A farewell to religion.

FlyersFan
those on the left say I"m too conservative. Those on the right say I"m too liberal. I get called a 'piece of garbage atheist' by the religious extremists and I get called other negative names by the militant atheists.

I get the feeling that most of us are actually in this grey zone area. Depending on who it is that I'm talking to I end up the same as you. What's stupid is that I even explain and show examples to counter their "labels" but they just don't want to hear it. It's so much easier for them to tag you with some label to easily identify you in their minds whether accurate or not. In fact I doubt there are all that many people out there that actually would fit just one side or the other. Most everyone has at least some right and left beliefs. Yet what happens is once someone hears you say one small part of something they label you and from then on you're stuck with it because they refuse to even allow for their label to be questioned.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I get called a 'piece of garbage atheist' by the religious extremists and I get called other negative names by the militant atheists. The two groups don't realize they are two sides of the same extremist coin. I'd laugh if it weren't such a sad commentary about humanity.

It really is silly, though, sad as it is.
And if we don't laugh about it once in awhile we'd all weep ourselves dry.

Try to think of it maybe, if you like, as those people who call you hateful names being the ones who were not given the broad education that anyone in our culture (I'm in the US) has the freedom to obtain....
if they had been brought up to tolerate difference cultures, to feel free to explore without fear of being rejected, they wouldn't be like that.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by greencmp

 

I don't think we do. Freedom of religion does not mean prevalence for religion. While religion is still a very real danger to society in a variety of ways mirrored by any number of political or economical movements, it does not have the ear of the government in quite the way you seem to be implying.

Actually they do have a target (in invisible ink) writen on their backs (the throw the hands in the air, why did we do this); the 'separation of Church and State' mandates no religious group have to pay taxes; and there are many 'church societies/cults' avoiding taxation within constitutional law). L. Ron Hubbard is lost at sea supposedly on his multimillion dollar yacht (NOT) in avoidence of having to face criminal tax evasion charges for his 'church' based creation based in (his field of) Science Fiction writings (who would have thought).

Let's just say it was raising children the common bad way with a little bit of misintrepreted religion.

If a child is raised "religious" and it never gained and was stimulated to faith, what kind of religion is that?

FlyersFan
What YOU say is baseless regional and inherited superstitions ... is REALITY to others.
And you could easily be the one who is wrong ... not them.

Well you see there's the problem in a nutshell.......people taking baseless regional and inherited superstitions and teaching their children that those same things are infact reality when there is no evidence nor any good reason whatsoever to do so.

Beliefs are not facts...

Example - I KNOW there is a God from my own experiences.

Yeah I read your tale, you claim you heard a spooky voice one time......unconvincing to say the least. Religious people of every kind from aborigines to mormons have not met their burden of proof when it comes to such claims, and they cannot all be true.....

People like you would say that I was teaching 'inherited superstitions'. But they'd be WRONG.
Those that say 'there is no god' or 'it's abuse to teach children to pray the rosary', etc ... they are wrong.

Well I guess that's that then?

You and I have no right to tell others what they can or can not teach their children in regards to religion.
And those that believe in God or an afterlife, they'd say that YOU were abusing children by taking away
their right to raise their children in 'the truth'.

I don't claim to have the authority to do such a thing, however I still consider religious indoctrination of a child to be abuse.

And those that believe in God or an afterlife, they'd say that YOU were abusing children by taking away
their right to raise their children in 'the truth'.

Those same people would have (like yourself) no good reason to hold the beliefs they have. And until they do have a good reason they have no business telling anyone else that what they believe is 'the truth'.

Bottom line - Parents can teach their children whatever religion they want to. You have no right to interfere ... and you could easily be just as wrong with your beliefs in this area as you think the religious people are wrong in their beliefs.

Like I said, beliefs are just beliefs and are not facts.....and if a parent is teaching their children that their beliefs are true and correct, and that they (the children) should also consider what their parents are telling them as the truth, then they're lying one way or another to their children and indoctrinating them into a particular and unsubstantiated view of reality.

And this isn't always something that can be 'shrugged off'.....

Prezbo369
Yeah I read your tale, you claim you heard a spooky voice one time......unconvincing to say the least.

Snarky, condescending and obviously you don't want to understand what I posted. I didn't say a 'spooky voice'. You wouldn't believe anything that runs counter to your biased opinion anyways. Whatever.

