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America: The cursed burnt offering for the age to come.
page: 5share:
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
The next most important thing to know is that the “Beast” and “Horns” mean the same thing in both Daniel and Revelation. John well knew the meaning of these symbols from Daniel and he used them in the same way when he wrote. Additionally the Beasts relate to the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
Beasts = Kingdoms, the world “superpowers” of each biblical age.
Horns = Positions and divisions of power.
Crowns = Royalty.
So if you go to Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, you have:
Head of Gold: Babylon
Chest of silver: Medo-Persian Empire
Thighs of Brass: Greece
Legs of Iron: Rome
Feet of Clay and Iron: Present world
Then later in Daniel's Dream:
Lion with Eagles wings: Babylon
Bear with one side raised up: Medo-Persian Empire
Leopard with four wings: Greece
Beast with iron teeth and 10 horns: Rome
The Little Horn: The station of the Pontifex Maximus or the Holy Pontiff. Notice that he is a “power' and he has no “crown”, but rather has eyes, such as the “holy see”.
The description of the “little horn”:
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
The Duties of the Pontifex maximus:
1) Set both the calendar and religious calendar.
2) Set and enforce Jus Divinum or “divine law”.
3) Punish those who broke divine law, aka heretics.
4) As Emperors and later as Popes they “speak” with divine authority.
5) From the time that the popes were given full authority under Justinian until it was taken away under Napoleon was right around 1260 years.
The Pontifex Maximus was the head of the Roman College of Pontiffs, the head of the Roman Pagan Churches. Usually the title was held by the Emperors themselves, and later the title switched hands to the Popes, which is why they are still called “Pontiffs”. This is also why all our calendars have either been set by Popes or Emperors.
So from here lets go forward into Revelation...
We see the two beasts, one comes from the sea (the sea of nations and peoples, the known world of the time), and the other from the land (a sparse area). The first is a compilation of all the beasts in Daniel, and is Rome. Rome used to ingest all the pagan stuff that came from the empires before it. It is given a deadly wound when it is removed from political power in 1798 by Napoleon in his Italian Campaign. The second beast comes into existence roughly around the same time, out of a sparsely populated area of the world. The US was officially recognized as a sovereign nation by the Treaty of Paris in 1782.
Here is what John Wesley, head of the Methodist Church, wrote in 1754 regarding the rise of the second beast:
"He is not yet come, tho he cannot be far off, for he is to appear at the end of the forty two months of the first beast."
So how is the last beast described:
11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name
Lets just start out with the obvious.
Its supposed to be a Christian country that comes out of a sparse area of the world. It has a division of power (two horns) and no royalty (no crowns). It is based on Rome, and has many of the same systems, ideals, symbols, etc... The whole world would “wonder” after it, and it would even call down fire from the sky (first nuclear testing, bombs, etc). Finally it would be the last superpower that would cause all the people of the earth to receive the “mark”. Personally I believe that mark to be the international biometric Id system that is being forced around the world today, in this country its called the Real ID Act, and was part of the recommendations under the “Patriot Act”. The US was also instrumental in the setting up of a worldwide Central Banking system, and the United Nations.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by ketsuko
I'm not allowed to give the skeptic's view of things? We all just have to postulate with the given premise that the Book of Revelation is a true account? I wasn't aware that there were rules to what I can and cannot believe before I click on a thread. My bad.
I happen to like debating with religious people. Bring some reality to all the magic of the bible. Don't get upset because I happen to be a fervent disbeliever in the bible.
I'm not allowed to give the skeptic's view of things? We all just have to postulate with the given premise that the Book of Revelation is a true account? I wasn't aware that there were rules to what I can and cannot believe before I click on a thread. My bad.
I happen to like debating with religious people. Bring some reality to all the magic of the bible. Don't get upset because I happen to be a fervent disbeliever in the bible.
edit on 28-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)
tsingtao
Utnapisjtim
brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest
But, according to scriptural reasoning, why would God give natural Israel a chance if they rejected the Messiah?
Jesus never seem to have wanted to be a messiah/king in the first place, it was the later Church who turned him into the Christ. Jesus just wanted to be left alone and go about with his rabbi'ing and making doors (walk through walls) and boats (walking on water) and telling riddles:
John 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
And in the Apocalypse Jesus' heir is the Christ. Jesus will be his Father/God:
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
edit on 27-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: flesh to the boneedit on 27-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: +riddlesedit on 27-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Rev quote
you can't be serious.
lol!
