NJ Public School sued over "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: rickynews

The US was never under a Communist threat. It was BS sold to the people in order to hide a massive power grab.

The world has been under a Communist threat, including the U.S. and especially since WW 2.
Communism hasn't gone away. Weakened perhaps, but it certainly exists. China and Russia are good examples.

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: rickynews

The US was never under a Communist threat. It was BS sold to the people in order to hide a massive power grab.

The world has been under a Communist threat, including the U.S. and especially since WW 2.
Communism hasn't gone away. Weakened perhaps, but it certainly exists. China and Russia are good examples.

I just posted this in response to a similar allegation on another thread you've been active in, Ricky. A thread where you also accused atheism of being deeply in cahoots with, and perhaps even synonymous with, communism.

com·mu·nism
ˈkämyəˌnizəm
noun
1.
a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm
noun
1.
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

I'm having some difficulty spotting the synonymity between the two.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

No only are the two concepts not mutually exclusive, the current version of "communism" existing in countries like China or N. Korea, Vietnam etc aren't anything remotely resembling actual Communism. They're communist in name only.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: AfterInfinity

No only are the two concepts not mutually exclusive, the current version of "communism" existing in countries like China or N. Korea, Vietnam etc aren't anything remotely resembling actual Communism. They're communist in name only.

That post wasn't exactly clear. Communism and atheism are NOT mutually exclusive?

originally posted by: rickynews
a reply to: peter vlar
In 1954, the U.S. was quite threatened by the spread of Communism, specifically the Soviet Union. Communism's mantra is indeed a God-less state, where the only "god" for the people Is the State itself. Therefore, it is reasonable, understandable and quite appropriate to add "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance - as recognition that indeed, there is a God, and it is certainly Not the State.

There was never a threat of Communism spreading to the US. It would have destroyed the defense industries of the East and West simultaneously and that just wasn't going to happen. Both sides needed a rationale and boogeyman to further the interests of the Military Industrial Complex. Even Eisenhower was aware of this as evidenced by his final statement before leaving office.

Therefore, those who support removing "Under God" from the Pledge are exposing themselves of having a Communist influence , or at least, having profound Communist leanings, in the way of their misguided atheistic beliefs and their deceived ideology.

I'm sorry but that is possibly one of the most delusional statements I have seen on ATS in quite some time. Equating being an atheist with being a communist is a massive stretch of cognitive dissonance no matter how you try to paint it. The two terms are mutually exclusive and in fact I'd go so far as to say that the implication itself is rather slanderous. My disbelief in bronze age fairy tales has no impact whatsoever on my political leanings and I'm going to be ballsy enough to say that I am probably more in line with the actual message of Jesus than the vast majority of self serving Christians I've some across in the last 40 years I've crawled and groped my way across this Earth. They tried that same BS line of reasoning on me when I was in the Army. It was a pile of dung 20 years ago and smells even worse today. the only misguided belief I've seen thus far is the superiority complex of the majority of alleged Christians I've been in contact with. A decidedly very unChristlike POV.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

sorry... typing error... they ARE mutually exclusive, i.e. they've got nothing to do with each other. hasty typing and cat jumping on the keyboard don't make for quality grammar. I've made the same error about 20 times already today.

ETA: thanks, I appreciate you pointing out my folly before someone else took my intent incorrectly

a reply to: beezzer

That is complete and utter BS. "Under God" is a direct reference to the god of Abraham...(Jews, Christians, Muslims). It has no place on our money or our pledge. Not everyone here in the US believes in a higher being and some who do believe do not believe in that specific god. Not only does it alienate those who don't believe in any god or gods but also those who don't believe in the god of Abraham. In effect those references are an endorsement of a specific god.

I'll say the pledge, but I'll skip that part as it excludes me and those who disagree with who or what "god" is.

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: rickynews
a reply to: peter vlar
In 1954, the U.S. was quite threatened by the spread of Communism, specifically the Soviet Union. Communism's mantra is indeed a God-less state, where the only "god" for the people Is the State itself. Therefore, it is reasonable, understandable and quite appropriate to add "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance - as recognition that indeed, there is a God, and it is certainly Not the State.

There was never a threat of Communism spreading to the US. It would have destroyed the defense industries of the East and West simultaneously and that just wasn't going to happen. Both sides needed a rationale and boogeyman to further the interests of the Military Industrial Complex. Even Eisenhower was aware of this as evidenced by his final statement before leaving office.

Therefore, those who support removing "Under God" from the Pledge are exposing themselves of having a Communist influence , or at least, having profound Communist leanings, in the way of their misguided atheistic beliefs and their deceived ideology.

I'm sorry but that is possibly one of the most delusional statements I have seen on ATS in quite some time. Equating being an atheist with being a communist is a massive stretch of cognitive dissonance no matter how you try to paint it. The two terms are mutually exclusive and in fact I'd go so far as to say that the implication itself is rather slanderous. My disbelief in bronze age fairy tales has no impact whatsoever on my political leanings and I'm going to be ballsy enough to say that I am probably more in line with the actual message of Jesus than the vast majority of self serving Christians I've some across in the last 40 years I've crawled and groped my way across this Earth. They tried that same BS line of reasoning on me when I was in the Army. It was a pile of dung 20 years ago and smells even worse today. the only misguided belief I've seen thus far is the superiority complex of the majority of alleged Christians I've been in contact with. A decidedly very unChristlike POV.

