America: The cursed burnt offering for the age to come.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


The multitude holding palm branches are the Resurrected Church after the Rapture that is described in the 5th Seal. (Note:The Seals 1-4 present a summary of historical trends of ALL of fallen-human history. The 5th Seal depicts the resurrection of Church martyrs, and the 6th Seal is Jesus' return at the end of the tribulation. The 7th Seal is an intermission that takes us back to the beginning of the Tribulation that starts in detail with the 1st Trumpet.)The white robes are Resurrected bodies of light like that of Jesus at His transfiguration.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by Maigret

 

That's because the website has an agenda, as most Christian websites do. You have to look between the lines. Look at all the verses where that word is. The word, before, in those verses does not require being in the same location. Hence, the ones with palm branches are before the throne, but far from God physically. According to the Bible, those with palm branches are here on the Earth.

Where in the Bible does it say that those mentioned in Revelation with palm branches are specifically here on earth? Or is this just you, reading between the lines?

People were waving palm leaves when the Messiah entered Jerusalem, yes, we can take it that was on earth. But that was an event in the past. The time when those who have come through the Tribulation, when most of them will have been killed and are dead, and yet will be waving palm leaves is still to come, and therefore it is in the future.

And just because a newspaper, for instance, has the word 'murder' in it a number of times, does not mean that all the mentions of this word are about the same event or place.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

 

The multitude holding palm branches are the Resurrected Church after the Rapture that is described in the 5th Seal. (Note:The Seals 1-4 present a summary of historical trends of ALL of fallen-human history. The 5th Seal depicts the resurrection of Church martyrs, and the 6th Seal is Jesus' return at the end of the tribulation. The 7th Seal is an intermission that takes us back to the beginning of the Tribulation that starts in detail with the 1st Trumpet.)The white robes are Resurrected bodies of light like that of Jesus at His transfiguration.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls, all run concurrently... as can be seen by all the same endings.

The Seventh Seal: Revelation 8:5 'And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.'

The Seventh Trumpet: Revelation 11:19 'And the Temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His Temple the Ark of His Testament [the Covenant] : and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.'

The Seventh Bowl: Revelation 16:18 'And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.'

All these loud noises, thunders, lightings, hail [of hot ashes and pumice stones], and a great earthquake are descriptions of the results of massive volcanic action that will forever change the geography of this planet by removing islands and flattening mountains, as seen in Revelation 16:20, which says in Rev 16:20 'And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.'

_________________________

Revelation 8:6, after the final Seal makes it seem as though the Trumpets start after the Seventh Seal, but this is only because of the way the Chapters and Verses in the Bible have been divided.

'The person credited with dividing the Bible into chapters is Stephen Langton, the Archbishop of Canterbury from 1207-1228. While Langton’s isn’t the only organizational scheme that was devised, it is his chapter breakdown that has survived. But while chapters are a useful organizational tool, the ability to refer to specific phrases within those chapters would make the system even more usable. Robert Stephanus (aka Robert Estienne) created a verse numbering system in the mid-16th century and was the first person to print a Bible with verse numbers in each chapter.' Quoted source: www.biblegateway.com...

reply to post by Maigret


I disagree. The seals are a 'movie trailer' of human history ending with the return of Christ. The 7th seal transitions into the next act. The 1st trumpet starts the tribulation, and everything is chronological from that point on.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Maigret

 

I disagree. The seals are a 'movie trailer' of human history ending with the return of Christ. The 7th seal transitions into the next act. The 1st trumpet starts the tribulation, and everything is chronological from that point on.

You're entitled to your opinion, BELIEVERpriest, but could you give us some Scripture on that?

You say that 'the 1st trumpet starts the tribulation', so how would you explain that the Tribulation is already in progress as described in the Fifth Seal in Revelation 6:9-11 'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.'

Or how the Day of Wrath is described in both the 6th Seal, Revelation 6:17 'For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?' and 6th Bowl in '... great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.'

Or how 1Corinthians 15:52 describes the 7th and last Trumpet as 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the [this last] trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.' Isn't this the Christian version of the Rapture?

This is echoed in Matthew 24:31 'And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.' Note: this is [I]'after the Tribulation', as specified in Matthew 24:29.

