To all who believe in ghosts.. Let me put this myth to rest!

reply to post by Gemwolf


GEMWOLF? Thank you! No wonder why you got the job!

br0ker

Sremmos80

br0ker
reply to post by MrWendal

 

Once in a while one in a billion theorys are proven to be correct. If we follow your saying here we would also put our trust in the 999 999 999 gibbrish ones as well. Is that what you do?

And it was never PROVEN that the earth was flat. It was just a common belief and misconseption. Flock theory if you will..

So why can't ghost existing be one of those? It has not been PROVEN they don't exists, that is just a flock theory ...

edit on thThu, 13 Mar 2014 19:59:17 -0500America/Chicago320141780 by Sremmos80 because: (no reason given)

I'd say you might very well be wrong on that one. 1 in 5 was it? Say that they've seen a ghost. I really think that more than half believe in ghosts. Going out on a limb here, don't have any research to back up the numbers. But if I'm right then the flock is the believers. Just look at this thread.. 99% believe..

As for proving something doesn't exist, thats a fools argument. And there are plenty of people that have gone into "haunted" houses with film/audio/temperature recording equipment and come back with z e r o after weeks of research. Maybe some random static. No film of a transparent guy.. So I guess ghosts are really smart(even without a brain) or just terribly camera shy. So I feel it really is somewhat documented that they do not exist where everyone say they do.

My statement had nothing to do with this thread or who agree/ disagreed with it.
Simply that the theory that ghost exists could be one of the "one in a billion" that is proven right.

Doesn't your OP state that you have proven that they don't exist by the laws of science? Why is it not a fools argument there?

br0ker
Now, I feel it's time I asked all of you a question. Since I cant say that I've seen any working theories here with any kind of basis except belief, faith or the flat out "I've seen them, so yeah!"

And what are the most common explanation to how they can appear and disappear? And how can they be seen or exist in our physical world?

When you answer. Remember the common constraints that usually follows the "ghost label". Like people saying the ghost looks like an old man that slams the doors in the house.

I'm looking forward to the answers. Who knows, maybe someone here can blow my mind and make me adapt a reasonable possibility!?

edit on 13-3-2014 by br0ker because: Added a ?

edit on 13-3-2014 by br0ker because: Expanding

Not sure what all would calla "ghost" , but have some idea of what some would think a ghost is, for also had an experience seeing our family pet in front of the tv in the night, after waking with the premonition I would see a ghost, the room was filled with bubbles, the air was different.

But, I'm not sure if its them that disappear, for our brain is the computer we're interfacing through with many programs, including time, that give us a certain frequency range or spectrum to operate out of. So we don't see all that is. When an experience occurs, is it always the apparition that does the work or is something altered in us to see more?

However here we are limited in our abilities, in body suits without memories, perhaps only slivers of ourselves, ie projecting in. We don't have empowerment or anything like the real world and being ourselves fully, though we have more than we would know here. Thats not to say that entities, spirits or ghosts don't have more empowerment and abilities to manipulate the energy waves and appear or disappear, and its not even to say that technology couldn't be used there as well. Because some of us are of a mind that this is being dead, dead to our memories, dead to our fullness, or akin to a dream state at best, whereas the real world which is far more real and corporal and wonderful than here, awaits us. To be born is to die to self and memories and be entombed in flesh. Dying is waking up from the dream.

So, i don't think its just ET that has technology. But most of higher technology is "mind over matter".

And as for picking something up, "mind over matter".

Sremmos80

br0ker

Sremmos80

br0ker
reply to post by MrWendal

 

Once in a while one in a billion theorys are proven to be correct. If we follow your saying here we would also put our trust in the 999 999 999 gibbrish ones as well. Is that what you do?

And it was never PROVEN that the earth was flat. It was just a common belief and misconseption. Flock theory if you will..