I still consider religious indoctrination of a child to be abuse.

So you have said .. over and over. You are welcome to your erroneous opinion as long as you don't try to interfere in the lives of others. It's none of your damn business.

until they do have a good reason they have no business telling anyone else that what they believe is 'the truth'.

Funny guy.
It's a parents business how they raise their children. NOT YOURS.
YOU are the one with no business interfering.


extremist atheists are just as obnoxious as extremist religious people.
Both think they are smarter than the other.
And yet neither are exactly the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree.

FlyersFan
Snarky, condescending and obviously you don't want to understand what I posted. I didn't say a 'spooky voice'. You wouldn't believe anything that runs counter to your biased opinion anyways. Whatever.

What you posted wasn't that hard to understand to be honest, and yes I would believe anything that runs counter to my preconceptions.........even your tale........just aslong as evidence is presented.

Your mere word (or anybody else's for that matter) is not enough.

So you have said .. over and over. You are welcome to your erroneous opinion as long as you don't try to interfere in the lives of others. It's none of your damn business.

You know, just because you state that something is wrong (or right), it doesn't necessarily make it so....

Funny guy.
It's a parents business how they raise their children. NOT YOURS.
YOU are the one with no business interfering.

We're not talking about how to raise a child, we're talking about religious indoctrination of young children before they're able to tell fantasy (or belief) from fact.

extremist atheists are just as obnoxious as extremist religious people.
Both think they are smarter than the other.
And yet neither are exactly the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree.

Lol calling those that do not agree with you extreme and obnoxious?......I guess that's par for the course

Prezbo369
You know, just because you state that something is wrong (or right), it doesn't necessarily make it so....

I suggest you read that and take it to heart ... go look in the mirror while reading it.

We're not talking about how to raise a child, we're talking about religious indoctrination of young children before they're able to tell fantasy (or belief) from fact.

Yes that's trying to dictate how to raise a child. Again .. it's none of your business if a family wishes to raise a child in their faith. And as far as they are concerned, YOU are the one who would be doing the (atheist) indoctrination by withholding information from THEIR children. Key word ... THEIR children. Not yours. Maybe someday when you grow up and have a family of your own, then you'll understand how parents have a right to raise their own children as they see fit. You wouldn't want some yutz with an inflated ego from the internet to be able to come in and dictate to you that your children have to be taught that Noahs Ark is real ... and likewise the people raising children in their faith don't want some yutz with an inflated ego from the internet to come in and dictate that they can't tell their children about God. Same/same.

calling those that do not agree with you extreme and obnoxious?......I guess that's par for the course

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck .... and dude, you ARE extreme.

reply to post by BuzzyWigs


Valid points.

However what I was saying is: Religion as such doesn't lead to stupidity or evil as has been proclaimed by many. I know many religious people who are very smart and very kind; some are stupid and unkind. The same can be said of non-religious people. There are good and bad examples across the entire spectrum. This being the case, it cannot be said that religion qua religion or irreligion qua irreligion, are the cause of any type of specific behaviour. Something other than religion, perhaps some ideological impulse, perhaps two-thousand plus years of Platonic thought, perhaps credulity, perhaps language itself, is the cause.

That being said, I believe the religious mentality, the acting out of religious tendencies (adherence to routine, adherence to strict sets of customs, conviction, obedience to specific norms, superstition, submission to certain authorities, slander of nature, and the outward expression of such) is prevalent throughout society, and can manifest in nationalism, sports fanaticism, popular rhetoric, love of particular brands, commercialism, consumerism, politics, etc.

The underlying theme of this mentality is not unlike that of the organize religions. A deity, or in the case of the non-religious, some all-encompassing concept with no actual existence or of any actual value (money, economy, country, ideology, the state) is valued more than real actual living beings, just as some value God more than themselves. It's superstition towards ideas. People will kill each other, concrete existing things, for what amounts to no more than an idea (freedom, democracy, security, God).

Aphorism

Good for them using their god given mind to turn away from the evil that is religion.

I find it somewhat superstitious to say that religion is evil. As an institution, it is powerless; it is incapable of evil deeds and is wholly innocent. Let's not make the mistake of inventing more gods. Also, religion has zero power over an individual. The only thing influencing the individual is other individuals and himself, whether religious or not. I think its time to find a proper scapegoat for our indignation. Religion is a symptom, not a cause. Our coughs don't cause our colds. Let's seek out the cause and not the symptom.

