The Conspiracy To Discredit Christ as a Myth and to change Christianity into "do what thou wilt"

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WarminIndy

You're cutting semantics here. You and I both know what I was trying to say here.

I'm sorry, but you need to be very clear. Either you need intellectual or tangible.

But Leonard Susskind believes that you and I might not even be real and he uses physics and science to make his claims. You might say that you don't believe God could ever exist, but currently you can't prove your existence either.

According to the anthropic principle is that the observations of the universe must make itself compatible for the observer. In other words, as you do not observe God and yet I do, then philosophically, God cannot not exist for me even if God does not exist for you. You only observe what you want to observe but not what is actually there.

Therefore, according to Leonard Susskind, the teapot might just be there. Mathematically you cannot disprove a teapot, because a teapot is nothing more than information.

If the universe or multi-verses do indeed exist, then all of it is information and one then has to wonder where the information came from in the first place. Mathematically a teapot can exist, even if tangibly it does not.

originally posted by: blueyezblkdragon

The truth is you're religion is destroying itself from the inside.

Not to be mean, but this is the most ignorant thing I have read today.

Christianity is under attack from Islam, from the Media, from the current administration. Christian persecution is WAY up across the globe, making it THE most persecuted faith in modern times.

You really need an education about the "truth" my friend.

Paul ruined the teachings of Jesus. When he opposed saint Peter the true successor of Jesus. When he entered the concepts of original sin or that Jesus is God or that there is no need for Circumcision in Christianity.

a reply to: maes2

This may be true, but what does circumcision have to do with anything?

Do you believe hacking off a part of your junk makes God happy for some strange reason?

a reply to: WarminIndy
I grew up Baptist, I went to Campbellsville University and southern baptist theological seminary.

I call myself Immoralist because I believe ethics and morality are two distinct systems, morality being one imposed over top of ethics as a means of social and religious control from priestly casts. The term 'immoralist' comes from Frederich Nietzsche's writing. I don't believe the heart of man is intrinsically wicked or intrinsically holy. I think that through a combination of genetics and rearing you have tendencies and also through what your parents and teachers teach you and what you yourself learn, you constrain these basic impulses or tendencies according to the ethics put forward by your sect, culture, or individual aesthetic.

I was personally committed to my my relationship with Jesus Christ, and the God of the bible, and the Holy Spirit. The orthodox viewpoint of protestant Christianity as is expressed in Christian or Baptists churches. I had an emotional/spiritual/real connection to what I perceived to be a living caring god. I went on mission trips, I built houses for poor people, I helped the poor and I felt the fruits of the spiritual gifts promised in the biblical texts.

I did not lose faith because I believed god failed me in any way, I read the bible daily, re read it, read it in greek, did intensive textual analysis, looked at the over arching themes. Read the documents that purportedly supported the biblical accounts from extra biblical sources, studied the supposed 'faults' or the bible in order to defend the bible , to be a true apologist. People lose faith in god for myriad reasons, I lost faith in God because of his clear non-existence in the world we live. This only became apparent after I realized the faults in the biblical account itself, and just the general Bronze age Magicians tone of the entire new testament, how it clearly stemmed out of various philosophical and religious traditions, how the pauline version heaped disdain upon the learned hellenic/roman schools of thought, how historically the early Christians were subterranean vampires of the spirit, always leading with the distrustful eye.

Christianity is inherently a world disdaining religion. It heaps distrust and ill will upon the naturalism of the earth, it divorces the body from the mind (like a perverted platonism), it is full of hubris and is myopic on 1000 counts, it is the religion of bronze age people who know nothing of science, knowledge, logic, or bright open air. There is no open good will expressed in it, it is all guilt, self fear, domination by a skygod/father, recognition of ones inherent evil, constant duplicitousness in basic nature, self restraint with embodied regret, the exaltation of a SUFFERING God as a sacrifice without even really understanding what SUFFERING really is. I suppose I have an aesthetic problem with Christianity maybe.

