To all who believe in ghosts.. Let me put this myth to rest!

br0ker
This should be extremely reasonable to most people. Yet I'm shocked how you can be so unscientific about the fact.

Well, keep in mind, science is a tool to figure out the how, not to explain the why. Science is not a religion, it is a method to help in understanding. Problem is, when the tool isn't advanced enough to uncover the methods, then it isn't unscientific to have a hypothesis about something.
"ghosts" are elusive to current scientific tools for the most part. We can have some ideas and suggestions, but ultimately for now it is a unknown. I will however point out some minor flaws in your thought process here

If a ghost should be able to move things, manifest itself to be viewed, or make sounds then it HAS to be a physical entity. A non-physical entity can not, in ANY way MOVE physical things.

You have both movement and sound here..yes, sound cannot exist in a vacume, however, as far is a requirement of physical to move something..well, gravity will move something, or rather, help the effect thereof. waves can move objects without a physical thing pushing it, etc.

I am not sure if anyone is suggesting in any serious tone that a ghost is made out of casper stuff...ultimately it is a unknown how it interacts with the surroundings outside of it does.
Some sort of manipulation of the matter and energy

To be seen it needs to be physical as well, otherwise there is NO way to reflect light.

Sort of true also, however, it doesn't need to be a solid object to reflect.

And most of all, to interact with you, it would need a brain. No physical entity=no brain=no mind and thought.

Hmm, see, now I am in two minds about this.
around me, invisible, are radio waves and all sorts. I cannot see or feel them, but if I grabbed a radio or the like and turned it on, I could make sense of this weird invisible stuff and suddenly music would be coming out, people doing advertisments, etc...
Is the radio making the music? sure..but if I smash up the radio, is all that music and stuff lost forever? no..because the radio seems to house the ability to process these invisible waves isn't itself the end all/be all..just a tool used to interpret the already existing waves.
Now, if you jam a screwdriver through the speaker, it will sound different and weird, but if you simply replace it all, it will sound normal again..
The brain is most certainly a processor and interpreter. their is however a valid argument to be had on if it is critical towards the overall information and identity.

And the physical part of what you call a ghost is long gone and buried. It is only buried bones, if anything at all.

makes sense, sure.
but it seems that may not be the case.
Would be nice to find out what is going on in clear scientific terms one day. Would make my mind a bit more certain, because all I have to go on outside of random hypothesis, is some pretty profound experiences. imagine how nuts it would be for you if you had a proper "ghost" experience a few times over and no matter how much investigation into rational understandings, you came up blank...then you got someone who wasn't there basically saying it never happened because it cant.
Its like, you agree that it can't, but...well, it happened..so instead of lying and pretending it didn't, you simply try to understand more what exactly "it" was...

Welcome to the life of people whom have had big experiences in otherwise a skeptical mindset.

reply to post by br0ker


["And most of all, to interact with you, it would need a brain. No physical entity=no brain=no mind and thought."]

Actually Quantum Physics is finding out that Consciousness is the underlying fabric of reality. Many people seem to assume that the "mind" as they put it is a function of the brain, and therefor that implicates that Consciousness is a product of the material world.

This is as we are finding out.. much like looking at the world as flat with the sun rotating around it everyday.

Consciousness can and does affect matter. *see Dr. Masaru Emoto's experiments on water molecules for a simple example.

And seeing as how it seems to be that the more we find out.. the more we realize how much we really don't know; How is it you can be so certain of anything?

Truth is none of us know what any of it is.
UFOs.. the paranormal. there's a lot more questions than there is answers. and the more you look into things the more you find you that you didn't know (imagine that).

Reality can be some scary #,but it mostly relies on what you make of it... what you believe defines your reality. your very perception shapes it.. but experience can change beliefs... that is why people share and discuss. alot of people have seen things they cant explain... after that.. who knows..

reply to post by br0ker


Just curious if you intend to address my post or if I should quit wasting my time and unfollow this thread?

reply to post by br0ker


Gravity has no mass but it can bend time, move suns and is a form of energy eg a black hole is all about gravity

Actually, I think that the questions and points put forward is valid, but instead of proclaiming it all to be malarkey, it might do you a better service to pose it in terms of investigation.

"ok folks, lets discuss ghosts. So, we currently are aware that things with no physical presence cannot move stuff, make sound, or reflect light. How then could it be possible that these things do happen? Any actual theories or leads that could be investigated to better understand this pheonoma? What do we have that could sort of mimic such behavior without breaking physical law.."