So why can't ghost existing be one of those? It has not been PROVEN they don't exists, that is just a flock theory ...

edit on thThu, 13 Mar 2014 19:59:17 -0500America/Chicago320141780 by Sremmos80 because: (no reason given)

I'd say you might very well be wrong on that one. 1 in 5 was it? Say that they've seen a ghost. I really think that more than half believe in ghosts. Going out on a limb here, don't have any research to back up the numbers. But if I'm right then the flock is the believers. Just look at this thread.. 99% believe..

As for proving something doesn't exist, thats a fools argument. And there are plenty of people that have gone into "haunted" houses with film/audio/temperature recording equipment and come back with z e r o after weeks of research. Maybe some random static. No film of a transparent guy.. So I guess ghosts are really smart(even without a brain) or just terribly camera shy. So I feel it really is somewhat documented that they do not exist where everyone say they do.

My statement had nothing to do with this thread or who agree/ disagreed with it.
Simply that the theory that ghost exists could be one of the "one in a billion" that is proven right.

Doesn't your OP state that you have proven that they don't exist by the laws of science? Why is it not a fools argument there?

There's an equal chance that it's one of the 999999999 other as well.
Does it really say proven? You're a big boy hit the "1" button. It'll take you to the first page.

pikestaff
What puzzles me is that from time to time, out of the corner of an eye, I'll see what I think is the ghost of a cat or dog, but I never catch anything that looks human, different 'wave' length?

Tunnelvision effect and shadowplay.. Everyone sees this. It's not a shy ghost

Forgive me if I sound a bit pugnacious, but it's frustrating to see you (almost) acknowledge my point and then completely disregard it.

br0ker
Really, nice to see all the work you put into saying that science have been proven wrong, and science keeps expanding.

More or less yes. Why not apply this to your view of "things that are impossible"? Something is only impossible until it is no longer impossible. Flight. Electricity. Nuclear power. Space travel. Instant communication across continents. A terabyte of data on a chip the size of a postage stamp. Laser surgery. And so on. All of it was impossible, until someone said that they won't be stopped by the "rules".

A simple "everyone used to think the earth was flat and the sun had orbit around Tellus, would suffice.

Apparently not even my verbosity was enough to get the message across.

Lets just say that it all is totally meaningless if you cant relate it to how ghosts can exist and what you believe they are.

No it's not. Again: "You don't know what you know, until you know what you don't know."
You are trying to apply what you know to the unknown. Square peg in a round hole. You are trying to fit the idea of "ghosts" or spirits or whatever it may be squarely into the concept of mechanical energy. As I said. There may be many different types of energy still unknown to us. Let's say these apparitions has dimensional energy™. Who's to say dimensional energy™ cannot be converted to mechanical energy? You wouldn't know unless dimensional energy™ is eventually discovered and defined. I can't apply what I know because there is some forces unknown to me. And they are only "paranormal" because it has not been defined by science.

In 1798 European adventurers discovered a strange animal. They made sketches of the animal and sent it along with a pelt back to Great Britain. The scientists in England slapped their sides and laughed and laughed at the silly hoax. "Monotremes oviparous, ovum meroblastic." An aquatic mammal that lays eggs?! Preposterous! Yet, today we know that the strange platypus is scientific fact, irrespective of how many "rules" its existence break. The platypus does not conform to many of the rules that classify something as a mammal.

Yes, since the beginning of time those with the supposed "knowledge" have ridiculed those with new and strange ideas. Simply because something didn't fit into their little "Things I think I know" box.

Now I'd like you to take your wide perspective, and consider how many of the energy forms and scientific extrapolations you mentioned have their basis in fundemental rules of physics and laws of nature. Now think of how they fulfill eachother. Sure, you mentioned a couple there we haven't fit in the pussle yet. But, the basics will live on, they might change a bit with the frame, but they will still be fundamental pieces.

Bingo! There you admit it yourself. The idea of ghosts or spirits or apparitions or whatever it is may very well be yet another part of the puzzle that doesn't fit yet. I listed some aknowledged "puzzles". Things that don't fit into the known. Why can't ghosts be another one of those puzzles?