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: arpgme

There is indisputable proof that Jesus Christ existed. There is indisputable proof, through textual criticism and other means, that the Bible is accurate and fully represents what was originally written. For those who would ask "what is this proof?" Look it up yourself, the burden of proof is not on me, it is on you. Even the atheist favorite Dr. Bart Ehrman would agree that Jesus was a real man who lived in Jerusalem and the surrounding area in the early 1st century AD. The question now changes from "Did Jesus really exist" to "Is Jesus really who He claims to be". Are the miracles real? Did His death on the cross really make a way for man to be forgiven and saved from eternal damnation? Was Jesus really the Son of God. Jesus is real... the Bible is real and accurate... now the choice one must make is to believe or not to believe. I for one believe.

There is no indisputable proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed, there is barely even any extra biblical DISPUTABLE proof, and yes the burden of proof does lie with you. The burden of proof always lies with the person who is making a positive assertion as to the existence of a given being or object.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: maes2

This may be true, but what does circumcision have to do with anything?

Do you believe hacking off a part of your junk makes God happy for some strange reason?

well I meant God wanted Abraham for circumcision of his sons. This is written in old testament. Genesis. It is sign of covenant some how. But it is omitted from Christianity oddly. So that Jews can say Christians are out of covenant because of this ! While even muslims do it !!

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: maes2

This may be true, but what does circumcision have to do with anything?

Do you believe hacking off a part of your junk makes God happy for some strange reason?

well I meant God wanted Abraham for circumcision of his sons. This is written in old testament. Genesis. It is sign of covenant some how. But it is omitted from Christianity oddly. So that Jews can say Christians are out of covenant because of this ! While even muslims do it !!

And of course you do realise we don't live in the desert anymore? Or at least most of us...

The only reason it was required to hack your junk off was because of infection of the area when sand and bacteria gets in there... The people of that time had no clue as to what was sanitary... Which is the same reason why Pork and shellfish were banned... they didn't know that meat from a pig needs to be well done not just seared...

Have you also noticed that we don't go around killing gay people, or wiccans... or bratty children?

The OT was not God speaking to people first off... and secondly most of it is so outdated that it no longer applies anyways...

a reply to: Akragon
Ok. What you say can be right from your point of view. But How do you know that for example pig meat have no other consequences but What you think. How do you know that the upcoming scientific knowledge will not alter What you have in your mind.
Those people who track God, they believe he is the most knowing and he is the perfect knowledge. The better word which we can be used is that they think of him as the word existence, a pure existence. While humanity is simply nothing but ignorance and lack of existence.
They are after God for his knowledge. They want to use him and obey him like every particles in this world which are obeying certain rules, rules which the creator has passed.
If someone tracks God and he reaches to this point that who God is, he can not ignore this big fact. He can not live like someone who does not know anything.
As a matter of fact the issue is knowledge.

originally posted by: immoralist
a reply to: WarminIndy
I grew up Baptist, I went to Campbellsville University and southern baptist theological seminary.

I call myself Immoralist because I believe ethics and morality are two distinct systems, morality being one imposed over top of ethics as a means of social and religious control from priestly casts. The term 'immoralist' comes from Frederich Nietzsche's writing.

Let me ask this, how much did Neitzsche influence your worldview?

Ethics without morality is mere agreement with cultural overbearance. Morality without ethics is mere self-defining. One may say they have ethics, but if ethics are determined by the societal views of appropriate actions, then certain ethics may go against a personal moral conscience.

Fight Club is a good example of this. Number one rule, don't talk about the Fight Club. That is the ethics of the story, the moral of the story is that one has to be crazy to endure self-flagellation.

You raise the proposition that morality was imposed by the priestly class. However, the prophets continually railed against the priestly class for their continual moral relevance. There clearly wasn't imposition if the early Jews were sacrificing children to Molech, and engaging in sexual rites in Ba'alism.

When considering the other religious systems and their rites and rituals, it becomes clear that a distinction must be made in what is ultimately good for a society. Is it good to sacrifice children to the burning belly of a fire god? I am sure you are aware of that practice. And yet the priestly class didn't prevent them from doing this, and then engaged in that themselves.

The Bible is existential in itself and I am sorry you didn't pick up on that. The Bible asks you, the reader, to examine if the things morally relevant to you is proper and appropriate from a societal perspective. Of course, it will never agree with the moral relevance of human-based philosophies. There is a way that seems right unto man...this is what the Bible reminds us. But that way that man feels, that man who has gone his own way, like sheep led to the slaughter, it ends in death. Does that mean death physically? Does it mean death spiritually?

