This Epitomizes Why Abortion Is Wrong !

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

No outlawing abortion would not have stopped her, but it would of meant murder charges if she had gone through with it. Under our current laws, all I would've been able to do about it is cry my eyes out. That's what you're supporting. You think she has every right to stab herself in the stomach whether my baby is in there or not.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

Isn't the topic about moral relevance though? It wasn't about the legality of it until it was turned that way after the OP.

Anyways, say abortions do become illegal and so does birth control, why would you want to take that option away from women? If they want an abortion they will find a way to do it, including using a coat hanger. Not as safe as the professional method and far more dangerous.

Should I have to pay for someone else's abortion? Hell no, but am I willing to pay for something that will prevent them from happening such as birth control pills? Yes. It's much cheaper than sending a kid to an orphanage and much safer than women trying to perform an abortion on themselves.

Should women have the right to get an abortion? Yes. Should they have to pay for it themselves? Absolutely. If you cut down the safety net (taxes paying for birth control) and let yourself fall through, you should suffer the financial consequences.

I am not opposed to birth control.

There are some people who should never become parents. But the child does not need to suffer simply because it is the child of crazy people and never should it suffer because it is an inconvenience to people. But why cause a baby the suffering in utero? To hack up a child who can feel pain, that's barbaric.

In utero should be the safest, warmest place for it, but it is not. In utero has become a battleground for the right to choose to hack up a child who can feel pain. And we call ourselves civilized for allowing this to happen. The child suffers because of a choice. Good thing the baby only has to experience the pain for a short time.

a reply to: Bone75

There are laws against this, it's called feticide.

Fetal homicide laws, as well as ordinary murder statutes, are increasingly used to prosecute pregnant women accused of intentionally or recklessly causing miscarriages or stillbirths. According to the organization National Advocates for Pregnant Women, South Carolina, one of the first states to pass a feticide law, has charged only one man who assaulted a pregnant woman under this law, while approximately 300 women have been arrested.

Source

a reply to: WarminIndy

Fetuses don't feel pain until about 20 weeks into pregnancy, that's over half of the gestation period. I don't condone abortion that late into pregnancy, if you wait that long to decide to get an abortion then you shouldn't be allowed to do so. That's irresponsible in my opinion, you may as well go ahead and have the baby and put it up for adoption.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

6. Do not dictate to a woman the terms by which seed should bear fruit in her womb. You do not take fruit from trees out of season, nor do you seek to receive it from trees which are not ready to bear it. Just as a farmer discards the early flowering of his trees deemed not ready to bear fruit, so too does a woman know the season of her own womb, and its readiness to bear fruit.

The quote you gave from the 18 year old girl less epitomizes why abortion is wrong; and more epitomizes that she was one who was not yet of season to bear fruit from her womb.

So why should she ever be forced to do so?

Do you think by what you quoted; that she is one at a stage in her life where she is ready to give a child the complete love, and life that it deserves?

If she as fruit, has not fully bloomed herself; then how can she be expected to give the seeds for other fruit to bloom. You need to consider maturity in relations to 'season', rather than physical ability.

A tree will bear fruit early in its life; even though it may not be fit for consumption. Should we try to consume this anyway? So that its life and purpose is not wasted?

Would it well serve the bodies of those who consume it? No it would not; on the contrary it could very well make them sick.

So you need to now ask yourself; would the body of this world and society be better off having been fed over a billion more pieces of its fruit; who the Mothers as the farmers recognised were not yet of season?

Regardless of if you understand the principles of what I have just told you; or you completely disagree with me. You need to recognise that you have about as much right to dictate to another when they should bear children; as you do to a farmer and the fruits of their harvest.

Respect a womans decision, and rights to her own womb of creation; as you would that of any creator. Because it is not for you to decide; just as your own body is not for others to decide. It is your own temple. Do not try to invade anothers temple simply because you do not like what is practiced within it.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

Fetuses don't feel pain until about 20 weeks into pregnancy, that's over half of the gestation period. I don't condone abortion that late into pregnancy, if you wait that long to decide to get an abortion then you shouldn't be allowed to do so. That's irresponsible in my opinion, you may as well go ahead and have the baby and put it up for adoption.

I just posted the link about that. But I will put it here again.

