangibly proven. Maybe you like roller coasters and can rationally explain to me why it's fun for you, but never can you tangibly prove why it's fun.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Please don't take this the wrong way but you have been deceived.

all living things are deceived one time or another

I don't just believe what I'm talking about, I KNOW... How do I know? I have seen proof, PERSONALLY.

So has everyone else, didn't you get the memo?

Proof must be experienced PERSONALLY. Don't expect others to show you something you cannot comprehend yet as that is impossible.

Everything is experienced personally and shared if others are there experiencing the same thing.

But if one has proof, its not personal and they can show that proof, explain they know by helping others know.

What you need to understand is that proof DOES exist. I KNOW it and I have found it, it is a FACT.

I think you need understand more than you say others do.

The majority of what most of us believe is a LIE.

Faceless individuals on the net usually say these types of things when they themselves are very deceived and confused and need to speak for others by saying 'we have been deceived' "most of us haven't a clue',

You don't know what a majority or even a minority of people believe or don't believe.

So what lies do you believe in?

We have been "programmed" to believe LIES our entire lives...

But you are special and know the truth and have seen proof, halleluiah.

Until you come face to face with REALITY and understand that everything you know is a lie, you will NEVER be entirely convinced of the truth. The proof is right in front of your face. You just haven't learned to recognize it yet.

You haven't recognized at how much you contradict what you say ion the same post.

What you know and have seen proof of, have you realized its all a lie?

The key is in learning to discern between truth and lies. Until you do that, you are wasting your time.

But there is no truth according to you because everything we know is a lie.

Why are you wasting your time?

The truth IS out there but it's been deliberately buried under a mountain of lies.

Yes by those that say they know and everyone else believes in lies.

originally posted by: BlueMule
In order to discredit Christ as a myth, you have to appeal to the man-on-the-street understanding of the word myth. The problem is, that word has been so heavily abused that it takes a great deal of study to cut through the distortion. The man-on-the-street has not done that kind of study.

I've seen no reason to believe that you guys have the slightest idea what myth and religion really is, much less God. Of course, everyone thinks they do, because those words are common. But they've been so distorted that only years of comparativism can cut through. No disrespect intended but you guys are all barking up the wrong trees.

a reply to: captaintyinknots

This is a total lie (isnt that a sin?). Im not sure you know what the word "judgement" means....

Just saying it's a lie doesn't make it so and judgement carries a sentence.

Conversation deemed hopeless and is therefor terminated.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: captaintyinknots

This is a total lie (isnt that a sin?). Im not sure you know what the word "judgement" means....

Just saying it's a lie doesn't make it so and judgement carries a sentence.

Conversation deemed hopeless and is therefor terminated.

Didnt have a chance from the start, as you came in being dishonest from word 1.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You're cutting semantics here. You and I both know what I was trying to say here.