With your version of events being chronological, the Thunders and Bowls are still to come...

reply to post by Maigret


I already explained my stance two posts ago...the one you initially replied to. The four horse men are the four angels that patrol and regulate peace vs war, famine vs prosperity, disease vs health, and the mortality rate. They are seen in the Old Testament in Zech 6:1-8. The four horsemen have been operating on earth since the fall of Adam.

The 5th seal is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. In this case, it is only showing the resurrection of the Church martyrs in heaven. This marks the beginning of the Tribulation. The white robes represent resurrection bodies like that of Jesus at His transfiguration. They were asking how much longer the judgement would be delayed, because the tribulation had not started yet. We will see this crowd gathered with the rest of the Church in heaven holding palm branches in Rev 7:9-17. Rev 7:14 states that they "came away from the tribulation", not "out of" that is a mistranslation (see Rev 3:10 "keep thee FROM the hour of temptation" for context).

The 6th Seal is the return of Jesus at the END of the tribulation (Mat 24:30). This is the shaking of the whole earth. The shaking of the whole earth happened at the Great Flood, and can only happen once more at the END of the Tribulation (see Matt 24:36-39 and Haggai 2:6-9 in conjunction for context.)

The 7th seal is a transition from the summary of Human history to the actuall beginning of the Tribulation. From the 1st Trumpet on, the events are chronological.

The Last Trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not the same as the 7th trumpet. It is a depiction of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture at the Feast of Trumpets. You cant line the 7 Trumpets of Revelation up with the feast of trumpets, they are 7 separate events.

reply to post by Maigret


A lot of times the way to know what a word (whether in ancient Greek or Hebrew) in a verse really means (besides what the faceless committee that heads the translation of the Bible you're reading wants you to think it means) is to look up the occurrence of that word in other verses. It's sort of a sneaky way to find out for yourself what the Bible writer intended that word to mean, but it's an accurate way nonetheless. I have an atheist friend that I correspond with every so often (who happens to be an unofficial Bible expert), and I'm sure that he would agree with me about that meaning of the verse. He has an atheist agenda, so he himself focuses on other parts of the Bible that may or may not disprove themselves, but based on his reasonableness, I'm almost positive that he would say the same thing. And he doesn't even believe that the Bible is from God.

I'm not really interested in continuing this conversation with you (it's kind of pointless at this point since we're going back and forth), but I'm just trying to open your mind to other possibilities.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Don't Christians realize that Jesus never demanded to be worshiped? Reverence =/= worship, I side with the Muslims on this topic. For all they know Jesus could send them to hell for worshiping him.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


I thought all the seals would be opened in a relatively short time-frame. Maybe 2-20 years. Some common Christian perspectives don't make much sense to me. I think it's going to be way more real. The realest.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Hope your heart is prepared as well or it will be extremely painful.

reply to post by On7a7higher7plane


Jesus directed worship to Himself. Read John 15:1-14, its pretty obvious. There are less than 18 months left before the time of Jacob's Trouble falls upon the whole earth. My heart, soul and spirit are ready. Believe that the Son of God died to purchase you from the penalty of sin, and you will be prepared too. Do not let your heart decieve you. There is no Eternal Life but through the redemptive work of Jesus on the cross.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

There are less than 18 months left before the time of Jacob's Trouble falls upon the whole earth. My heart, soul and spirit are ready.

No man knows the hour... Yet you know the month...

Ain't that nifty... *sigh*

You Christians never learn

reply to post by Akragon


If you knew the scriptures, you would recognize the fallacy in your sarcastic remark. Im tired of constantly having to re-addressing the mis-conception of the "no man knows the day or hour" statement. I'll give you a hint: Read all of Matthew 24 & 25. You'll either get it or you won't.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Akragon

 

If you knew the scriptures, you would recognize the fallacy in your sarcastic remark. Im tired of constantly having to re-addressing the mis-conception of the "no man knows the day or hour" statement. I'll give you a hint: Read all of Matthew 24 & 25. You'll either get it or you won't.

I would hardly say you are anyone to lecture me on scripture... 18 months from now when nothing happens...

