"Faith Alone" can not be "The Way"

jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

... these of course are based around Paul and his letters...

If by "Paul", as in different from "his letters", you mean Paul according to Acts, then what you are referring to is a fictional character in what amounts to historical fiction, and not the actual Paul.

Anyway, where does Paul ever say, "faith alone"?

edit on 12-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I provided a link in the OP...

Which includes references from Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Philippians

It has nothing to do with acts.... at least in this instance

reply to post by Akragon

I provided a link in the OP...

The phrase "Paul and his letters" is yours, and not the web site's.

Nowhere does Paul say "faith alone".
James does, except in the negative, that no one is saved by faith alone.
So, the author and the religion he represents are misinterpreting the Bible if they claim that it does teach "faith alone".

Here's where it it gets tricky.
They say ". . . the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works."

OK, but what does "justified" and "works" mean when Paul uses those words?
He means to be made right, and he means not by the works of the old written Mosaic Law.
People are made righteous by following the law of faith, which is the spirit of God that comes through the risen Christ, that becomes our spirit to have us do things that are good and not things that are bad.

reply to post by CynConcepts

his heart shows that worship is not needed to have a Christ consciousness

And there you have it!!

God ... doesn't care about your religion (or lack thereof). It's all okay.

Snarl
reply to post by CynConcepts

 

his heart shows that worship is not needed to have a Christ consciousness

And there you have it!!

God ... doesn't care about your religion (or lack thereof). It's all okay.

Woah how did logic appear on this thread
Kidding lol but you know, if Morgan Freeman said it, people would understand

jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

I provided a link in the OP...

The phrase "Paul and his letters" is yours, and not the web site's.

Nowhere does Paul say "faith alone".
James does, except in the negative, that no one is saved by faith alone.
So, the author and the religion he represents are misinterpreting the Bible if they claim that it does teach "faith alone".

While its true the words "faith alone" is not directly from Paul... the concept most definitely is...

Is "Faith apart from works" not the same thing as Faith alone?

And "one that does not work, yet still believes"... would that not imply Faith alone, without work?

Paul specifically states in many cases, belief in Jesus is all that is needed... Even by "grace" which is nothing Jesus taught...

The writer gives a basic summery after the quotes from Pauls letters...

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

reply to post by Akragon

Is "Faith apart from works" not the same thing as Faith alone?

See the additional part that I edited into my post above.

Paul specifically states in many cases, belief in Jesus is all that is needed... Even by "grace" which is nothing Jesus taught...

What does he mean by Grace and "all that is needed"?
The big thing was before Christianity for the Jews to proselytize gentiles by telling them they can join Israel by following the Law.
That would be for the person accepting those terms, being saved.
When Paul taught the gospel, he was working against that but using the same terminology, to get gentiles to join the church.
So, to Paul and how he presented it, the gentiles could be saved, joining the church, but not by keeping the old written Mosaic Law, but by believing in Jesus (and all that entails).

Sorry, but it's stated pretty clearly that the way is through faith.

The only real controversy in Christian theology is whether or not you only need faith or whether you need faith + works for salvation.

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

The emphasis is mine. I will point out that I've held the same position as James (and Paul for that matter). If a person who claims to be a Christian has genuine faith, it is impossible for them not to produce works. Works are a result of faith and a product of the changed heart of salvation.

I've been consistent about this here.

There are also many who think it is enough to call themselves Christian and simply go through the motions on Sunday. We all know who they are, and they produce popular fruit for discussion like this one, particularly when non-believers want to point out how much holier than thou they are in relation to this or that Christian they know.

reply to post by ketsuko

Sorry, but it's stated pretty clearly that the way is through faith.

Sorry but Jesus did not teach Faith alone... Paul did...

Notice in your link its all Paul, No quotes from the gospels

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works

Every man includes those who have no faith in God or even believe in one...

reply to post by jmdewey60

...but by believing in Jesus (and all that entails).

Good so we agree, Faith alone is not enough

IF one believes in Jesus and all that entails, one must do as he asked... Love, give to others, show mercy, and forgiveness...

All of which are works of the spirit

What sort of validation are you seeking ?
You seem like a really nice person but it is obvious you are seeking redemption outside of yourself. Let me tell you something, Aboriginals don't have a bible, they have their own code to live by. Every single argument that relates to any bible completely discounts the fact they are human. This is why I find it hard to talk to people who refuse to get out of the box/book.
You are slave bro, no if buts of what's here.

UltraverseMaximus
What sort of validation are you seeking ?
You seem like a really nice person but it is obvious you are seeking redemption outside of yourself. Let me tell you something, Aboriginals don't have a bible, they have their own code to live by. Every single argument that relates to any bible completely discounts the fact they are human. This is why I find it hard to talk to people who refuse to get out of the box/book.
You are slave bro, no if buts of what's here.

Gently, my friend.

Everyone will come to know God. I don't know if there's more than one path to Knowing in this mortal shell, but I Know there is at least one path.

My remarks in this thread may have been very short ... but anyone looking ... can find X marking the spot right there.

UltraverseMaximus
What sort of validation are you seeking ?
You seem like a really nice person but it is obvious you are seeking redemption outside of yourself. Let me tell you something, Aboriginals don't have a bible, they have their own code to live by. Every single argument that relates to any bible completely discounts the fact they are human. This is why I find it hard to talk to people who refuse to get out of the box/book.
You are slave bro, no if buts of what's here.