Jesus knew his mission on earth.
DUH! ya think?
where do u people get this stuff?
u think it up all on your own? talk to a rabbi or a priest.
Jesus' mission? Jesus was crucified because of the whole messiah-thing. Nailed to a tree like a Roman trophy, as if to say: "This is what happens to anyone threatening Roman supremacy in Judea." Jesus wasn't stupid. He didn't have a deathwish. As far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been a messiah in Israel/Judah since Solomon.
reply to post by Krazysh0t
Actually the problem isn't that the prophecies are vague, its that people don't research how to really read them. Most have studied through authors such as Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, the “Left Behind” series, etc... rather then reading the actual dry, but more scholarly works such as the Horae Apocalypticae. The truth is that eschatology is more “History channel” than “Scifi channel” though most want the Scifi version as its more sensationalist. In reality the prophecies of Daniel are very specific, which is why they have often been used as an excuse to date the writing of Daniel to a later date.
Actually the problem isn't that the prophecies are vague, its that people don't research how to really read them. Most have studied through authors such as Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, the “Left Behind” series, etc... rather then reading the actual dry, but more scholarly works such as the Horae Apocalypticae. The truth is that eschatology is more “History channel” than “Scifi channel” though most want the Scifi version as its more sensationalist. In reality the prophecies of Daniel are very specific, which is why they have often been used as an excuse to date the writing of Daniel to a later date.
reply to post by defcon5
So that is the end all be all interpretation of these prophecies? No one else could deeply over analyze those passages and come to a completely different conclusion? Your link sure is an impressive body of work, but then again so is the complete works of Shakespeare. So what makes it true?
So that is the end all be all interpretation of these prophecies? No one else could deeply over analyze those passages and come to a completely different conclusion? Your link sure is an impressive body of work, but then again so is the complete works of Shakespeare. So what makes it true?
edit on 28-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Krazysh0t
Daniel was always sent an angel to explain his prophecies, and many his prophecies have already come true. Again, so many had come true even by the time of Rome that it has been used as a tool to re-date the writing of Daniel to later times by some modern scholars. As an example, his description of Alexander the Great is one of the most commonly quoted prophecies that is used to state it was written after Alexander's time.
As to why to believe that style of interpretation, well... Because there are only three ways to interpret it, and two of those ways both came from the Council of Trent, as part of the Protestant Counter Reformation, via the Jesuit Order of the Roman Catholic Church:
Futurism: Written by Jesuit Francisco Ribera in 1585 under the title “In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij”.
Preterism: Written by Jesuit Luis del Alcázar as written in his 1614 commentary Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi.
Their only purpose was to deflect away criticism of the Pope as being mentioned in prophecy.
The third and final way to interpret the prophecies is:
Historicism: Started with Martin Luther and was continued on by other protestant reformers such as John Calvin, John Wesley, and even Sir Issac Newton.
The Horae Apocalypticae compares the three schools in what is considered the most comprehensive writing on the topic, and comes to the conclusion that Historicism is in fact the proper way to interpret them. The problem is that most DON'T KNOW HISTORICISM, they only know Futurism, which is why you keep getting all this guessing, speculating, and wrong interpretations.
There are two very prominent groups who want to ensure that Futurism remains the leading style of interpretation in the protestant denominations: 1) the Roman Catholic Church, and 2) those who want to see a rebuilt Israel and Temple. They make sure that only Futurism gets all the “press”, which is why its what you see on TV, movies, and in most books.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Daniel was always sent an angel to explain his prophecies, and many his prophecies have already come true. Again, so many had come true even by the time of Rome that it has been used as a tool to re-date the writing of Daniel to later times by some modern scholars. As an example, his description of Alexander the Great is one of the most commonly quoted prophecies that is used to state it was written after Alexander's time.
As to why to believe that style of interpretation, well... Because there are only three ways to interpret it, and two of those ways both came from the Council of Trent, as part of the Protestant Counter Reformation, via the Jesuit Order of the Roman Catholic Church:
Futurism: Written by Jesuit Francisco Ribera in 1585 under the title “In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij”.
Preterism: Written by Jesuit Luis del Alcázar as written in his 1614 commentary Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi.
Their only purpose was to deflect away criticism of the Pope as being mentioned in prophecy.
The third and final way to interpret the prophecies is:
Historicism: Started with Martin Luther and was continued on by other protestant reformers such as John Calvin, John Wesley, and even Sir Issac Newton.