But man who goes his own way, can man who goes his own way know the end point of his own way? Even the religious systems that are not Christian and more ancient echo this very sentiment, "where is man going on the path that he has chosen?"

If one does not need God, then one must know where their own way takes them. To follow your own way with blind faith in your own limited scope of understanding, can you find your way without having to craft every answer yourself? That may work for a time but how does it answer for someone on a path of self-destruction? If they can't see their own self-destruction, then it is blind faith in themselves, with their own ethics and morality.

Could it be that you simply couldn't answer one question in yourself that the Baptist church and Southwest Theological has not answered for you and that is "How can I know if I am really saved?" Have you been saved now or are you predestined to an end that you have no idea what is ahead and now have nothing to guide you except your own ethical and moral relevance?

But Neitzche cannot answer the fundamental question of "why are men like this?" The Bible does answer that. I am sorry that you missed the Bible as a philosophical work that asks the very same question "What is man?"

a reply to: maes2

Well for one... these people who believe in the OT god need to look into what was actually said instead of just blindly believing in something that was written millennia ago...

IF the OT was of God, it would not contradict itself... Nor would it contradict the son of God, but it does all over the place...

Another issue is the fact that these primitive people we're talking about here didn't know about anything other then what was in front of their eyes... The OT god could have easily been an alien race taking advantage of the fact that they didn't know squat... When moses met "god" on the mountain he came down with loud explosions and fire... My God does not need a ship to ride in... IDK about you...

Even today there are various sects of Christianity that believe in their book so blindly that they will tell you "every word is of God, there are no errors, no contradictions" which is purely naïve... and simply means they just haven't looked hard enough....

Pork is the leanest most healthy meat one can consume... Most people eat it their whole lives with no issues... same thing with shellfish... it was banned because if its not cooked right, its literally poison... but so is chicken... Yet you don't see anyone banning it do you?

Think hard before you fully believe what you'll find in the OT... It is a book (many books) written by men with agendas... All you have to do is read it to find proof of that fact....

What did all of the tribes in that time do... followed a man who told them to go out and conquer the land because "god" said to do so... Kill and destroy women and children because god said you should do so.... Sacrifice innocent animals and spill their blood because god told you he likes it...

fully disgusting behaviour... then suddenly a man who knew God arrived on the scene, and everything changed...

Don't you ever wonder why... OR do you just believe all the books of the bible because their all between the same cover?

For goodness sake, stop trying to tell people that miracles exist because you have read they happened...

I'm fed up with people proposing religion based on hearsay...

Religion has yet to be proved as real, deal with it...

originally posted by: Mclaneinc


Religion has yet to be proved as real, deal with it...

Religion itself is very real.

Now whether or not you agree about God existing, that's a different story.

Christianity is truly based on Mercy (Forgiveness), but it is not that you can "do what thou wilt for thou art already forgiven" philosophy, but as said in Matthew 6:15 and Mark 11:26 you must first forgive in order to be Forgiven.

God is not so forgiving as it seems. One thing God can learn from humans is forgiveness. We humans are capable (although most of us find it very hard, we are capable) to forgive each other without anything in return, without some bloody cruel sacrifice. We can forgive eachother without sacrificing our own child, or demanding to kill some animals.
God only forgives conditionally (Matthew 6:15 and Mark 11:26 you must first forgive in order to be Forgiven.) or in return of death (animal or his son)

We are told "yes", we have received Forgiveness from God for Sins, but we are also to Forgive others or else we will NOT be forgiven.

Remember what "Sin" is. Christians talk about Sin as if it was some evil influence brought about humankind by satan, a magical force which makes us do "Evil" things.
Sin is nothing more than our urge to freedom to break away from the limitations God put upon us. In the beginning there was no "Sin" because there were no limitations for man. The first limitation was put upon us by placing this tree in eden and the law of not to eat from this tree.
Man, not used to limitations, and in all his curiousity ate from this tree, it was inevitable...