I will take this just as it is...

You don't know me or what i write... I seek no validation from anyone...

Thanks for your reply though

Akragon

UltraverseMaximus
What sort of validation are you seeking ?
You seem like a really nice person but it is obvious you are seeking redemption outside of yourself. Let me tell you something, Aboriginals don't have a bible, they have their own code to live by. Every single argument that relates to any bible completely discounts the fact they are human. This is why I find it hard to talk to people who refuse to get out of the box/book.
You are slave bro, no if buts of what's here.

I will take this just as it is...

You don't know me or what i write... I seek no validation from anyone...

Thanks for your reply though

You project yourself. I think you might want to check yourself here bro, what is this post about?

I cannot believe that people can think that ego less masters like Jesus and god (ultimate consciousness) would care what name you choose to call them to receive aid if there is a real need?

Give them some credit. They are beings that think on a higher levels of consciousness working for the good of "all that is" and not prideful small minded people needing some kind of ego boost to do the right/"most symbiotic" action.

To me thinking that Jesus or god would abandon a soul, who do in action what Jesus and god want's, on a name/view technicality, is thinking Jesus and god has an extreme character flaw.

It seems in a way I have more faith in both Jesus and god being pure pride less beings than some Christians do. Kinda makes you wonder.

Snarl

UltraverseMaximus
What sort of validation are you seeking ?
You seem like a really nice person but it is obvious you are seeking redemption outside of yourself. Let me tell you something, Aboriginals don't have a bible, they have their own code to live by. Every single argument that relates to any bible completely discounts the fact they are human. This is why I find it hard to talk to people who refuse to get out of the box/book.
You are slave bro, no if buts of what's here.

Gently, my friend.

Everyone will come to know God. I don't know if there's more than one path to Knowing in this mortal shell, but I Know there is at least one path.

My remarks in this thread may have been very short ... but anyone looking ... can find X marking the spot right there.

We each have our own tools, for me I have a mighty hammer lol.
I didn't get to where I am without stepping on a lot of egg shells.

UltraverseMaximus

Snarl

UltraverseMaximus
What sort of validation are you seeking ?
You seem like a really nice person but it is obvious you are seeking redemption outside of yourself. Let me tell you something, Aboriginals don't have a bible, they have their own code to live by. Every single argument that relates to any bible completely discounts the fact they are human. This is why I find it hard to talk to people who refuse to get out of the box/book.
You are slave bro, no if buts of what's here.

Gently, my friend.

Everyone will come to know God. I don't know if there's more than one path to Knowing in this mortal shell, but I Know there is at least one path.

My remarks in this thread may have been very short ... but anyone looking ... can find X marking the spot right there.

We each have our own tools, for me I have a mighty hammer lol.
I didn't get to where I am without stepping on a lot of egg shells.

LOL Has the hammer Ever worked?

Snarl

UltraverseMaximus

Snarl

UltraverseMaximus
What sort of validation are you seeking ?
You seem like a really nice person but it is obvious you are seeking redemption outside of yourself. Let me tell you something, Aboriginals don't have a bible, they have their own code to live by. Every single argument that relates to any bible completely discounts the fact they are human. This is why I find it hard to talk to people who refuse to get out of the box/book.
You are slave bro, no if buts of what's here.

Gently, my friend.

Everyone will come to know God. I don't know if there's more than one path to Knowing in this mortal shell, but I Know there is at least one path.

My remarks in this thread may have been very short ... but anyone looking ... can find X marking the spot right there.

We each have our own tools, for me I have a mighty hammer lol.
I didn't get to where I am without stepping on a lot of egg shells.

LOL Has the hammer Ever worked?

Haha yeah it works well for belting hot iron into shapes, but sometimes it breaks glass.
In case of emergency break glass

reply to post by Akragon


The Samaritans believed in Jesus because of His words, not His works (miracles)... see John 3 and 4. Jesus said on numerous occasions that those who believe in Him have eternal life. Paul was only reiterating what Jesus said. It was the Jews who used Jesus as a means to an end, such as healing and feeding them. Then, only after seeing His miracles, did some of them believe, but not all.

Akragon
reply to post by ketsuko

 

Sorry, but it's stated pretty clearly that the way is through faith.

Sorry but Jesus did not teach Faith alone... Paul did...

Notice in your link its all Paul, No quotes from the gospels

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works

Every man includes those who have no faith in God or even believe in one...

And the way to God for that reward is through Christ, John 14:6.

If you don't have faith in Christ and salvation, you won't be rewarded.

Salvation first. Without salvation through faith, there is nothing else.

Btw, I could also point out that Matthew 16:27 is a reference to the Second Coming when Christ will return to judge all who are left according to what they have earned. It refers back to Daniel's prophecies.

reply to post by ketsuko


Keep reading John 14 if you're going to use it as a reference

IF you love me keep my commandments...

You're saying only those that believe in Jesus can be saved... Those that have never heard of him are already lost

Thus anyone who does good works because it is right not because of any belief in Jesus are also lost

By this you nullify the second commandment he gave...

This returns us the the "eliteist" version of Christianity i mentioned in the OP

Hindu's are lost, muslims are lost, buddhists are lost... And every other belief system except your own

Good luck with that