Doctors on Fetal Pain

Van de Velde, 2012, p 206, para.3, “To experience pain an intact system of pain transmission from the peripheral receptor to the cerebral cortex must be available. Peripheral receptors develop from the seventh gestational week. From 20 weeks’ gestation [= 20 weeks post-fertilization] peripheral receptors are present on the whole body. From 13 weeks’ gestation the afferent system located in the substantia gelatinosa of the dorsal horn of the spinal cord starts developing. Development of afferent fibers connecting peripheral receptors with the dorsal horn starts at 8 weeks’ gestation. Spinothalamic connections start to develop from 14 weeks’ and are complete at 20 weeks’ gestation, whilst thalamocortical connections are present from 17 weeks’ and completely developed at 26–30 weeks’ gestation. From 16 weeks’ gestation pain transmission from a peripheral receptor to the cortex is possible and completely developed from 26 weeks’ gestation.”

Marc Van de Velde & Frederik De Buck, Fetal and Maternal Analgesia/Anesthesia for Fetal Procedures. Fetal Diagn Ther 31(4) (2012) 201-9.

It's only by the 20th week is it completely developed, which starts at 7 weeks, which is just about when women realize they are pregnant. 7 weeks is almost only 2 months.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Bone75

So your wife wouldn't have said that or thought about doing that if there were laws against it? I don't understand the logic here.

Laws against murder haven't stopped anyone from murdering someone else so far. There are thousands of murders every year despite laws against it so I don't understand how outlawing abortion would have stopped your wife from doing that. You're ALWAYS going to have people who do things like that, no matter what laws are in place.

I'm sorry you had to experience that though, I'm sure it had to be rough on you. I assume she didn't go through with it, if so thank God for your own sakes.

I just reread his post that you are replying to.

The woman called the baby a "mother....." (which ATS should allow the use of because it is an important point for the discussion).

Now I read it this morning and it shocked me, but look at the difference in what they call him. He says "my son", she says "........." And then they tell us men don't have a right to say anything, yes they do. That's part of them also.

a reply to: WarminIndy

It's only by the 20th week is it completely developed

Nope. This is just the same old pro-life pseudo science, or just out right lies. The neurological systems meant to translate pain, don't even begin to form until after 20 weeks, and they most certainly are NOT fully developed! Pain is a survival/protection mechanism that requires cognizance. Pain exists in the brain, it's a perception.

The infamous anti-abortion film The Silent Scream from the mid-1980's depicts an ultrasound of a "painful" 12-week abortion, but this film has been dismissed as propaganda by medical experts, who say it is "riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies, as well as misleading statements and exaggerations."

This article reviews the scientific evidence related to fetal pain, then looks at the philosophical and psychological aspects of pain. In short, the evidence indicates that fetuses do not feel pain until after the start of the third trimester—and even that evidence remains uncertain because it's impossible to know for sure that fetuses consciously experience pain in the same way that a person does.

What of the claim by anti-choicers that even very early fetuses can feel pain? In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex. Although sporadic brain waves can be detected by about 21 weeks gestation, genuine continuous brain waves do not begin until about 28 weeks,indicating that the nerve circuits needed to carry pain impulses to the brain are not connected till then.
www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org...

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Bone75

There are laws against this, it's called feticide.

Fetal homicide laws, as well as ordinary murder statutes, are increasingly used to prosecute pregnant women accused of intentionally or recklessly causing miscarriages or stillbirths. According to the organization National Advocates for Pregnant Women, South Carolina, one of the first states to pass a feticide law, has charged only one man who assaulted a pregnant woman under this law, while approximately 300 women have been arrested.

Source

Yeah right, those charges only stick if the baby is born alive, and even in those cases the punishment is just a slap on the wrist thanks to all the hardcore women's rights activists.

a reply to: Bone75

Where are you getting this information? Feticide has nothing to do with a baby outside of the womb, it has to do with fetuses inside the womb, hence "feticide". At least 300 women have been arrested in South Carolina alone since it became law, what more do you want? The electric chair? Lethal injection?

Reply to Windward:

The infamous anti-abortion film The Silent Scream from the mid-1980's depicts an ultrasound of a "painful" 12-week abortion, but this film has been dismissed as propaganda by medical experts, who say it is "riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies, as well as misleading statements and exaggerations."

This article reviews the scientific evidence related to fetal pain, then looks at the philosophical and psychological aspects of pain. In short, the evidence indicates that fetuses do not feel pain until after the start of the third trimester—and even that evidence remains uncertain because it's impossible to know for sure that fetuses consciously experience pain in the same way that a person does.