See, this way of speaking brings people into a consideration of possibilitys verses kneejerk defensive response of (lets be honest) what nobody truly knows about..to include yourself.

The terms are getting muddied here in this thread.

Poltergeist (moves things) - (see below "co-worker")

Ghost hangs around long after death as in most movies.

Spirit or Life Energy - looks like the heat waves you can see rising from tar roads on a hot Summer day in Texas. In some religions a highly evolved person's spirit may linger up to 40 days in the body ... hence the reading of the Bardos to deceased Tibetan monks.

Shade - characterized by the darkness or shadowyness - blackish.

As for poltergeists, I had a co-worker in the late 70's who caused chaos by merely walking up and down the aisles. I watched her feet and she wasn't tripping any cords. I watched her hands and she didn't touch these things. But, as she walked past desks, 10-keys, typewriters, telephones, clipboards, in-out boxes and especially smaller objects like pens and pencils went flying.

I had seen a show on TV explaining a neurological electrical short-circuit that can cause a person to UNCONSCIOUSLY make things fly.

I asked her if she noticed that these things happen around her. She confirmed and added it had been all her life and that her family treated her like a 'witch' which she assured she never dabbled in any of the crafts or *ahem* "arts".

I told her she's actually OKAY and explained about the show, telling her to see if she could find a copy of the show. The show also recommended a therapist trained in parapsychology.

As far as I know, she never did see the show or see a parapsychologust ... BUT! After our talk, her plague of odd occurances disappeared and she was as peace after all those years.

See this SCIENTIFIC short blurb from a government medical webpage. Case Report

But - Poltergeists, ghosts, shades and a body's spirit are NOT the same thing. It's all different subjects actually.

reply to post by br0ker

I wouldnt think or trying to convince you...because of no matter what I'd say...you wont accept it.

The real issue is why are you so adamant? Thats small minded of you.

reply to post by Trexter Ziam


Thats a fine theory and one I've heard before, but according to the OP it violates the known laws of physics, therefore it's impossible. So I would like to know what the OP's explanation is for poltergeist activity. It clearly violates the known laws of physics yet it happens.

everything, you think you know, and scientists think they know, and what i think i know, we honesty are not 100% sure of... i have had a cpl instances in my life that question the new nature of us... my friends have had honest experiences of seeing loved ones who have been dead for YEARS casually walking through the house.. now not necessarily knocking things over or closing doors, but nonetheless, they were visible to the human mind.. science is always changing, always re-thinking things.. so your post is mute to say the least.

reply to post by schuyler


I like your post. I WILL look into this Chris Carter. If his credentials are good and the sources for the books are good I will infact read them.

----

Back to the basics..
Energy=mass in movement
Mass in movement defines time
Movement of mass needs space
Mass needs energy to move

I saw someone quoted Einstein on energy conversion. Sure, I ageee, but energy has no consiousness. And to that fellow, please extrapolate a few examples of energy conversion to me. Seems to me that guy thinks of energy like a something without mass.

And if anyone is thinking of going 21 grams with me you better bring more than the movie!

mysterioustranger
reply to post by br0ker

 

I wouldnt think or trying to convince you...because of no matter what I'd say...you wont accept it.

The real issue is why are you so adamant? Thats small minded of you.

Well, there are a number of reasons people take on the ghost argument so passionately

First off, just to get it out of the way, are the demons every religious crowd who demand any and everything is a demon trying to swallow your soul or some such. fear based paranoia of supernatural boogiemen and so they flip out on anyones story or anything slightly out of the norm (to include music they don't like). They can be ignored..no cure for that kind of crazy.

Then you have the concerned citizen. Normally this is a close one to you whom worries your gonna start blowing your paychecks to call the psychic network and hear how your old dog is in dog heaven now and loves you for 10 bucks a minute.

But more than likely, it is the ones that gripe a bit because they either never have had a personal experience, or have had but refuse to admit it due to it being insane (it sort of is if you think about it with a pure modern rational mind). So, instead of spend time and energy trying to explore and understand, you just become frustrated and bark at people that it can't be happening because it makes no sense.
I imagine if I didn't have personal experiences, I would fit into that category. However, seeing as I have, then well, I am simply wanting to know more about it, and maybe it eventually making some sort of sense.