One only needs to look at the Communist Government of China and/or the former Soviet Union, where there is (and was) little or no freedom of practicing any religion, or any recognition of God whatsoever. History demonstrates clearly that Communists are Atheists. Communists make a concerted effort to remove any and all references to God in all their local, state and national documents, up to and including the present day. There is no question about it. To deny this reality is in and of itself delusional.

a reply to: peter vlar

I appreciated your reply. It was balanced and informative.

I understand atheism and I understand the point of view of those who believe - from a personal perspective. I agree - if NJ has an opt out this seems like a pointless lawsuit. The argument would be that when opting out it makes these kids seem different and we all know how kids can be cruel to the minority (on either side). My kid also felt left out when not included on the honor roll in 3rd grade, and my niece when she had to go to reading lab every day. It's life.

We cannot silence God to all of our senses - it isn't possible. To not speak, see, or hear about it because it should be a private matter is unrealistic, and you seem to agree with this. But that is what this is an attempt to do. If it stopped here it would be fine but it won't. It would then go on to telling the military or stop fighting for "God and Country." It would go on to tell public officials to not display their own faith at anytime. It would take "so help me God" out of the courts. It won't stop.

No one will ever make everyone happy - ever. One day someone is going to say, "help fight for women's rights" and a group for shariah's law will stand up and say "stop putting these ideas into our heads." I think people walk on eggshells enough with being politically correct with identity issues - race, cultural variations, and religion. When do we say enough is enough with the nit picking.

Many of our military personnel believe in God. I am not sure people are aware that this is referring to a Christian God because I've known people of other religions who have reporting feeling comforted by this pledge. It doesn't bother me enough to override those who it may help, and I'm aware of it providing a sense of support for people during Vietnam (when it was said daily in schools and they could listen to children reciting it via broadcasts). That was long ago but is the example that comes to mind. Does it cause more harm than good? I would say no. It's just a word if one doesn't believe, and it provides a sense of protection and connection for those who do.

a reply to: rickynews

The overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God, so the minority of Americans (i.e. Atheists), do not get to dictate their belief system onto the rest of society. And make no mistake, the Atheistic view of No God is as much of a religious belief as believing that there is a God.

a reply to: rickynews

What usually is the case with so-called Atheists is "They don't believe in God ...until tragedy comes upon them...then suddenly... they won't stop pleading and begging Him"

originally posted by: rickynews
One only needs to look at the Communist Government of China and/or the former Soviet Union, where there is (and was) little or no freedom of practicing any religion, or any recognition of God whatsoever. History demonstrates clearly that Communists are Atheists. Communists make a concerted effort to remove any and all references to God in all their local, state and national documents, up to and including the present day. There is no question about it. To deny this reality is in and of itself delusional.

I never debated that communist USSR or China suppress religion. What I am debating is that is equitable with Atheists being Communists. It's like saying some blondes are female so all females are blonde. Additionally, the countries you cite are, or were, Communist in name only. the USSR was Marxist-Leninist and China was a Maoist version of Leninism. neither brand is the Communism proposed by Marx.

The overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God, so the minority of Americans (i.e. Atheists), do not get to dictate their belief system onto the rest of society. And make no mistake, the Atheistic view of No God is as much of a religious belief as believing that there is a God.

No, the constitution is the law of the land and set in stone barring amending it so thankfully the constitution and SCOTUS disagree with your in that regard. Just curious, why are you so threatened by non believers? it seems a bit pedantic. lest I digress, let me refer you to some SCOTUS rulings pertaining to separation of church and state.

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71, 333 U.S. 203 (1948)
Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)
Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional

Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980)
Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

Wallace v. Jaffree, 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)
State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.

Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)
Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.

While none of these rulings pertain specifically to the particular phrase from the Pledge of Allegiance, they certainly have laid the legal groundwork for an astute attorney or the ACLU to file a brief in opposition to it which may be the true basis for the suit filed in NJ. As I've said repeatedly in this thread, because the NJ state constitution has an opt out clause the entirety of the suit is at this point frivolous and a bit ridiculous. You really need to take a deep breath and stop being so frightened of the evil atheists because as you state, the majority of Americans are of some religious persuasion and its not going anywhere in the near future. With that said you also shouldn't be so surprised when someone stands up for their constitutional rights and calls the pot AND kettle black.

What usually is the case with so-called Atheists is "They don't believe in God ...until tragedy comes upon them...then suddenly... they won't stop pleading and begging Him" .

Care to provide a citation for this ingenious bit of OpEd? The only god I pray to is myself. You've got a seriously deranged bizarre world view of Atheists, how they think and how they operate and none of it is anywhere near the mark. But please... carry on, I'm rather enjoying the humor that trolls provide when I feed them too much.