So the crusades (Knights Templar exacting) were deemed merely a superstitious cultish endevour; in the attempt to protect 'Christian Pilgrim travelers" from the Turkish Moslem invaders". What do you devine as evil in intent to kill or thwart these pilgamages. Religion is just a symptom of the disease; that which can be manipulated/controlled (an ideaform/that can be turned into a dogmatism/then into states LAW). Yes lets invent more falsities/more demi-gods.

FlyersFan
Yes that's trying to dictate how to raise a child.

You seem to think that raising a child and religious indoctrination are mutually exclusive.........when they're clearly not. Religion is completely irrelevant and unnecessary when it comes to bringing up a child, it's just some parents choose to indoctrinate their children before they have a choice in the matter, warping their sense of reality.

Again .. it's none of your business if a family wishes to raise a child in their faith.

If it's abuse......then it's everybody's business....

And as far as they are concerned, YOU are the one who would be doing the (atheist) indoctrination by withholding information from THEIR children.

I wouldn't be withholding any information whatsoever, all the information about all the worlds religions should be taught. I just wouldn't be telling anyone's children that my opinion and my conclusion are 'the truth', I'd leave them to sieve through the evidence and come up with their own conclusion.

Maybe someday when you grow up and have a family of your own, then you'll understand how parents have a right to raise their own children as they see fit.

Again your confusing the upbringing of a child with optional, unnecessary and abusive religious indoctrination.

You wouldn't want some yutz with an inflated ego from the internet to be able to come in and dictate to you that your children have to be taught that Noahs Ark is real ... and likewise the people raising children in their faith don't want some yutz with an inflated ego from the internet to come in and dictate that they can't tell their children about God. Same/same.

I'll refer you to a reply made to you by another poster........(the irony is thick here...)

BuzzyWigs
reply to [url= by FlyersFan[/url]

 

I get called a 'piece of garbage atheist' by the religious extremists and I get called other negative names by the militant atheists. The two groups don't realize they are two sides of the same extremist coin. I'd laugh if it weren't such a sad commentary about humanity.

It really is silly, though, sad as it is.
And if we don't laugh about it once in awhile we'd all weep ourselves dry.
Try to think of it maybe, if you like, as those people who call you hateful names being the ones who were not given the broad education that anyone in our culture (I'm in the US) has the freedom to obtain....
if they had been brought up to tolerate difference cultures, to feel free to explore without fear of being rejected, they wouldn't be like that.

You whine about being called bad names by other posters, then on the very same page you do the very same thing. Pity you didn't hear a voice that said 'NO' or something like that...

Prezbo369
If it's abuse......then it's everybody's business....

Parents teaching children that there is a God is not abuse. That's your error in thought.

You whine about being called bad names by other posters, then on the very same page you do the very same thing.

I'm not calling you names. I'm stating a fact. You are an extremist. Anyone who would take parental rights away from people simply because they are teaching THEIR OWN CHILDREN something you disagree with .. that's an extremist. You own it.

FlyersFan
Parents teaching children that there is a God is not abuse. That's your error in thought.

They're teaching their children that their own superstitions are true, with no evidence or even a good reason. They're telling their children what to think, and not how to think. Religious indoctrination is something a lot of people never really 'shrug off', and stays with them their whole lives. And it's completely unnecessary and abusive.

I'm not calling you names. I'm stating a fact.

Do you have problems discerning the difference between a stating fact and attempting to be verbally abusive?

Are you not honest enough to admit to what you were doing?

You are an extremist. Anyone who would take parental rights away from people simply because they are teaching THEIR OWN CHILDREN something you disagree with .. that's an extremist. You own it.

Religious indoctrination is not a parental right, it's something religious parents inflict on their own (and other peoples) children.

Why do you have such a problem with allowing children and young adults to decide for themselves what to believe (or not)?

Prezbo369
They're teaching their children that their own superstitions are true, with no evidence or even a good reason.

Says you. It's YOUR opinion that telling children there is a god is 'superstitious'.
As far as they are concerned, teaching children that there is a god is the truth and you are wrong.
They ... like me ... have our own experiences that say there is a God. You reject them.
That's your choice.