And of course if you happen to still be here... You'll be getting a huge "I told you" from me personally

I'll be marking it down...that's October of next year... right around Halloween ironically... Good luck

Oh and try to realise Christians have been predicting the tribulation for over a thousand years...

but im sure you have it down to the minute

reply to post by Akragon


I said less than 18 months. Thats 9/16/2016 at 1:54 pm Est. Go ahead, mark your calendar, set your cell phone alarm. We will see. This has been confirmed by the prophetic visions of Iris Nasreen, the Bible's meteric syllable pattern, and a calendar that is 5,248 years old to the year. Hell, even Pope Gregory the 13th and the esoteric societies are expecting this date to throw the world power completely into their hands. Im sorry that so many people cried wolf, but that doesnt make me wrong by default.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by Maigret

 

A lot of times the way to know what a word (whether in ancient Greek or Hebrew) in a verse really means (besides what the faceless committee that heads the translation of the Bible you're reading wants you to think it means) is to look up the occurrence of that word in other verses. It's sort of a sneaky way to find out for yourself what the Bible writer intended that word to mean, but it's an accurate way nonetheless.

Actually its not a "sneaky way". It called exegesis or hermeneutics.

Hermeneutics

One fine tool for the student an be found at Blue Letter Bible. It allows one to see all the passages that use a word, the different Greek words that are translated the same in English, ect ect. A fine tool.

If you use this you wont have to consult a faceless committee.....or an atheist on a bent, or even your own presuppositions and opinions.

Akragon

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Akragon

 

If you knew the scriptures, you would recognize the fallacy in your sarcastic remark. Im tired of constantly having to re-addressing the mis-conception of the "no man knows the day or hour" statement. I'll give you a hint: Read all of Matthew 24 & 25. You'll either get it or you won't.

I would hardly say you are anyone to lecture me on scripture...

Oh wow Akragon I just took a manners and decorum hit for something not even half this snarky.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by defcon5

 

We were debating this idea about the 144,000. What is your interpretation of what the 144,000 stands for?

Sorry for the late response I missed your post somehow.
The 144K is exactly what the bible say they are, the “first fruits”, those who will be closest to Gods throne, and serve as his temple priests. They are virgin Jewish men who have accepted Christ, and they come from all throughout history. So for example many of your Patriarchs would be among the 144K.

The problem I most often encounter with this verse is people who fail to read it context of the surrounding verses, and think that the 144K are the only folks who make it to heaven. That is not what the bible says, there is a great multitude that make it to heaven, but these 144K are Gods 'elite' selection. If I had to venture a guess, here is the part I would assume you're really asking about:

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. - Revelation 7

This is mentioned in the verse following the list of tribes of the 144K, though for some inexplicable reason everyone seems to miss it. This 'multitude' are all the other people who are saved through acceptance of Christ besides the 144K.

Hope that answers your question.

Actually this brings up another good point.

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

Right here the bible itself is telling you that the tribulation is not a 7 year period, as there is no third group. So in 70ad, within a generation of Christ's death, the Temple was destroyed and the animal sacrifice was taken away. These folks who come 'out of the tribulation' would be all the people who received forgiveness through Christ, and have 'washed their robes' of sin. They are the Christians who come out of the 'age of the church'. So here your being told that the 'age of the church' is in fact the 'tribulation', in other words, the end has been going on since 70ad and continues to go on until Christ's return.

defcon5
Actually this brings up another good point.

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

Right here the bible itself is telling you that the tribulation is not a 7 year period, as there is no third group. So in 70ad, within a generation of Christ's death, the Temple was destroyed and the animal sacrifice was taken away. These folks who come 'out of the tribulation' would be all the people who received forgiveness through Christ, and have 'washed their robes' of sin. They are the Christians who come out of the 'age of the church'. So here your being told that the 'age of the church' is in fact the 'tribulation', in other words, the end has been going on since 70ad and continues to go on until Christ's return.

Actually, I address the issue of the two 7 Year Tribulations in this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think that you might at least find it interesting.

I still contend that the multitude holding palm branches are the resurrected Church that "came away from the Tribulation", not "out of" (see Rev 3:10 for context).