Satan: Humanity's Hero

reply to post by QueenofSpades


Listen to this podcast on the origins of Satan -

traffic.libsyn.com...

November 13th: Speak of the Devil
MonsterTalk welcomes back Bible scholar Robert M. Price to discuss the biggest and most well known villain in Western culture: Satan. Who is this character and how has he changed over the history of Judeo/Christian religions? From servant of God to dark villain, we track the evolution of the Devil.

It's a fascinating talk.

Nice OP! Star and a Flag!

This is some serious food for thought. God kills and demands his followers to 'Sin' basically...to kill and sacrifice and keep slaves and rape and plunder. God tells slaves to shut up and be good little slaves and that freedom is over rated. Satan does say rebel. Though we only have God's side of the story. What if it was the other way round. what if Satan was the Good guy but weak and God throw him the hell out of heaven and then switched the roles on us poor little humans! How would we know? That's a mind twister right there!

amazing
Nice OP! Star and a Flag!

This is some serious food for thought. God kills and demands his followers to 'Sin' basically...to kill and sacrifice and keep slaves and rape and plunder. God tells slaves to shut up and be good little slaves and that freedom is over rated. Satan does say rebel. Though we only have God's side of the story. What if it was the other way round. what if Satan was the Good guy but weak and God throw him the hell out of heaven and then switched the roles on us poor little humans! How would we know? That's a mind twister right there!

If mankind ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, how could they not "know evil" (which means fornicating or reproducing) without committing it?

It seems here that you are condemning a figure for fulfilling the desires of its creation.

Also, how do you get that humans were slaves? What texts?

Or are you just postulating that if this were the case this specific scenario you have concocted would seem to have some form of validity?

-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Thank you for your reply. Your answers have been much different from what I have heard thus far, in regards to the definition of free will and people that may not get the chance to hear the word. I appreciate you taking the time.

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by QueenofSpades

 

I'm afraid you're a bit late. Below is the complete movie God on Trial, set in a concentration camp during WW2 where Jews set up a rabbilical trial accusing God for negligibility and breaking the covenenant:

Haven't seen it meself so I can't really recomend it just like that, but it seems like an interesting idea for a film.

God on Trial at www.imdb.com...

Don't have time to watch this, but it seems kind of absurd-why would you believe in/obey a God who is capable of or willing to break His covenant? They seem to be saying: "Something bad happened to us; it must be God's fault, because we're never to blame!"

Edit: I just realized that this sounds like I'm blaming the Jews for the Holocaust, which I am not. But it is interesting that the Old Testament is full of stories about terrible things that happened to the Chosen People because of their sins. So it could be the most massive "Job-ing" ever, or maybe the European Jews were secretly into some really freaky idolatry and got in trouble for it.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


I was un aware that text had sound behind it. I was capitilizing for emphasis not because i was yelling. The bible has meaning you have to interpret sometimes.



The commandment in question is restated in Deuteronomy 5:17, which also states (in the King James Version Bible) - "Thou shalt not kill." The meaning of this verse becomes a little clearer when we read other Bible translations, which have instead "You shall not murder." Jesus, in his well-known message called the Sermon on the Mount, repeated the commandment when he taught: "Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21).

Murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. According to the Bible not all killing is murder. God allowed the Israelites, under the Old Covenant, to kill other humans under very special circumstances (Numbers 35:16-19). The command forbidding murder applies to human beings only. Although God gave animals to us for our use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4) we should not mistreat them or take for granted the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill other humans and therefore made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).

Christians and the Laws.

The link there will explain about thou shall not kill if you read it a bit.

reply to post by QueenofSpades


There is a reason the Good guy always wins, because history is written by the victors.

Utnapisjtim

DazDaKing
reply to post by QueenofSpades

 

Samjaza, feeling sickened by the apparent betrayal (believing the Jinn were his greatest creation) and consumed by his own pride - refuses to bow to the human.