What of the claim by anti-choicers that even very early fetuses can feel pain? In fetal development, most major organs exist in rudimentary form by about 8 to 9 weeks. It takes several months for these organs to grow in size, complexity, and organization to the point they can function. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex. Although sporadic brain waves can be detected by about 21 weeks gestation, genuine continuous brain waves do not begin until about 28 weeks,indicating that the nerve circuits needed to carry pain impulses to the brain are not connected till then.
www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org...

I fixed your highlighting error for you. I suppose a neutral source would be too much to ask right?

a reply to: Bone75

No outlawing abortion would not have stopped her, but it would of meant murder charges if she had gone through with it. Under our current laws, all I would've been able to do about it is cry my eyes out. That's what you're supporting. You think she has every right to stab herself in the stomach whether my baby is in there or not.

Your wife's tantrum/outburst/threat was not really about her feeling forced into motherhood though, was it? It was about your relationship, right? She was threatening you with suicide, taking your offspring with her. She was, most probably,in need of mental health intervention, possibly hormone therapy. If you had called for help, she would have been hospitalized and placed under observation for her own safety.

This is a good example, however, of why doctors often cite mental stress and instability as a reason to grant an abortion to a woman seeking an abortion on those grounds. Would you rather that such an unstable woman be forced to give birth and care for her children, knowing that she may stab them or drown them in the future, do to depression or mental delusions?

a reply to: Bone75

I fixed your highlighting error for you.

What highlighting error?

I suppose a neutral source would be too much to ask right?

Like the false, pseudo science pro-life sites that promote things like "legitimate rape" and "fetal masturbation"? Please!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75

I fixed your highlighting error for you.

What highlighting error?

I suppose a neutral source would be too much to ask right?

Like the false, pseudo science pro-life sites that promote things like "legitimate rape" and "fetal masturbation"? Please!

I try to find the most neutral sites to link to. If you have noticed throughout my posts I have linked to 1: the woman of Roe vs. Wade (ok, not so neutral but a participant, so she counts) 2: The arguments from your side in the original case of Roe vs. Wade from Cornell Law University 3: The citations from the many articles written by Margaret Sanger 4: A site from prenatal doctors from articles posted in secular magazines.

Whether you disagree with the prenatal doctors, that's not my problem, it is their science you have to deal with. Not one thing have I posted was from a pseudo-science website. I never posted a youtube video from a Pro-life organization. I never mentioned that particular doctor's name that you got onto adjensen about.

It is up to you to look at the links, but if you are calling those Prenatal doctors in the secular magazines as pseudo-scientists, then it's their science you are disagreeing with. I am sorry that the citations are too difficult for you to look at.

I even posted the actual laws about fetal homicide and abortion from a non-pro life site. But you have to admit that pro-choicers won't be able to produce anything neutral. I even went so far as to not even mention religion in a forum that is called RELIGION just to accommodate you. If you don't like the religious aspect of a RELIGIOUS FORUM then why did you jump on adjensen and the OP for posting in this forum? Are you removing from us our right to express our religious ideas? If you don't like religion as part of the discussion, then discuss abortion in a neutral forum.

I accommodated you in two threads, that means you limited my freedom of religious expression and speech. But you won't discuss religion with me any more because you are offended by what I have said, and yet I still gracefully accommodated you.

You are still going to have to address the original court decision in which the Supreme Court said they disagree with women getting abortions when and where they want. It's still a Federal ruling, so take it up in Federal court to overturn their original statements.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75


Your wife's tantrum/outburst/threat was not really about her feeling forced into motherhood though, was it? It was about your relationship, right? She was threatening you with suicide, taking your offspring with her.

She wasn't threatening suicide, she was threatening to kill my son for the soul purpose of hurting me.

She was, most probably,in need of mental health intervention, possibly hormone therapy. If you had called for help, she would have been hospitalized and placed under observation for her own safety.

Doesn't that go against everything you stand for? It is your position that if the child hasn't been born yet, then its just an insignificant fetus and the mother has every right to choose whether that fetus lives or dies. If she had grabbed a coat hanger and locked herself in the bathroom would you still feel the same way? Should she be placed under observation for her own safety in that situation as well?

a reply to: WarminIndy

I have no idea what you're rambling on and on about........