Take ball lightning for instance. It is an unexplained atmospheric electrical phenomenon. Simply because it is such a rare and unobservable event. Up until the 1960s, most scientists argued that ball lightning was not a real phenomenon. Given inconsistencies and lack of reliable data, the true nature of ball lightning is still unknown. Experiments can be done that visually replicate ball lightning, but whether it's the same as the natural thing is still unknown. Heck, only this year - January 2014 - was the first ever optical spectrum of what appears to have been a ball lightning event, published.

You can't build a house without a good foundation. And the universe, if you consider everything we've learnt so far, isn't built without it either.

As for what we don't know, we still put it into our framework. It isn't standalone pieces.

Again - you are limited by what you know. Who's to say that "ghosts et al." don't adhere to the basic laws of physics? Just because you don't know all the variables makes them "mumbojumbo"?
The rules still exist whether someone has written it down or not.
If Einstein never did what he done (and Maxwell and Rømer either) then our ideas of physics would be quite different, I assume, because c wouldn't "exist"? And even here with the written "laws" of physics - such as the speed of light (a fundamental rule) - are broken. There are many scientists coming to the conclusion that perhaps c is not constant...

We (or rather the clever folks) can't even explain gravity without the use of the word "theory", and what is more fundamental than gravity? Now if you can't even explain gravity which is clearly observable everywhere; how do you expect to explain an event such as a "ghost sighting" that is very rarely observed?

So, I repeat: You don't know how much you know until you know how much you don't know.

I (or rather WE) can't explain "ghosts" because there are variants I'm not aware of. One day, perhaps someone will have a Eureka moment and fit another piece of the puzzle. Then we can come back to this discussion and giggle out our own ignorance. Dimensional energy™ - it was so obvious! How did we not see it?! LoL!

There's an equal chance that it's one of the 999999999 other as well.
Does it really say proven? You're a big boy hit the "1" button. It'll take you to the first page.

Sweet, that is what every one wanted you to say
You have now admitted that there is very well a chance that they exist, the very same chance that they don't exist
Which if us "big boys" go back, you tell every one that only the extremely unreasonable would go against what you have to say which is ghost do not fall under the laws of nature so by that fact they could not exist.
You don't say proven but you sure as heck set up an ultimatum

I told the ghost what you said.
Thanks, now the bugger is going to keep me up all night.

mysterioustranger
reply to post by Gemwolf

 

GEMWOLF? Thank you! No wonder why you got the job!

Newest member of the ghostbusters. Congrats!

Sremmos80

There's an equal chance that it's one of the 999999999 other as well.
Does it really say proven? You're a big boy hit the "1" button. It'll take you to the first page.

Sweet, that is what every one wanted you to say

You have now admitted that there is very well a chance that they exist, the very same chance that they don't exist
Which if us "big boys" go back, you tell every one that only the extremely unreasonable would go against what you have to say which is ghost do not fall under the laws of nature so by that fact they could not exist.
You don't say proven but you sure as heck set up an ultimatum

edit on thFri, 14 Mar 2014 03:08:08 -0500America/Chicago320140880 by Sremmos80 because: (no reason given)

No, all you need to do is flip a few pages back and see that I'm referring to one billion THEORYS. And your theory is in my book one of the 999999999 that will never be proven to be correct.

You are correct however that I was correct

Hey brOker, just a quick question.

Do you believe in a God, any God will do, I am not fussy.

Incidentally, I would love to know what was in your deleted post, I assume it was a reply to mine.

Listen, I do not mind if you do not believe in Ghosts. That is up to you. I can celebrate our differences.

But trying to use science (As far as you know it) to disprove something is just not possible. Science is still in its infancy. Think of the scientific community as a bunch of 5 year olds. Instead of 'My Dad's bigger than your Dad' or 'My mums bigger than your mum', you get 'My pet theory has more acceptance than your trashy theory.'

You need petulance to fit right in the scientific community. When they run out of arguments they call each other names, much as you are doing here.

Try celebrating the differences we all have.