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: rickynews
a reply to: peter vlar
In 1954, the U.S. was quite threatened by the spread of Communism, specifically the Soviet Union. Communism's mantra is indeed a God-less state, where the only "god" for the people Is the State itself. Therefore, it is reasonable, understandable and quite appropriate to add "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance - as recognition that indeed, there is a God, and it is certainly Not the State.

There was never a threat of Communism spreading to the US. It would have destroyed the defense industries of the East and West simultaneously and that just wasn't going to happen. Both sides needed a rationale and boogeyman to further the interests of the Military Industrial Complex. Even Eisenhower was aware of this as evidenced by his final statement before leaving office.

Therefore, those who support removing "Under God" from the Pledge are exposing themselves of having a Communist influence , or at least, having profound Communist leanings, in the way of their misguided atheistic beliefs and their deceived ideology.

I'm sorry but that is possibly one of the most delusional statements I have seen on ATS in quite some time. Equating being an atheist with being a communist is a massive stretch of cognitive dissonance no matter how you try to paint it. The two terms are mutually exclusive and in fact I'd go so far as to say that the implication itself is rather slanderous. My disbelief in bronze age fairy tales has no impact whatsoever on my political leanings and I'm going to be ballsy enough to say that I am probably more in line with the actual message of Jesus than the vast majority of self serving Christians I've some across in the last 40 years I've crawled and groped my way across this Earth. They tried that same BS line of reasoning on me when I was in the Army. It was a pile of dung 20 years ago and smells even worse today. the only misguided belief I've seen thus far is the superiority complex of the majority of alleged Christians I've been in contact with. A decidedly very unChristlike POV.

One only needs to look at the Communist Government of China and/or the former Soviet Union, where there is (and was) little or no freedom of practicing any religion, or any recognition of God whatsoever. History demonstrates clearly that Communists are Atheists. Communists make a concerted effort to remove any and all references to God in all their local, state and national documents, up to and including the present day. There is no question about it. To deny this reality is in and of itself delusional.

Correlation =/= causation.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

apparently it does if you don't believe in magic. Really irritated that I'm going to have to change my voter registration card now.

Seems to me that this provides a tremendous opportunity for these parents to start a dialogue about religion and religious rights. Figuring out where you stand on religion and your own personal beliefs is a huge part of growing as a person. I guess these parents don't really want to have this conversation with their children that's why they make such a big deal about it? Seems to me that for anyone this is a big enough deal to file a lawsuit about, they would love to have more examples and reasons to speak to their kids about it.

a reply to: rickynews

I never said the pledge why don't they just not say the pledge?

Just ignore the atheists, that's the smart thing to do. Let them complain who cares? Not I.

originally posted by: Peekingsquatch
a reply to: rickynews

There is no issue with it. They are just trying to pervert the laws because we are letting so much P.C. crap happen anymore, and they believe they can make money off it, larger than their unemployment checks.

I am considered aetheist, and there is nothing offensive about it, except the "Jihadist-aetheists" that are un-american. If they have an issue with it, there are plenty of other countries they can move to. Maybe if they got a job they wouldn't have so much time on their hands.

I do believe in God, but for someone to say all atheists are communist is absolutely ridiculous. I wish I could apologize for statements like that. All I can do is say I believe in freedom of religion and that includes atheists, I am sure the majority of atheists are just as patriotic as most religious Americans, we all need to stand together for our constitutional rights or we have nothing. Unfortunately some people abuse freedom of speech.

a reply to: govmule

" Unfortunately some people abuse freedom of speech. " I couldn't have said this better.

originally posted by: govmule

originally posted by: Peekingsquatch
a reply to: rickynews

There is no issue with it. They are just trying to pervert the laws because we are letting so much P.C. crap happen anymore, and they believe they can make money off it, larger than their unemployment checks.

I am considered aetheist, and there is nothing offensive about it, except the "Jihadist-aetheists" that are un-american. If they have an issue with it, there are plenty of other countries they can move to. Maybe if they got a job they wouldn't have so much time on their hands.

I do believe in God, but for someone to say all atheists are communist is absolutely ridiculous. I wish I could apologize for statements like that. All I can do is say I believe in freedom of religion and that includes atheists, I am sure the majority of atheists are just as patriotic as most religious Americans, we all need to stand together for our constitutional rights or we have nothing. Unfortunately some people abuse freedom of speech.

To clarify, I said Communists are Atheists, as history indicates. Whether all Atheists are Communists, is not something that I have said, as I do not have any historical facts to back up, therefore I am not suggesting that.

originally posted by: rickynews
To clarify, I said Communists are Atheists, as history indicates. Whether all Atheists are Communists, is not something that I have said, as I do not have any historical facts to back up, therefore I am not suggesting that.

that's some super sweet backpedaling but completely untrue. you said this on page 7-

originally posted by: rickynews
a reply to: peter vlar

it is reasonable, understandable and quite appropriate to add "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance - as recognition that indeed, there is a God, and it is certainly Not the State.

Therefore, those who support removing "Under God" from the Pledge are exposing themselves of having a Communist influence , or at least, having profound Communist leanings, in the way of their misguided atheistic beliefs and their deceived ideology.