The Horae Apocalypticae compares the three schools in what is considered the most comprehensive writing on the topic, and comes to the conclusion that Historicism is in fact the proper way to interpret them. The problem is that most DON'T KNOW HISTORICISM, they only know Futurism, which is why you keep getting all this guessing, speculating, and wrong interpretations.
There are two very prominent groups who want to ensure that Futurism remains the leading style of interpretation in the protestant denominations: 1) the Roman Catholic Church, and 2) those who want to see a rebuilt Israel and Temple. They make sure that only Futurism gets all the “press”, which is why its what you see on TV, movies, and in most books.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
edit on 3/28/2014 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by defcon5
To me, all three of those interpretations read as equally valid (and therefore invalid). Since I hadn't heard of Edward Bishop Elliott before, I did some research on him. EBE, was a historicist and premillenial. It is no surprise that the book that he authored that critiqued the three prevailing interpretations of the time ended up supporting his world view. I can find just as many cases that say that the other two world views are more correct. And I did do that, there are quite a few. All of it is fishy to me because it relies on supernatural events that defy the laws of physics to transpire and destroy ONE tiny world in the vast sea of the universe.
There are less significant events that destroy larger chunks of the universe transpiring all the time. We could get hit by a gamma ray burst and sterilize the planet. A wondering black hole could come by and eat our solar system. There is all sorts of craziness that could kill the world that DON'T rely on angels and demons waging an epic battle of all time to decide the fate of our world, which I must stress is a tiny blip in the vastness of our galaxy (let alone the universe as a whole). Science shows more and more everyday that we (and our planet) are truly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Why do Christians think that the laws that DEFINE how the universe works need to be bent or broken to eradicate a species or all life on a measly speck? We could nuke the world tomorrow, and any life on Mars (if there is life) wouldn't care or even notice, let alone a planet orbiting some distant star.
Apparently God is so fed up with us that he doesn't want us to ever achieve space travel and explore this marvelous beauty called the universe. Nope, we are doomed to spend our days as a species from birth to death on this rock. God plans on eradicating life on the planet before we can get out there. Don't fight it, it's been preordained. We are supposed to be special in God's eyes, yet we aren't special enough to see the universe...
To me, all three of those interpretations read as equally valid (and therefore invalid). Since I hadn't heard of Edward Bishop Elliott before, I did some research on him. EBE, was a historicist and premillenial. It is no surprise that the book that he authored that critiqued the three prevailing interpretations of the time ended up supporting his world view. I can find just as many cases that say that the other two world views are more correct. And I did do that, there are quite a few. All of it is fishy to me because it relies on supernatural events that defy the laws of physics to transpire and destroy ONE tiny world in the vast sea of the universe.
There are less significant events that destroy larger chunks of the universe transpiring all the time. We could get hit by a gamma ray burst and sterilize the planet. A wondering black hole could come by and eat our solar system. There is all sorts of craziness that could kill the world that DON'T rely on angels and demons waging an epic battle of all time to decide the fate of our world, which I must stress is a tiny blip in the vastness of our galaxy (let alone the universe as a whole). Science shows more and more everyday that we (and our planet) are truly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Why do Christians think that the laws that DEFINE how the universe works need to be bent or broken to eradicate a species or all life on a measly speck? We could nuke the world tomorrow, and any life on Mars (if there is life) wouldn't care or even notice, let alone a planet orbiting some distant star.
Apparently God is so fed up with us that he doesn't want us to ever achieve space travel and explore this marvelous beauty called the universe. Nope, we are doomed to spend our days as a species from birth to death on this rock. God plans on eradicating life on the planet before we can get out there. Don't fight it, it's been preordained. We are supposed to be special in God's eyes, yet we aren't special enough to see the universe...
edit on 28-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)
reply to post by defcon5
Abraham matured 54 years before the end of his age. The temple had 40 years from Jesus death left on its clock. Therefore, 54-40=14 years. Since Jesus died 7 years early, 7 of those left over 14 years were the tribulation of Nero's time, and the final 7 years are yet to be fulfilled.
I now nobody understands what I just said, but the biblical timeline is hidden in the metering of the syllable pattern of the hebrew and greek texts of the bible. It is an exact science.
The subject of the hebrew/greek meter is an entirely different subject, but you can find some details here:
(I suggest Christians use 1 John 1:9 to refresh your thinking before examining the following data.)
www.brainout.net...