P

reply to post by br0ker


I think after 11 pages it's time you at least admitted one thing ... the title of your thread is WRONG because there is NO WAY you are ever going to put this so-called 'myth' to rest because there are too many people (myself included) who have had valid experiences and to whom it is a 'reality' ... it's a cliché but it's true that for me the 'paranormal' is my 'normal'. This means that this thread has become pointless ... you will never be able to convince a person who has had a firsthand experience to doubt or deny that experience ... likewise we will never convince you to change your mind ... only a personal experience for you can do that and I really would love to be a fly on the wall when your very own haunting comes to call. lol

Throughout the thread you have contradicted yourself many times ... but your mind will stay closed ... that's a shame because you will miss so much by living your life in such a confined space ... only when you dare to step outside of the comfort of those confines can you hope to live life to the full. You have tried to use science to show us the error of our ways ... well I too have studied Natural Earth Sciences at degree level ... so as one scientific mind to another you should be aware that a scientist must remain eternally flexible ... they must be prepared to adjust / change / update / disregard hypotheses and theories as new information is discovered ... one thing a scientist cannot possess is a closed mind !

One piece of advise I would offer you to carry through life to avoid disappointment (and the potential to look foolish) is NEVER SAY NEVER !

Woody )O(

br0ker
reply to post by MrWendal

 

So I guess ghosts are really smart(even without a brain) or just terribly camera shy. So I feel it really is somewhat documented that they do not exist where everyone say they do.

he's really hung up on this physical brain thing. "but, how do they do stuff with no brain?!" LOL

the brain is for control and operation of it's vessel, the human body.

the spirit needs no such thing.

you've been distracted by the shadows on the wall in your cave for too long. come out to the light....

reply to post by woodwytch

I'm actually saying never, right now. As for namecalling, the only true name calling I believe is me answering rude posts.

Now, I do not believe in any kind of God. I feel people in dispair should seek to themselves for saviour rather than God. The positive side with believing in God though, for people who do, is the power of faith. It gives motivation and will, as well as individual comfort. If we are to go by what is written in the bible, then God is egotistical when creating us. Why create us, was he lonely? Needed a pet? If you give God the personality to create then you would have to assume that all other attributes should be present as well. And the same goes for God as all other intelligence, a brain is needed. And the brain is a physical attribute. So if he created our world, then who is above him and created the universe? If anyone did, they are something other than space, time and matter. And that is pretty far fetched.

Cant remember deleting any posts, started a few and pushed the back button on my iphone (iphone sucks btw), but that is because I actually have a job and more pressing things than having fun discussing ghosts.

The last point someone made here was pointing out that I LOST this argument. I'm assuming he meant my thread. In his eyes I lost because of all people here saying they've seen ghosts.
To him all I have to say is this: If you blindly accept every story you hear as fitting into the descrpition of a ghost, then you have absolutely no critereas for disseminating presented information. There could be litterally thousands of individual factors and exogen factors influencing their experience. You need a framework for screening before blindly accepting everything a person tells you. So good luck with that.

Lastly I want to appologize for every spelling error in this thread. I'm not from an english/US country and the only english I know is from school and movies. I do however speak pretty fluent american if anyone wants to talk.

Don't let the boogyman getcha!!! And if you ever cet scared that a ghost is gonna getcha in the night, just think of me I've spent a night in a famous haunted house in my country, and there was nada that wasn't totally explainable. I've also spent hundreds of night by my self in the woods. And when something goes bump in the night it's natural..... Or an animal

Have a great weekend all believers and non-believers!

reply to post by Gemwolf


Om my god....

The pussle is what we already know about reality, not your fictional ghost energy.

br0ker

Sremmos80

There's an equal chance that it's one of the 999999999 other as well.
Does it really say proven? You're a big boy hit the "1" button. It'll take you to the first page.

