This Epitomizes Why Abortion Is Wrong !

a reply to: Bone75

So in the presence of legal and safe abortion, such an act is simply crazy, but you wouldn't consider it crazy if abortion were illegal right?

Wanting or seeking an abortion isn't a sign of insanity. Locking oneself in a closet with a coat hanger is a sign of desperation.

If abortion were to become illegal, then women would resort to all kinds of things to terminate pregnancies, but I think that you'll find more women resorting to chemical options than coat hangers, these days. There will always be someone who will accommodate/exploit a desperate situation.

a reply to: WarminIndy




"DRAMA QUEEN'(S)"

. . . . . much?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Okay people, bone is saying he is royally ticked off at his wife for threatening to kill the son that he loves. She didn't do it because she was forced into marriage or motherhood, she did it because she wanted to hurt him emotionally and you all defend her in doing so.

Bone wants to know why his choice in the matter does not count, and yet the son is the son of his loins. That is called EMOTIONAL ABUSE, that you are defending his wife of and you are perpetuating.

That is between him and his wife. It's not our problem to figure out why. I am NOT defending a pregnant woman with a knife, threatening to stab herself in the stomach.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

I have no idea what you're rambling on and on about........

I never mentioned that particular doctor's name that you got onto adjensen about.

What?

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to prove. I can't follow you. You're all over the place, from Margaret Sanger to fetal pain to Roe V Wade ?????

You are still going to have to address the original court decision in which the Supreme Court said they disagree with women getting abortions when and where they want. It's still a Federal ruling, so take it up in Federal court to overturn their original statements.

Roe v Wade is very clear about the degree of shifting interest from the mother's rights to the state's interest in protecting the potential life of the fetus throughout it development.

Whether you disagree with the prenatal doctors, that's not my problem, it is their science you have to deal with.

I't not my fault that you don't understand neurology and the development of pain and perception. It just so happens that pro-choice groups are the only ones that find themselves answering the pro-life pseudo-science nuttery, because real scientists can't be bothered explaining this stuff to laymen.

My daughter has 3 PHDs; Microbiology, Bio-chemistry, Molecular Genetics, teaches at a major university and holds a position and a world renown lab. She travels around the world lecturing on these subjects. I can't get her post in these kinds of threads, because she can't be bothered with such ignorance. Believe me I've tried. But she does connect me with educational videos to help you folks along. (Which I post, and they are NOT from pro-choice web sites, but universities) I've read every one of her papers, and listened to almost every one of her lectures, as she records them, and send them to me.

Do you have a go to person, to clarify these questions for you?

I accommodated you in two threads, that means you limited my freedom of religious expression and speech. But you won't discuss religion with me any more because you are offended by what I have said, and yet I still gracefully accommodated you.

??????????????????????????????????????????

I have no idea what you're talking about! Gracefully? No, not so much. LOL

I have not mentioned religion at all, have I?

And no, I wouldn't know anything about neurology, I only have a neurological condition that I do read about, know about, study and keep all the literature about. But darn if I know anything about neurology.

Ask her when the cure for MS is going to happen.

But here you go...the articles from journals and scholarly review....that your daughter should know about.

Myers, 2004, p.241, para.2, “The first essential requirement for nociception is the presence of sensory receptors, which first develop in the perioral area at approximately 7 weeks gestation and are diffusely located throughout the body by 14 weeks.95”

Myers LB, Bulich LA, Hess, P, Miller, NM. Fetal endoscopic surgery: indications and anaesthetic management. Best Practice & Research Clinical Anaesthesiology. 18:2 (2004) 231-258.

Smith S. Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience. London: CARE, 1996.

I'm sorry, but what is that? The Commission of Inquiry by whom? Prenatal doctors?

Anand, 1987, p.2, para.2, “Cutaneous sensory receptors appear in the perioral area of the human fetus in the 7th week of gestation; they spread to the rest of the face, the palms of the hands, and the soles of the feet by the 11th week, to the trunk and proximal parts of the arms and legs by the 15th week, and to all cutaneous and mucous surfaces by the 20th week.25,26”

Anand KJS, Hickey PR. Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus. New England Journal of Medicine. 317:21 (1987) 1321-1329.

Humphrey T. Some correlations between the appearance of human fetal reflexes and the development of the nervous system. Progress in Brain Research. 4 (1964) 93-135.

Valnaan HB, Pearson JP. What the fetus feels. British Medical Journal. 280 (1980) 233-234.

Oh, who are these people again? Pseudo-scientists? New England Journal of Medicine is pseudo-science? Your daughter is aware of New England Journal of Medicine, correct?

Lee, 2005, p.950, col.1, “In contrast to direct thalamocortical fibers, which are not visible until almost the third trimester, thalamic afferents begin to reach the somatosensory subplate at 18 weeks’ developmental age (20 weeks’ gestational age)16 and the visual subplate at 20 to 22 weeks’ gestational age. These afferents appear morphologically mature enough to synapse with subplate neurons.17”

Note: Lee et al. believe that pain requires conscious cortical processing, which they deem unlikely until 29 or 30 weeks; nonetheless, they acknowledges this finding.