I never mentioned that particular doctor's name that you got onto adjensen about.

What?

I don't know what you're talking about or trying to prove. I can't follow you. You're all over the place, from Margaret Sanger to fetal pain to Roe V Wade ?????

You are still going to have to address the original court decision in which the Supreme Court said they disagree with women getting abortions when and where they want. It's still a Federal ruling, so take it up in Federal court to overturn their original statements.

Roe v Wade is very clear about the degree of shifting interest from the mother's rights to the state's interest in protecting the potential life of the fetus throughout it development.

Whether you disagree with the prenatal doctors, that's not my problem, it is their science you have to deal with.

I't not my fault that you don't understand neurology and the development of pain and perception. It just so happens that pro-choice groups are the only ones that find themselves answering the pro-life pseudo-science nuttery, because real scientists can't be bothered explaining this stuff to laymen.

My daughter has 3 PHDs; Microbiology, Bio-chemistry, Molecular Genetics, teaches at a major university and holds a position and a world renown lab. She travels around the world lecturing on these subjects. I can't get her post in these kinds of threads, because she can't be bothered with such ignorance. Believe me I've tried. But she does connect me with educational videos to help you folks along. (Which I post, and they are NOT from pro-choice web sites, but universities) I've read every one of her papers, and listened to almost every one of her lectures, as she records them, and send them to me.

Do you have a go to person, to clarify these questions for you?

I accommodated you in two threads, that means you limited my freedom of religious expression and speech. But you won't discuss religion with me any more because you are offended by what I have said, and yet I still gracefully accommodated you.

??????????????????????????????????????????

I have no idea what you're talking about! Gracefully? No, not so much. LOL

a reply to: Bone75

She was obviously mentally ill and not in the position of making a choice like that (she wasn't in a sane frame of mind to do that) so it should have been up to professionals to sort that out.
A very different thing than a planned abortion.

a reply to: Bone75

She wasn't threatening suicide, she was threatening to kill my son for the soul purpose of hurting me.

By stabbing herself in the stomach? That's some crazy going on there. Doctors should have been called!

Doesn't that go against everything you stand for?

What? Nope!

It is your position that if the child hasn't been born yet, then its just an insignificant fetus and the mother has every right to choose whether that fetus lives or dies.

I wouldn't choose that wording, but the woman's choice is inviolable, in my opinion.

If she had grabbed a coat hanger and locked herself in the bathroom would you still feel the same way? Should she be placed under observation for her own safety in that situation as well?

Absolutely! Why wouldn't you?

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Bone75


Your wife's tantrum/outburst/threat was not really about her feeling forced into motherhood though, was it? It was about your relationship, right? She was threatening you with suicide, taking your offspring with her.

She wasn't threatening suicide, she was threatening to kill my son for the soul purpose of hurting me.

She was, most probably,in need of mental health intervention, possibly hormone therapy. If you had called for help, she would have been hospitalized and placed under observation for her own safety.

Doesn't that go against everything you stand for? It is your position that if the child hasn't been born yet, then its just an insignificant fetus and the mother has every right to choose whether that fetus lives or dies. If she had grabbed a coat hanger and locked herself in the bathroom would you still feel the same way? Should she be placed under observation for her own safety in that situation as well?

I think people refuse to see your feelings about this matter, so let me help here.

Okay people, bone is saying he is royally ticked off at his wife for threatening to kill the son that he loves. She didn't do it because she was forced into marriage or motherhood, she did it because she wanted to hurt him emotionally and you all defend her in doing so.

Bone wants to know why his choice in the matter does not count, and yet the son is the son of his loins. That is called EMOTIONAL ABUSE, that you are defending his wife of and you are perpetuating.

This son, to bone, isn't a blob of cells, he is a SON, a CHILD. And by the way it sounds, she was being abusive toward her own son also. But bone wants to know why it is ok for women to have the choice and right to be emotionally abusive toward him and the baby. No one is answering that, you all keep saying "Defend her choice".

Is it her right when that body within her body is also part of his body? Fathers don't become fathers when they acknowledge their child exists, fathers become fathers the minute his sperm unites with her egg and the result is his and her offspring. Not just hers.

Bone wants to know why you all can't see that, when most of you have children also.

originally posted by: windword

Absolutely! Why wouldn't you?

So in the presence of legal and safe abortion, such an act is simply crazy, but you wouldn't consider it crazy if abortion were illegal right?