Since you refered to Islam as a source for the above story, wouldn't it be right to use the Arabic name Iblis, the jinn who refused to bow down to Adam in Islam, and the name of the Shaytan? Semjaza is the fallen angel who taught man the Name of God, and who was the leader of the 18 "chiefs of ten" or the 200 fallen angels who made the pact at mount Hermon in the Book of Enoch (Chapter VI). The Gospel of Bartholomew has a similar story to that of Islam and the fall of Satan (then again, Satan seems to rise and fall on a regular basis):

But the devil said: [...] when I came from the ends of the earth Michael said: Worship thou the image of God, which he hath made according to his likeness. But I said: I am fire of fire, I was the first angel formed, and shall worship clay and matter? And Michael saith to me: Worship, lest God be wroth with thee. But I said to him: God will not be wroth with me; but I will set my throne over against his throne, and I will be as he is. Then was God wroth with me and cast me down, having commanded the windows of heaven to be opened.(Gospel of Bartholomew IV 52ff)

You're completely correct - my bad. Samjaza is the name given in the Book of Enoch. I think those names for him beginning in 'S' stuck in my head due to the word 'Satan'. Though if I remember correctly he is referred to mostly as the Shaytan or Shaitan in Islam. It's been a while since I read the Islamic genesis and the story of Satan.

Thanks for the correction anyway.

reply to post by QueenofSpades


Good and Evil - there never is one without the other!

LittleGreenAlien
reply to post by QueenofSpades

 

Good and Evil - there never is one without the other!

Sure there is, Goovil

reply to post by UltraverseMaximus


or Evood

Logarock
Satan was clearly jealous and hateful toward Job, couldn't get at Job because he was protected.

"Protected"? Really?! I'm pretty sure Job was "got at".

reply to post by QueenofSpades

Just wrongfully slandered by the winner.

I'll take the winner for eternity.

FriedBabelBroccoli

Cuervo

rickymouse
Satan is the tester, he tests our worthiness. I don't think this being is actually evil. If we take the bait we suffer the consequences. We are the ones who take the bait, Satan is just the fisherman. So is the fisherman evil, collecting souls to consume. I don't think so. If we do not desire more wealth than we need or more respect than we really deserve, we shouldn't have a problem.

With Job, he also tested the OT god's cruelty. Christians read Job thinking it was to test Job's faith but I think it was to illustrate how far the OT god will go to protect his pride.

It would be like a father tearing apart all of his child's toys, friends, and kittens in front of him and then poison him just to prove to the neighbor that his kid will still love him afterwards. Pretty evil in my book.

I think you are forgetting that humanity is on Earth as a PUNISHMENT . . . .

Most folks here talking about how horrible the Biblical God is because "He" allows pain, suffering, war and all that goes along with it to go on completely ignore this point.

The original sin was disobeying God because he was the true incarnation of the "philosopher king," perfect in wisdom and providing all that is required.

Then mankind goes along and thinks they know better and eat the fruit of good and evil (which is essentially interpreted as ALL KNOWING FRUIT) and God boots them out of Heaven into a "sandbox" environment where they can attempt to rule themselves and learn that they are not suited to rule themselves.

All this boo-hooing about the Biblical God being horrible and evil just further demonstrates how completely ignorant of, or biased against, the text folks really are.

The Satan, adversary, committed the very same sin by attempting to overthrow God just as mankind attempts to do later. His punishment is a result of coaxing the ignorant humans into following him.

LoL at this thread, its the same joke repeated daily on this site.

-FBB

I'm confused. So a god creates two people, those people disobey him... he casts them away and then says "you will suffer without me, you'll see" but then when humanity starts building societies and what-not, he commands them to kill each other and gives them lists of punishments to dole out on one another and then says "See? I told you that this would suck!".

It's like somebody dumping their boyfriend, "knowing" he'll come crawling back but then stalks him and starts killing his girlfriends when he doesn't.

I get why Christians believe what they do but they won't ever be able to convince me that he was the good guy in the OT.

reply to post by Cuervo

I get why Christians believe what they do but they won't ever be able to convince me that he was the good guy in the OT.

And it sure is tuff to see why too.

'm confused. So a god creates two people, those people disobey him... he casts them away and then says "you will suffer without me, you'll see" but then when humanity starts building societies and what-not, he commands them to kill each other and gives them lists of punishments to dole out on one another and then says "See? I told you that this would suck!".