By negleting this first limitation, God's wrath was awaken and more limitions were put upon man. His freedom was taken away from him. His lifetime became limited, his access to food became limited, his sexual expression became limited, his power became limited, but the urge to freedom remained and we became "Sinners"
When we cannot die, there is no murder
In a world of abundance, there is no stealing
etc.

Sin = Our natural urge to freedom, and this has to be forgiven by God, by bloody sacrifices? By a God who limited our freedom in the first place?

a reply to: arpgme
Joke. The government says there is a god. And the government would never lie.

originally posted by: mattsawaufo
a reply to: arpgme
Joke. The government says there is a god. And the government would never lie.

Which government?

Our government or the government of atheist USSR?

'Do as thou wilt' is a functional equivalent to being forgiven for any sin. Is there really much difference between Christ's endless forgiveness of sin and committing sin and not gaf?

imho Catholicism teaches you that you can get away with anything as long as you pay tribute and ask the church for forgiveness. The inventors of modern Christianity after all, sure seem heretical and anti-God.

God (Judaism) teaches that divinity is in works, not forgiveness.

If anything, Christianity was a stepping-stone to indoctrinating the world to Luciferianism.

a reply to: arpgme

lost tomb of jesus

a reply to: InhaleExhale

Those who seek to discredit Christ are doing so in order to discredit the teachings that he gave through his Sermon on The Mount.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye

God knows your heart (intentions/goals) and your mind (thoughts/feelings), so even if others keep you out of their lives, God still knows of your forgiving heart.

a reply to: Abavs

Whether or not religion was created to control the masses is a whole different topic which I will not discuss on this thread.

Even if you could prove that religion was created in order to control, that would just show that some of the rules or stories were false and created to control others, not that Jesus himself didn't exist.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Well, we are born into sin. We are born into a world where selfishness, greed, and lust are rampant. Without Jesus (or the prophets) we would be completely lost living in sin and never knowing peace.

a reply to: mattsawaufo

Sure, but what 'god' do they believe in? Their god tells them to go to war and kill people. That is not the Spirit of Jesus or his Father because we are told to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39 ) and that those who live by the sword dies by the sword (Matthew 26:52).

Obama made fun of the teachings of Christ and called them 'radical' [1].

We are told by the early Christians such as Saint Augustine, that The Sermon on The Mount are the highest morals and the perfect standard of Christian life [2].

A person is not a Christ-ian if they reject the teachings that Christ preached in his Sermon.

A summary of The Jesus' Sermon

Luke 6:35-36
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

How can a person be a Christian without Forgiveness?



That goes against 'love ye your enemies'.



How can a person be a Christian without self-sacrifice helping others without selfishness that leads to greed, pride, and wrath?



That goes against 'do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again'.



How can a person be a Christian - A Child of God without doing these things?



We are told that only when we are willing to do these things do we get the reward of being called The Children of The Highest (God).

originally posted by: Specimen
So what, if Jesus is the first that would not smite on wim. Unlike his supposed ed, father who would smite for no reason , 24/7.

Although as much as I do enjoy dismantling Pagan Gods, I do get the sense of the idea of a forgiving god, especially in those unforgiving times.

But alas, it has become an idol of exploitation, and has become a little vain.

How many gods? I had this issue with modern Christianity and the reason why it never perked my interest because it had a personality complex, or rather the god does.

3 into 1, defies logic yet if we are to believe this then the god of Christianity comes across with all the weaknesses we humans have projected onto him (I have yet to find any evidence in the bible of the trinity or mere mention of it, quite the opposite...).

I believe in the people of the book, our god is the one and the same however our perception or acceptance of god is flawed, equally I believe there was and may well be a time again where we do not need religion, we have evolved enough out of the materialistic dredges of this life to commune directly with the force known as god.

The message of Christ was and still is alive, its the same message every Prophet, Saint and Spiritual Revolutionary has been repeating, the same Christ that is glorified in the Qur'an (yes it may come as a shock but Jesus Christ is accepted with all his miracles complete as the Spirit of God in the Qur'an).

When you try to balance a truth with a lie you end up with nothing but hypocrisy at every level which is what has happened to Christianity, going from a Monotheistic belief to one that is a mix of various pagan features whose head is the Church, the politicisation of religion.

These are my views and not an attack on anyone's belief.