Satan: Humanity's Hero

reply to post by FlyersFan


All of these ideas are also in the TORAH, after all TORAH is what JESUS taught.

stok3th3fir3

Cuervo

Jesuslives4u

Cuervo

Logarock
Satan was clearly jealous and hateful toward Job, couldn't get at Job because he was protected.

"Protected"? Really?! I'm pretty sure Job was "got at".

God told Satan he could have at it with Job but he was not allowed to kill him. So basically Job was protected.

Wow.

You're right. You just convinced me. The OT god is the biblical equivalent of the resuscitation unit at Gitmo. That guy who keeps the victim alive while being tortured is "basically" protecting him.

No, but GOD puts his people through the fire and hammers them into shape, so that the end result is like a fine piece of armour, not easily broken. As we can see Job was then blessed beyond what he originally had. Its like we are clay and he is the potter. The clay must have the air pockets removed before it will make a proper vessel, so the clay is layed upon the ground and the air bubbles are stomped out of it, but the end result is much more durable than clay with air in it. Even then the clay has not finished its journey, it must be molded into perfection, if the shape doesn't hold, he molds again. Then the clay is placed in the fire and made hard. Cly that has not benn properly dealt with will simply crumble away as dust, armour that is not properly dealt with will bend and break. It's like iron and steel, which would you choose?

I would prefer steel. However, the bible speaks only of sharpening iron. I believe steel is superior yet it takes both iron (wisdom) and carbon (human) to create it. Christianity only provides the iron. The rest of the world provides your carbon.

What the OT gods did to Job was not creating steel; it was demonstrating the cruelty of a jealous god. If I saw two men torturing a dog to prove that he would remain loyal, I would not think "hmmm... I bet that dog will come out much wiser and better for this".

You make an exception for your god because he is your god. However, if this were any mortal committing this crime, he would be reviled by society (rightfully so). This is a reoccurring theme in the Old Testament. Acquiring the "wisdom" to justify those actions turn a person into a sociopath. I would never want to be placed in a position where I would have to justify those acts so I feel for you there but... if I were put in that position, I wouldn't justify them; I would simply own them and say I don't understand.

reply to post by Cuervo


Job was put through a trial, not torture, you use words like that to demonise what you don't understand. If you think about it, there is less knowledge and wisdom gained from every good experience in your whole life, than in the worst suffering you experience. So own it, and you will come to understand, hindsight is 20/20, and I would bet that there are things that happened to you that don't seem so bad in hindsight as they did while they were occuring.

reply to post by Cuervo


Steel is also made with intense heat, that is just as important, and if you want steel to be especially hard, you quench it in oil, or annoint it. So you agree, steel is better, GOD agrees as well, thats why he will put your iron through the process, and will be exceedingly proud of the result. The master craftman must put great time and love into a blade, ensuring it is balanced and hard while keeping its ductility, would you rather be an ulfbert, or an english iron shortsword?

stok3th3fir3
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Steel is also made with intense heat, that is just as important, and if you want steel to be especially hard, you quench it in oil, or annoint it. So you agree, steel is better, GOD agrees as well, thats why he will put your iron through the process, and will be exceedingly proud of the result.

Again, using dogs as an analogy, we can see how nurture vs torture compares. A dog trained by police as a K-9 unit is very obedient and is taught through respect, love, and training. A Rottweiler fighting dog is raised through malice, pain, and aggravation. Would you argue that the fighting dog is a better dog than the K-9 unit? Which one is bitter and fearful of the world? Which one will save your life?

And none of that matters with Job, anyway. He was not trying to improve Job; he was trying to prove a point to Satan. Why didn't Yahweh suggest that Satan temp Job with riches and power in order to dissuade him from his god? Why torture him and kill innocent people? I think Satan was trying to see how far he would go. He was testing Yahweh more than Job.

stok3th3fir3
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Job was put through a trial, not torture, you use words like that to demonise what you don't understand.

I use words like that because words mean things and have definitions. I didn't label his actions inaccurately.

tor·ture
ˈtôrCHər/Submit
noun
1.
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

I'd say it fits.

stok3th3fir3
If you think about it, there is less knowledge and wisdom gained from every good experience in your whole life, than in the worst suffering you experience. So own it, and you will come to understand, hindsight is 20/20, and I would bet that there are things that happened to you that don't seem so bad in hindsight as they did while they were occuring.