I don't want to convince you of anything. But it's obvious why you portray the intelligence of God,
in a way that makes him out to be a buffoon. When you can look at creation and see the ignorance
in your deduction.

FriedBabelBroccoli

Krazysh0t
All one has to do is look at the story of Job to see God's evilness. Here is a story where the "good guy" tortures and destroys an innocent man's life all on a BET! Either God is truly evil or just got divinely trolled by Satan by getting God to do his evil work for him. Many apologists will claim that Job gets a new family and life as a reward for his devotion, but what about the other people? You may remember there are a few other people that were affected by this bet. Namely Job's family and servants. Do they not count? They end up as collateral damage in this stupid bet, almost like the poor police officers driving a patrol car during an action movie chase that gets blown up or t-boned due to some crazy driving by the villain while the hero swerves around the danger. Sure Job gets to go on happy that he has a new life, but these people are dead. And they remain dead when the story is over. We all know that God is supposed to be able to do anything, so why couldn't he bring these people back from the dead? But who cares about them right? Job our hero, turns out fine in the end.

edit on 12-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

Derp derp de derp argument as usual Krazysh0t . . .

If you actually read the text humankind was meant to reside in Heaven, NOT Earth. People were exiled to Earth as punishment and so taking their life means absolutely nothing as Biblically the pleasures of the Earth are nothing compared to those of Heaven.

Also, you don't seem to understand the dichotomy made in the Bible between physical death and spiritual death. The Bible basically says that the physical things (those of the flesh) are fleeting, but the spirit lives forever.

Essentially your issues all stem from not accepting the concept of spirits existing and only viewing the "worldly" events and "worldly" outcomes of said events.

You should probably stick to bashing Catholics, you are MUCH better at that to be honest.

-FBB

Oh? So God mercilessly slaughtering Job's family and servants for this bet is ok because they get to go to heaven now? God robbed these people of their lives for NO good reason and it is fine because now they are in a better place? By that crazy logic, all the people that despots like Hitler and Stalin slaughtered is ok because they are all now in heaven. Heck, what's the point of living a life in the flesh to begin with? God should just create spirits and have them live with him in heaven. Eternity is such a long time anyways, what is 70 or so years that you are alive in the flesh compared to eternity?

Also, where does the Bible say that humans were cast out of heaven? Everything I've read from the bible (ie Genesis) says they were cast out of the Garden of Eden which is implied is on Earth. I normally shun bible passages on ATS and don't read them, but I want you to post SPECIFIC bible passages that say that humans existed in heaven and were cast out of heaven. If this means that the Garden of Eden was in heaven, then produce the passages that make this clear. I want to see actual words that say "Garden of Eden, located in heaven...." or some such thing. I don't want to see some vague passage that can be interpreted five thousand ways. If it is so obvious to you that it warrants a condescending response to me, then it must be obvious to the majority of other Christians as well. So therefore it must be clearly written out as such in the Bible, otherwise you are just trying to angrily push your personal interpretation of the bible onto me. Keep in mind, I was raised Catholic as I'm sure you are aware going by how you responded to me, and this is literally the first I've heard of this claim.

UltraverseMaximus
Anyone seen Jim Jefferies stand up comedy on religion?
He raises some valid points but the thing people should realise is, The devil never brought out a book, God brought out a book like he had something to try and prove to everyone. If you ask Jim, the devil was being a bigger man letting god talk crap about him lol

Also Jim Jefferies also stated he is a depressed alcoholic. He battles depression and drink. I don't think Jefferies has any answers when examining right from wrong.

yuppa
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

I was un aware that text had sound behind it. I was capitilizing for emphasis not because i was yelling. The bible has meaning you have to interpret sometimes.

Writing in capitals in forums like this one is a sign of aggression and is refered to as shouting. It's bloody annoying and bears witness of immaturity and is impolite.

The commandment in question is restated in Deuteronomy 5:17, which also states (in the King James Version Bible) - "Thou shalt not kill." The meaning of this verse becomes a little clearer when we read other Bible translations, which have instead "You shall not murder." Jesus, in his well-known message called the Sermon on the Mount, repeated the commandment when he taught: "Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21).