Sweet, that is what every one wanted you to say

You have now admitted that there is very well a chance that they exist, the very same chance that they don't exist
Which if us "big boys" go back, you tell every one that only the extremely unreasonable would go against what you have to say which is ghost do not fall under the laws of nature so by that fact they could not exist.
You don't say proven but you sure as heck set up an ultimatum

edit on thFri, 14 Mar 2014 03:08:08 -0500America/Chicago320140880 by Sremmos80 because: (no reason given)

No, all you need to do is flip a few pages back and see that I'm referring to one billion THEORYS. And your theory is in my book one of the 999999999 that will never be proven to be correct.

You are correct however that I was correct

edit on 14-3-2014 by br0ker because: ..

There's an equalual chance that it's one of the 999999999 other as well.

But.... you just said that the idea of ghost existing has the equal odds as the idea of them not existing.... So now I am really confused....
I say the theory has a chance to be the "one" and then you say it has EQUAL chance to be not the one...???
It doesn't matter the number you attach to it, I get the trick you are doing though, I was in sales and i would break things down to a ridiculous number all the time
By your own admission ghost have the same odds of existing as the odds of them not existing.
Don't fall down in your backpedal

reply to post by br0ker

Ah good...at last. Then you do agree yours is in that majority! I suspected you'd admit your error sooner or later...but doesnt that make the thread borderline pointless?

Unless its only a myth....as you say....

br0ker
reply to post by Gemwolf

 

Om my god....

The pussle is what we already know about reality, not your fictional ghost energy.

Dear sir. Consider this: You came up with one sentence in response to my post. I presented you with facts, examples and hypotheticals... And you came back with one sentence? Couldn't you even pretend that you actually had an argument?

It is clear that you are not interested in either debate or critical thinking. Or perhaps you don't even bother to read?
I know you will find this hard to accept, but your opening post is pure conjecture. Your opening statement has been disproved time and again - not necessarily by me, but by our excellent members' wisdom, insight and experience. Sorry, I know it's not what you wanted to hear nor will it be easy to accept.

I don't know what your background is, nor does it matter. I can offer you this advice: If you are considering a career in science, I suggest you reconsider. A scientist that is unwilling to accept that there are variables and unknowns is bound to fail. The purpose of science or a scientist is to explore and break the bounds of the known into the unknown. A scientist is also willing to learn (whilst thinking critically!) - from others and from experience. A scientist that is merely repeating what is known over and over again is called a teacher (no offense meant towards teachers!).

Perhaps you should consider being an accountant? There you only have to work with constant numbers and credits will always equal debits and everything remains constant. No imagination required.

I bid you good luck with you ghost busting as I clearly don't have the ability to shed some light on this matter for you.

Hopefully this post will make you do some self-examination? Well, one can hope.

Why did the ghost cross the road?
To get to the other side obviously.

br0ker
reply to post by woodwytch

 

I'm actually saying never, right now.

So you are actually changing your original statement by admitting the possibility of paranormal activity e.g; ghosts might be acknowledged as a personal reality in the future ?

This is where I get confused because the whole premise of your thread was to denounce 'ghosts' by putting the 'mythical' subject to rest (wasn't it) ?

As for namecalling, the only true name calling I believe is me answering rude posts.

Can you please tell me where exactly I was guilty of name-calling and please point out what was 'rude' about any of my posts to you on this thread. If you genuinely think I have been rude to you then you should report me to the moderators as this is against ATS T&C's

I can only assume the rest of your post was meant for other posters as I never asked you if you believed in a God etc.

Woody )O(

Forgive me if I sound a bit pugnacious, but it's frustrating to see you (almost) acknowledge my point and then completely disregard it.

The only point you make that I acknowledge is the fact that science moves on - but ghosts aren`t science. Ghosts might be thousands of different phenomenons from blurry vision to a dream. People have labeled these events to "ghosts" when they see a something resembling a dead person. They then take a leap and say this is a soul/spirit, something that is based on exactly zero. The facts we know is that they are labeled good spirits and bad spirits. They haunt you or just stay there. They move things and make sounds in walls / floors. And they also say you can see them... based on what exactly? There is 7 billion people in the world, engaging in all kinds of events and situations. People see things all the time. But labeling an experienced event that hasn`t been researched and proven right, as a dead persons spirit/soul, just isn`t scientific in ANY way.

br0ker Really, nice to see all the work you put into saying that science have been proven wrong, and science keeps expanding.