The tribulation is a future event. The rapture is an authentic doctrine of the bible. It was not invented in the 1800's as many like to think.
Edit:
I would also like to state that my view is not that America is in prophecy, but that there is a conspiracy to destroy America in preparation for prophecy.
Abraham matured 54 years before the end of his age. The temple had 40 years from Jesus death left on its clock. Therefore, 54-40=14 years. Since Jesus died 7 years early, 7 of those left over 14 years were the tribulation of Nero's time, and the final 7 years are yet to be fulfilled.
I now nobody understands what I just said, but the biblical timeline is hidden in the metering of the syllable pattern of the hebrew and greek texts of the bible. It is an exact science.
The subject of the hebrew/greek meter is an entirely different subject, but you can find some details here:
(I suggest Christians use 1 John 1:9 to refresh your thinking before examining the following data.)
www.brainout.net...
The tribulation is a future event. The rapture is an authentic doctrine of the bible. It was not invented in the 1800's as many like to think.
Edit:
I would also like to state that my view is not that America is in prophecy, but that there is a conspiracy to destroy America in preparation for prophecy.
edit on 28-3-2014 by BELIEVERpriest because: added text
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
Jesus was called the Lamb of God by John the Baptist. That title is associated with an atoning sacrifice.
Jesus was called the Lamb of God by John the Baptist. That title is associated with an atoning sacrifice.
defcon5
reply to post by Krazysh0t
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Daniel was always sent an angel to explain his prophecies, and many his prophecies have already come true. Again, so many had come true even by the time of Rome that it has been used as a tool to re-date the writing of Daniel to later times by some modern scholars. As an example, his description of Alexander the Great is one of the most commonly quoted prophecies that is used to state it was written after Alexander's time.
As to why to believe that style of interpretation, well... Because there are only three ways to interpret it, and two of those ways both came from the Council of Trent, as part of the Protestant Counter Reformation, via the Jesuit Order of the Roman Catholic Church:
Futurism: Written by Jesuit Francisco Ribera in 1585 under the title “In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij”.
Preterism: Written by Jesuit Luis del Alcázar as written in his 1614 commentary Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi.
Their only purpose was to deflect away criticism of the Pope as being mentioned in prophecy.
The third and final way to interpret the prophecies is:
Historicism: Started with Martin Luther and was continued on by other protestant reformers such as John Calvin, John Wesley, and even Sir Issac Newton.
The Horae Apocalypticae compares the three schools in what is considered the most comprehensive writing on the topic, and comes to the conclusion that Historicism is in fact the proper way to interpret them. The problem is that most DON'T KNOW HISTORICISM, they only know Futurism, which is why you keep getting all this guessing, speculating, and wrong interpretations.
There are two very prominent groups who want to ensure that Futurism remains the leading style of interpretation in the protestant denominations: 1) the Roman Catholic Church, and 2) those who want to see a rebuilt Israel and Temple. They make sure that only Futurism gets all the “press”, which is why its what you see on TV, movies, and in most books.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
edit on 3/28/2014 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)
You forgot Sod. The allegorical/symbolic/spiritual.
BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
Jesus was called the Lamb of God by John the Baptist. That title is associated with an atoning sacrifice.
Leave human sacrifice to Molock and see that it's deceit. Our God who is Love doesnot expect, demand or have any use in human sacrifice. Or any sacrifice for that matter. The Lamb of God was the Son of Adam. You don't want to mess with him. A single sword in his direction and seven fiery angels' lances will be pointed right back. Not a good idea for a sacrifice at all, it would not atone for anything. It's not a riddle or a sacrifice involving some carpenter's son of royal blood being murdered on behalf of a drunken angry mob. Besides, sheep does not read or command armies or found cities of astronomical proportions. Cats do that
edit on 28-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Syntax and meaning
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
Apples and oranges. The sacrifices to Moloch were involuntary and unclean (sinful). Jesus willingly died. That is why we came down from Heaven to be incarnated as a man. He was sinless, so the sacrifice was clean. He knew that Judas would hand Him over for execution and did nothing to defend Himself. He didnt even resist arrest. He willingly died to pay for our sins. That was the plan revealed in the Law of spotless lamb sacrifice.