What you are saying is that mere men murder, while kings and his generals kill. Like Jesus says and John repeats, killing is sacrilage alltogether, and the kings of this world (the beasts) will receive Hell for executing it on a regulary basis. By making a distinction between killing and murder, you agree that there are times when killing is not murder. That does rely on the old feudal system where kings and rulers were above the law and as corrupt as the waiter in the restaurant. I am quite well versed in the Bible and have studied some linguistics both on my own and in university, so there is no need to teach me how to use biblehub.com or how ancient texts are to be understood.

The word you are looking for is Late Hebrew verb רָצַח or 'Ratsach' and it means anything from killing (in general), to murder (manslaughter, breaking the law), assasinating, slaughter, and both premeditated, accidental or avenging killings apply, including, but not limited to, legal killings, like execution of murderers in Numbers 35:30, "the murderer shall be put to death" -- word is הָרֹצֵ֑חַ - ha'roseah, definite article prefix plus רָצַח 'ratsach' as in 'the act of killing'.

In Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic and all the different dialects included in the OT, there are lit. dozens of words for killing:
==> Words meaning to kill in OT

As you would understand by now, using modern English arbitrary idioms to explain ancient words in completely different, and very much extinct languages-- is fallacy and nothing short of anachronism.

Jesuslives4u

UltraverseMaximus
Anyone seen Jim Jefferies stand up comedy on religion?
He raises some valid points but the thing people should realise is, The devil never brought out a book, God brought out a book like he had something to try and prove to everyone. If you ask Jim, the devil was being a bigger man letting god talk crap about him lol

Also Jim Jefferies also stated he is a depressed alcoholic. He battles depression and drink. I don't think Jefferies has any answers when examining right from wrong.

That is a pretty ignorant thing to say don't you think. So what is the excuse for the countless people on pharmacy medication, do they have no distinguishing values concerning right or wrong?
Anyway I think it is a very valid observation, I don't see someone who is secure needing to indoctrinate people like sheep into their beliefs. I do however see try hards doing this everyday.

DazDaKing

Utnapisjtim

DazDaKing
reply to post by QueenofSpades

 

Samjaza, feeling sickened by the apparent betrayal (believing the Jinn were his greatest creation) and consumed by his own pride - refuses to bow to the human.

Since you refered to Islam as a source for the above story, wouldn't it be right to use the Arabic name Iblis, the jinn who refused to bow down to Adam in Islam, and the name of the Shaytan? Semjaza is the fallen angel who taught man the Name of God, and who was the leader of the 18 "chiefs of ten" or the 200 fallen angels who made the pact at mount Hermon in the Book of Enoch (Chapter VI). The Gospel of Bartholomew has a similar story to that of Islam and the fall of Satan (then again, Satan seems to rise and fall on a regular basis):

But the devil said: [...] when I came from the ends of the earth Michael said: Worship thou the image of God, which he hath made according to his likeness. But I said: I am fire of fire, I was the first angel formed, and shall worship clay and matter? And Michael saith to me: Worship, lest God be wroth with thee. But I said to him: God will not be wroth with me; but I will set my throne over against his throne, and I will be as he is. Then was God wroth with me and cast me down, having commanded the windows of heaven to be opened.(Gospel of Bartholomew IV 52ff)

You're completely correct - my bad. Samjaza is the name given in the Book of Enoch. I think those names for him beginning in 'S' stuck in my head due to the word 'Satan'. Though if I remember correctly he is referred to mostly as the Shaytan or Shaitan in Islam. It's been a while since I read the Islamic genesis and the story of Satan.

Thanks for the correction anyway.

No problem, it's a pleasure. Some argue that Semjaza is another name of Satan, like Samael, Iblis, Ra, Bel and Zeus are. Up here we call him Elder-Erik, he's quite nice, but very dead unfortunately, his days are gone, was fun the while it lasted though, he gave us our skis and the Herdanger-fiddle and many other things and you can see him in thousand year+ old architecture and art. Kinda miss him. The serpent is dead, long live the serpent