More or less yes. Why not apply this to your view of "things that are impossible"? Something is only impossible until it is no longer impossible. Flight. Electricity. Nuclear power. Space travel. Instant communication across continents. A terabyte of data on a chip the size of a postage stamp. Laser surgery. And so on. All of it was impossible, until someone said that they won't be stopped by the "rules".

So everyone said flight, electricity or nuclear power was impossible?
Did birds fly back then? I sure hope they did, if not, me and you are on two different planets.
Did lightning strike back then? I don`t really think.
Did anybody at all recognize nuclear power until scientists blasted the first atom bomb? It wasn`t really like everyone was running around saying they`d seen a nuclear blast in the bedroom.

Basically you`re just saying the same as always, that science makes new discoveries. Do I sound like I don`t know what you`re saying?

No, I`m saying that non-mass can`t reflect light - so it can`t be seen. Ergo - not a dead persons soul without mass you`ve seen.
I am also saying that no mass can`t move mass - so a dead persons soul can`t open a cubborn.

The thing is, if you say a ghost is pure energy (not a form of contained energy like mass or electricity), then it simply is nothing but a dream.

I read all your examples, and like I said, I don`t see the relevance other than the point I said you already made.
Namely, that things no one thought of gets discovered by science. Because the majority of science is in fact that. Seldom do someone find exactly what they thought or looked for. So let me just say, that I do believe that you might find some explanation for your ghosts. But I bet all I own that it won`t be the "soul/spirit" of a dead person that`s doing those things.

Now I'd like you to take your wide perspective, and consider how many of the energy forms and scientific extrapolations you mentioned have their basis in fundemental rules of physics and laws of nature. Now think of how they fulfill eachother. Sure, you mentioned a couple there we haven't fit in the pussle yet. But, the basics will live on, they might change a bit with the frame, but they will still be fundamental pieces.

Bingo! There you admit it yourself. The idea of ghosts or spirits or apparitions or whatever it is may very well be yet another part of the puzzle that doesn't fit yet. I listed some aknowledged "puzzles". Things that don't fit into the known. Why can't ghosts be another one of those puzzles?

When I say a couple there we haven`t fit into the puzzle yet I`m talking about facts we do know exist - but don`t know how they work. You are saying that ghosts(souls of dead people) is a fact. Even though there is NO evidence that shows that GHOSTS exist.

First of all, it needs to be a piece of the puzzle. It`s never been proven that ghosts (souls/spirits of dead people) even is a piece. Next, you`re assuming that it`s a specific piece that defies everything we know so far... I say again, it defies EVERYTHING we know in and about the universe. It`s not like it`s based on a birds flight, or the power given from lightning. It defies E V E R Y T H I N G.

You are a bodily mass, your brain defines your consciousness. Evolution has given you instincts to cope with your surroundings. Then you through evolution start to develop intelligence to use reasoning through the use of tools by repetition. You aren`t energy, and what keeps you going is food that you have evolved into processing energy from. All that energy comes from mass. The mass that`s left when you die is in fact energy, known energy that gets released as you decompose. Your consciousness is gone, you no longer have any ability to think.

Now, people here think that spirits can haunt them, and that you can see them. This is what you`re approving. This is what I`m objecting. I am not objecting that science makes new discoveries. I am however objecting how you draw parallels about brick on brick based science, and without anything further say that this is an UNKNOWN that WILL be CONFIRMED as FACT.

Either it will never come to be, simply because it isn`t - like I say.
Or it already exists, and might be proven - like you say.

I have explained throughout this thread what I believe, why it is so, and thereby why I think I will be correct.

You sir, have accepted something that has not even been proven to exist as fact. Then you say that even though it is an unknown, it will be proven to be exactly a spirit/soul of a dead person. And that again is without there being any proof that a sould/spirit even exists other than in tales.