Apples and oranges. The sacrifices to Moloch were involuntary and unclean (sinful). Jesus willingly died. That is why we came down from Heaven to be incarnated as a man. He was sinless, so the sacrifice was clean. He knew that Judas would hand Him over for execution and did nothing to defend Himself. He didnt even resist arrest. He willingly died to pay for our sins. That was the plan revealed in the Law of spotless lamb sacrifice.
BELIEVERpriest
Jesus willingly died.
What is life worth if you have to sacrifice it? Both apples and oranges apply. Are you even reading what you write? You say it's OK to kill a man if he wants to die and that God and humanity benefit from it. Wouldn't a better approach be to shout "DON'T JUMP!" and then call the fire squad right away?
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
What is life worth if you live it rejecting the sacrifice that brings eternal life. Jesus is our creator. He died for His creation. Would you not willingly die for your children if the cirrcumstances called for it? Jesus knew that the Pharisees wanted Him dead, they saught to stone Him multiple times. He knew that Judas would deliver Him to His execution, and willfully let it happen. He died so that we could die to sin and be resurrected in Him. That is how He (our God) expressed His love.
What is life worth if you live it rejecting the sacrifice that brings eternal life. Jesus is our creator. He died for His creation. Would you not willingly die for your children if the cirrcumstances called for it? Jesus knew that the Pharisees wanted Him dead, they saught to stone Him multiple times. He knew that Judas would deliver Him to His execution, and willfully let it happen. He died so that we could die to sin and be resurrected in Him. That is how He (our God) expressed His love.
reply to post by defcon5
We were debating this idea about the 144,000. What is your interpretation of what the 144,000 stands for?
We were debating this idea about the 144,000. What is your interpretation of what the 144,000 stands for?
edit on 28-3-2014 by brazenalderpadrescorpio because: (no reason given)
BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
Jesus is our creator.
[irony]Yeah, let's go kill him, you can see he wants it. He's the perfect sacrifice! Let's nail him to a tree and ridd us of all our misery![/irony]
Can't you see that this is wrong? The kind of magic you discribe is dark and diabolic.
edit on 28-3-2014 by Utnapisjtim because:
Majick
Krazysh0t
reply to post by ketsuko
I'm not allowed to give the skeptic's view of things? We all just have to postulate with the given premise that the Book of Revelation is a true account? I wasn't aware that there were rules to what I can and cannot believe before I click on a thread. My bad.
I happen to like debating with religious people. Bring some reality to all the magic of the bible. Don't get upset because I happen to be a fervent disbeliever in the bible.edit on 28-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)
You can be a skeptic, but there is no real debate when your opening premise is "it's all fake." You have to allow, at least for the sake of mental exercise, the possibility.
There is a difference between the person who says "I don't believe, but for the sake of debate, let's say ..." and the person who's automatic default is "It's all fake and fairy tales. So no it's not possible." You can work with the first position and have a discussion. The second position allows no possibility for discussion because it's closed off from the get-go.
I don't have any problem with you discounting all religion, but I do have a problem when you tell people to leave religion out of threads where you feel it has no place and then come to threads where religion is the central premise and tell us it has no place.
reply to post by defcon5
I think the Real ID has to be something more permanent to qualify as a mark, but we have the technology for it to easily become so.
I think the Real ID has to be something more permanent to qualify as a mark, but we have the technology for it to easily become so.
never mind, I got the point.
Thanks defcon
Thanks defcon
edit on 3/28/2014 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Utnapisjtim
I dont see your point. The people who killed Him did so out of hate, not because they loved Him or sought salvation. It was a Satanic conspiracy to prevent Jesus from claiming the crown at the age of 40 (they killed Him 7 years before the end of the age). So basically, by killing Jesus, Satan still screwed up his own plans.
Either way, conspiracy or not, Jesus would have willingly offered Himself up as a payment for our sins. He came to fulfill the Levitical rite, and that involved a sacrifice. I get that you may not like that conclusion, but that is what the Old and New Testament unanimously teach.
I dont see your point. The people who killed Him did so out of hate, not because they loved Him or sought salvation. It was a Satanic conspiracy to prevent Jesus from claiming the crown at the age of 40 (they killed Him 7 years before the end of the age). So basically, by killing Jesus, Satan still screwed up his own plans.
Either way, conspiracy or not, Jesus would have willingly offered Himself up as a payment for our sins. He came to fulfill the Levitical rite, and that involved a sacrifice. I get that you may not like that conclusion, but that is what the Old and New Testament unanimously teach.
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