I don't agree with that. My daughter learns from positive reinforcement and goes to school with children who obviously do not get that. Those children are mean-spirited and, when their parents come to meeting night, they are the coldest, most hard-core disciplinarians among the other parents. They are the ones casting cold glares at their children when they speak at the wrong time, their hands twitch towards their belts until they catch the eyes of the other parents upon them.

I couldn't imagine a caring and moral kid like mine being under the tutelage from an adult who seriously believes that pain and suffering substitutes proper parenting.

reply to post by stok3th3fir3

. . . TORAH is what JESUS taught.

Jesus taught fundamental laws and never taught anything that was exclusive to the Torah, that you couldn't find in other religions or civil laws.

reply to post by Cuervo


It's a between balance between the two Cuervo, but of course you take it to the extreme just to prove your point. All I'm saying is that GOD has processes that you look at with human understanding and don't understand, I do because I have a relationship with him. You see if I pray for strength, I get the oppurtunity to use the strength that is within me. If I pray for peace, I will have to make peace in a situation that is not peacefull. This is the way we are taught. That is only part of it though, GOD also has a great love that cannot even be described, it is beyond anything you have EVER experienced.

the sumerian texts really help figure this out. people really should look at them more closely.

for example, Ea (pronounced Ayah, otherwise known as H-ayah, who is Jehovah) is Enki. Enki created humans to solve a worker crisis. notice in genesis 2 it says, god saw there was no man to till the land. corroboration. The worker crisis went thusly:

the first adamic race of males and females have been called by many names in ancient texts. they were copies of the elohim. they were called the anuna and the igigi. on earth,there was a massive cataclysm we know as the ice age. the igigi/elohim copied adamic race/anunna, were evacuated. when they returned, they were tasked with rebuilding the infrastructure of the planet. they had eternally regenerating/healing bodies, so they didn't need to sleep. therefore, they worked around the clock rebuilding the dams, tilling the land, building the canals, rebuilding the structures, the mines and so on. then, they went on a strike and protested in front of enlil's temple fortress. enlil panicked and sent for enki to solve the problem.

thus the creator, enki EA, created the man to till the land mentioned in chapter 2 of genesis to help take up the slack, since the original elohim copied adam had stopped tilling the land. the rationale for the creation of the human was to solve a worker shortage. enki was already creating genetic copies of the elohim but he had to be present to do that and sometimes he was elsewhere.
so to solve the issue he created the man to till the land and gave him procreation so he could make copies of himself. hands free solution..

however, enlil didn't like the procreative humans, because they were still retaining the eternally regenerating dna from the first adamic race, but, with procreative ability added on. enlil was an environmentalist. he was concerned humans would make copies (breed) too often, thus ruining his planet, so he went to the divine council and demanded that human dna be nerfed
(downgraded).

there you have it, the creator and the accuser are not the same guy, and the accuser is the guy who doesn't like humans. i mean how obvious can it get.

i had a job once, now i am retired.

satan is very real, the best thing he has done is make people believe he doesn't exist.

and you all are helping, him.

Job didn't know what was going on. did he?

his world was crashing around him and he never lost faith in God.

tsingtao
i had a job once, now i am retired.

satan is very real, the best thing he has done is make people believe he doesn't exist.

and you all are helping, him.

Job didn't know what was going on. did he?

his world was crashing around him and he never lost faith in God.

i'm not helping him. what i'm doing is proving that the old testament god is more than one god, and i'm not referring to the trinity. i'm talking about the god of this world. the god of this world is satan. he is the guy that demanded that humans be modified, because he didn't want humans multiplying like rabbits on HIS planet. he is the accuser. the guy that created us, is the good god, who didn't give us procreation until the fall narrative. the text is messed up there.

here, let me help you clarify this. read chapter 1 of genesis, starting around verse 26 and keep reading to the end of the chapter..
there you see god creating the first adamic race. males and females. they are not procreative. they are copied from the elohim so sex was not a functional part of their recreation. when more were needed, more were copied. so the chapter ends with the sixth day, and god has told them they can eat from any fruit tree. and everything is great. chapter 2 starts with the seventh day, and he has a rest, and declares the whole thing a smashing success.