Lee SJ, Ralston HJP, Drey EA, Partridge, JC, Rosen, MA. A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence. Journal of the American Medical Association. 294:8 (2005) 947-954.

Kostovic I, Rakic P. Developmental history of the transient subplate zone in the visual and somatosensory cortex of the macaque monkey and human brain. Journal of Comparative Neurology. 297 (1990) 441-470.

Hevner RF. Development of connections in the human visual system during fetal mid-gestation: a Diltracing study. Journal of Experiemental Neuropathology & Experimental Neurology. 59 (2000) 385-392.

I see there are a wide range of doctors, including neurologists who do agree that babies feel pain in utero. But that begs the question, as you assert they are not persons until they breathe, does that mean to you that they don't feel pain until they breathe?

a reply to: windword

You didn't answer the question.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Okay people, bone is saying he is royally ticked off at his wife for threatening to kill the son that he loves. She didn't do it because she was forced into marriage or motherhood, she did it because she wanted to hurt him emotionally and you all defend her in doing so.

Bone wants to know why his choice in the matter does not count, and yet the son is the son of his loins. That is called EMOTIONAL ABUSE, that you are defending his wife of and you are perpetuating.

That is between him and his wife. It's not our problem to figure out why. I am NOT defending a pregnant woman with a knife, threatening to stab herself in the stomach.

But the result is the same, as bone points out.

If the baby is not a person then there's nothing wrong with taking its life, right? That's what he is doing, pointing out an obvious hypocrisy on your side.

It's her choice, right? So why are you bothered about the methods to achieve the same goal?

Oh, but you have come between them when you say "her body, her choice".

a reply to: Bone75

Do you want to know if, a pregnant woman were to lock herself in a closet with a coat hanger, threatening to give herself an abortion, would I call for help.....ABSOLUTLEY

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75

Do you want to know if, a pregnant woman were to lock herself in a closet with a coat hanger, threatening to give herself an abortion, would I call for help.....ABSOLUTLEY

Her body, her choice.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Because anyone, pregnant or not, wielding a knife and threatening to stab themselves in the stomach is displaying mental illness and needs intervention.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Nothing that you have posted indicates that a fetus less than 24 weeks experiences pain. Pain is a perception of the brain. Pain is not the same as reflex.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I guess someone never read Freakonomics.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75

Do you want to know if, a pregnant woman were to lock herself in a closet with a coat hanger, threatening to give herself an abortion, would I call for help.....ABSOLUTLEY

Her body, her choice.

Yep. And, I would do everything in my power to make sure she had access to a safe and legal abortion.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Nothing that you have posted indicates that a fetus less than 24 weeks experiences pain. Pain is a perception of the brain. Pain is not the same as reflex.

That's not what they are saying.

But you've made a flip-flop, you said earlier that a woman should have the right and choice to have an abortion when and where she wants...but now you are putting limits on when and where?

Locking herself in a closet with a coat hangar is the attempt to have an abortion when and where she wants, she simply chooses not to involve a medical professional.

So abortion only counts now if it is done in a doctor's office? How's that freedom of choice? You just limited them.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Wildly wielding a knife about, screaming obscenities and threatening to stab oneself in the stomach in order to get a reaction from someone else is a CRY FOR HELP.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75

Do you want to know if, a pregnant woman were to lock herself in a closet with a coat hanger, threatening to give herself an abortion, would I call for help.....ABSOLUTLEY

No I'm not asking if you would call for help, I'm asking if you think someone who chooses to give herself an abortion with a coat hanger is crazy.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75

Do you want to know if, a pregnant woman were to lock herself in a closet with a coat hanger, threatening to give herself an abortion, would I call for help.....ABSOLUTLEY

Her body, her choice.

Yep. And, I would do everything in my power to make sure she had access to a safe and legal abortion.

Only if it is safe and legal, I see.

Nothing to do with her choice and freedom. Her body, her choice, you really have no right to infringe upon her right to privacy in having an abortion of her choice in the bathroom.

a reply to: WarminIndy

But you've made a flip-flop, you said earlier that a woman should have the right and choice to have an abortion when and where she wants...but now you are putting limits on when and where?

You're misquoting me. I stand for the rights of women to have access to safe and affordable abortion. I stand for women's right to comprehensive procreative health.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Wildly wielding a knife about, screaming obscenities and threatening to stab oneself in the stomach in order to get a reaction from someone else is a CRY FOR HELP.

Nope, it is emotional abuse.

Call these things for what they are. And right now, bone is crying for help to understand but you all act like bone should have no rights or feelings in this situation.

a reply to: Bone75

I think desperation, fear and panic can lead people to make rash decisions that aren't in their best interest.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

But you've made a flip-flop, you said earlier that a woman should have the right and choice to have an abortion when and where she wants...but now you are putting limits on when and where?

You're misquoting me. I stand for the rights of women to have access to safe and affordable abortion. I stand for women's right to comprehensive procreative health.

That's not what you said earlier.

And you are still not protecting their full freedom and choice, all you are doing is saying "you can have an abortion, the way I say you can have an abortion". That's all.