And what about those of us who have actually seen ghosts, witnessed paranormal activity?
There are some plants and creatures that can create light.
What about the pushing and pulling power of magnets.
Just because modern day science is looking down the wrong end of the microscope doesnt mean to say its not there.
My old man had the same approach as you to the subject...right up until he saw a ghost.
You need to brush up on a little quantum physics.

br0ker


----

Back to the basics..
Energy=mass in movement
Mass in movement defines time
Movement of mass needs space
Mass needs energy to move

That's high school physics. You didn't read my links did you? Quantum mechanics is a whole new ball game.

br0ker
I saw someone quoted Einstein on energy conversion. Sure, I ageee, but energy has no consiousness.

We are all simply made up of energy.
We are conscious (at least some of us I would think...me definitely anyhow).
Which energy exactly is the bit that holds the consciousness? why is the protons and neutrons located in the brain different than the ones that are right next to it but on a grander scale, outside.

Energy is something we are barely beginning to understand, and the more we understand, the more wild it seems to be. Lets not define every attribute on a profound subject that has the best wizards of our time scratching their heads...best to be humble.

But anyhow, what we do understand about energy is that, it does have consciousness..and likes bacon.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Gonna do this real easy..
The house makes sounds at night because it gets colder outside. Cold mass contracts, and warm - the opposite. So your house "moves" a bit at night.
Pictures fall down because of gravity and mass/weight interplay.
And hey, there are quite a few earthquakes.

SaturnFX

br0ker
I saw someone quoted Einstein on energy conversion. Sure, I ageee, but energy has no consiousness.

We are all simply made up of energy.
We are conscious (at least some of us I would think...me definitely anyhow).
Which energy exactly is the bit that holds the consciousness? why is the protons and neutrons located in the brain different than the ones that are right next to it but on a grander scale, outside.

Energy is something we are barely beginning to understand, and the more we understand, the more wild it seems to be. Lets not define every attribute on a profound subject that has the best wizards of our time scratching their heads...best to be humble.

But anyhow, what we do understand about energy is that, it does have consciousness..and likes bacon.

No, no, no.. We ARE mass, we create energy by burning fuel(food). When you die you stop eating = no energy creation. Thereby, life/consiousness-of-self must not be confused with energy.

Bacon... Argh.. Give me!

br0ker
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

Gonna do this real easy..
The house makes sounds at night because it gets colder outside. Cold mass contracts, and warm - the opposite. So your house "moves" a bit at night.
Pictures fall down because of gravity and mass/weight interplay.
And hey, there are quite a few earthquakes.

lol what!?

That is honestly the best you have to offer? Did you even read my account? It didn't happen at night, it happened in broad daylight on a summer day at approximately 11:30am. How exactly does the house shifting cause an ashtray to fly on it's own power in a straight line from one end of the living room to the other, impacting the opposite wall with force?

As for earthquakes, When this occurred it happened in north western Alberta, Canada. There aren't many earthquakes there, and I'm pretty sure I would have noticed one strong enough to move objects in the house.

Weak. Not even worth my time to participate in this thread.

reply to post by br0ker

My proof is math. Energy, time, mass and movement. Remove mass, and you have none of the others.

A photon has energy and no mass.

br0ker
No, no, no.. We ARE mass, we create energy by burning fuel(food). When you die you stop eating = no energy creation. Thereby, life/consiousness-of-self must not be confused with energy.

Bacon... Argh.. Give me!

edit on 11-3-2014 by br0ker because: Bacon

Mass = e=mc2
Mass is just clustered energy..there is nothing except energy.
Your confusing energy with chemical reactions.
This is pretty basic physics understanding

In physics, mass–energy equivalence is the concept that the mass of an object or system is a measure of its energy content. For instance, adding 25 kilowatt-hours (90 megajoules) of any form(s) of energy to any object increases its mass by 1 microgram.

Yes, we are all..all just clumped up, clustered energy. You should be able to crack open any basic physics book and understand that. Learn of the atom and its components, etc.

And we create nothing, we simply transfer energy from one state to another, then at times, back again (if you ever seen the slop they feed pigs, I wouldn't be surprised if some if it..nevermind)

olaru12

br0ker


----

Back to the basics..
Energy=mass in movement
Mass in movement defines time
Movement of mass needs space
Mass needs energy to move

That's high school physics. You didn't read my links did you? Quantum mechanics is a whole new ball game.

edit on 11-3-2014 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

Oh, so that is what I meant by basics. "Facepalm*
Sure.. We've just barely put on the QM diapers. Want to relate what we know about QM and maybe dimensions and alternate universes to dead people, be my guest. I'd prefer everyone going there sooner rather than later. SchrOdinger loves you!