next we see god saying, -- no one is tilling the ground. there's no man to do it. so he makes man to do it. so if the first adam males and females were human, why', after the seventh day, is god suddenly saying -- guess i will create a man to till the ground. lol
next, you see the other guy, satan, show up and demand they not eat from certain fruit trees. that makes no sense either unless you realize that 1) the first adam males and females could eat from any fruit trees, and this change in what trees can be eaten from is evidence that the first adam males and females are not human nor are they procreative, and 2) the trees are talking about genetic inheritance. the tree of knowledge was the tree of procreation -- et.al that part of your dna that governs whether you're sexually procreative or not. that's why it says, ADAM KNEW his wife and she begat. that's what eve's name means -- mother, because before this, there were no mothers, just lots of copies of the elohim.

the fall narrative is about humans becoming procreative instead of being copied. they would be able to copy themselves.

read read read. read. no more rote quoting from sunday school lessons. read.

jmdewey60
reply to post by stok3th3fir3

 

. . . TORAH is what JESUS taught.

Jesus taught fundamental laws and never taught anything that was exclusive to the Torah, that you couldn't find in other religions or civil laws.

It really would be more accurate to say that Jesus taught some things that have parallels in other religious and civil laws, and just a heck of a lot that had foundations in the Torah.

reply to post by tsingtao


I completely agree with you, satan is absolutely real, I don't believe the sumerian texts because they speak of Angels. This is a deception meant to fool many, into believing angels are aliens, and people will be fooled, it's already happening. Man was not made as a slave, but the children of YAH. Man became slaves only when following the FATHER was not enough and they asked for a man to rule over them. YAH even warned the people what society would be, slavery. You work, they take the fruit of your labors, this is still going on today. The favora comes to mind, for it was said that they had 1 eye and that was to covet, one grasp and that was to take, and one step and that was to invade.

reply to post by undo


So let me get this straight, humans were not made to procreate? This is rediculous, your story supposes these beings as very very STUPID. So they gave mankind reproductive organs but didn't want them to procreate? Get out of here, you are a FOOL. We were obviously DESIGNED to "be fruitfull and multiply" Obviously if they were smart enough to clone themselves, they would know how to keep mankind from reproducing, and there lies the problem, you are spitting foolishness as wisdom.

reply to post by stok3th3fir3



yes I believe these Sumerian tales to be propaganda taught to the masses for servitude of certain family's. Families that for millennium also taught that they were decedents from the gods themselves and thus should be worshiped and obeyed.

reply to post by Logarock


Agreed

reply to post by tsingtao

Satan... The one who lets you "Believe" he is your friend...!!!

Add insult to injury... he favors those whose "Good Faith" is easily persuaded...!!!

reply to post by stok3th3fir3

All of these ideas are also in the TORAH, after all TORAH is what JESUS taught.

Jesus created his own "Torah" as the lawgiver of the new covenant.
The old written Mosaic Law was the old wine-skin that could not contain the new wine.

stok3th3fir3
reply to post by undo

 

So let me get this straight, humans were not made to procreate? This is rediculous, your story supposes these beings as very very STUPID. So they gave mankind reproductive organs but didn't want them to procreate?

that's the whole point. i did not make that up. it's right there in the text. the original adam males and females in chapter 1, verses 26-27, are not procreative and likely didn't have procreative organs. in fact, they are not humans yet, they are simply called adam and are not copies of other humans but of elohim. notice there's no eve (no moms) there in the description and that this event is happening during the 7 days of creation and that they can eat from any fruit tree.

now read thru to chapter 2. the seventh day of creation is done and now we find god saying, there's no man to till the land. how's that possible if man was created in the seven days of creation? easy -- the adam created in the 7 days of creation were not humans yet, until they were given procreation, and that would necessarily include the internal organs to procreate. you're assuming they were human because the translators used the word "man" in the verse, when originally it just said adam. an adam was originally an elohim copy, whether male or female. and that means if there were already female elohim copies, that eve is variant of that original, and how was she variant? she became a mother, a procreator. that's what the fall narrative is. that is why i'm saying that people are assuming that the accuser is jehovah jesus, are not comprehending that the word for god is used to apply to the god of this world as well, and this error has not been fixed.

ask yourself, was elohim sexual? if not, then elohim copies weren't sexual either. they only became sexual when they were given the ability to procreate. otherwise, their numbers only increased when copies of the elohim were made.

it is seriously not my fault that the text says-- god saw there was no man to TILL THE LAND. it doesn't say, god noticed there was no man to go hang gliding with. he created humans as workers by modifying the dna of the elohim copies from chapter 1.

as far as the subject of EXTRA-TERRESTRIALS go, anything that isn't born on earth is EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL. so other planets, other galaxies, other universes or other dimensions, all of those are extra terrestial locations.