Religious indoctrination is not a parental right,

Yes it is. You are the one who has no right to interfere in how a person raises their child. And no .. it's not 'abuse' to teach a child there is a god. Again .. when you grow up and have children, you won't be wanting some yutz to come along and teach them things you disagree with. Ditto for the parents who teach their children about God. You have no right to take their rights away. Someday, if you have children, you'll understand. Obviously you can't understand that now.

Why do you have such a problem with allowing children and young adults to decide for themselves what to believe (or not)?

Go look in the mirror and repeat those words to yourself. That's what you are doing.

Obviously you are incapable of understanding the situation and you wish to impose your own views about religion on others - something you are whining about others doing. Unreasonable, intolerant, intrusive and closed minded. Not worth any more of my time. /out

FlyersFan
Says you. It's YOUR opinion that telling children there is a god is 'superstitious'.
As far as they are concerned, teaching children that there is a god is the truth and you are wrong.
They ... like me ... have our own experiences that say there is a God. You reject them.
That's your choice.

Teaching children to accept claims that have no evidence whatsoever to back them up (such as yours) is an abuse of the parental position and is teaching them to be gullible. Indoctrinating them into a religion or cult before children are able to tell fantasy from fact is an abuse of that position and should be shunned.

Yes it is. You are the one who has no right to interfere in how a person raises their child. And no .. it's not 'abuse' to teach a child there is a god.

Once more, teaching your child to accept claims that have no evidence whatsoever to back them up (such as yours) is an abuse of the parental position and is teaching them to be gullible.

Again .. when you grow up and have children, you won't be wanting some yutz to come along and teach them things you disagree with.

Whether or not I personally agree with something is irrelevant, whether something can be backed up and substantiated with evidence is of great relevance.......and there you go with the name calling again.....are you capable of discussing something you disagree with in a civil manner? Or is it that spooky voice telling you to do it?

Ditto for the parents who teach their children about God. You have no right to take their rights away. Someday, if you have children, you'll understand. Obviously you can't understand that now.

Having brought up three children of my own I can honestly say I think i understand more than most. Ive never told any of them what to think in regards to the claims of a god or any such claim, that's up to them and them alone.....

It's plain to see that the reverse wasn't the case for yourself

Go look in the mirror and repeat those words to yourself. That's what you are doing.

Now you're either being grossly dishonest here, or you've just not kept up with the discussion. I've not once said that children should not be able to decide for themselves, infact i've gone to great pains to say the opposite many times and anyone reading this thread or anyone paying attention would note that it's plain to see.

Obviously you are incapable of understanding the situation and you wish to impose your own views about religion on others - something you are whining about others doing. Unreasonable, intolerant, intrusive and closed minded. Not worth any more of my time. /out

Yeah no, this is what's called projection

reply to post by Prezbo369


The Book that we've had since coming out of the Dark Ages is evidence enough for me.

"Child Abuse".....

I guess telling your kids there is a Santa is child abuse also? Get real.

Have you ever actually read the Bible? It's powerful, and "alive", and just as relevant now as it was 400 years ago. Also, without the internet, if you're from the US, it's pretty much the only religion you'd be exposed to. For the past 400 years. For millions and millions and millions of people.

graphuto
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

The Book that we've had since coming out of the Dark Ages is evidence enough for me.

You mean the book that created and kept us in the dark ages?

The book written by murdering, pillaging jews?

A book isn't evidence of anything other than someone once put pen to paper*

*the anonymous author may have used other means.

"Child Abuse"

I've explained why I consider religious indoctrination of impressionable children to be abuse, maybe you could go further than the previous poster I was replying to and actually explain why it isn't?

Get out of here, please...

Pitchforks already?

Don't be scared, it's ok.....to doubt can be very healthy.

I guess telling your kids there is a Santa is child abuse also? Get real.

'real' lol

As long as you allow your children to eventually use their critical thinking skills and come to the conclusion that santa is made up, no it's not. Whereas in the case of a god and religious indoctrination, the parents reinforce the belief well into adult life. Add to this the various threats made by gods and the unethical laws set by religious scribbles, and you'll notice the two examples (gods and santa) are not comparable at all.

Have you ever actually read the Bible? It's powerful, and "alive", and just as relevant now as it was 400 years ago. Also, without the internet, if you're from the US, it's pretty much the only religion you'd be exposed to. For the past 400 years. For millions and millions and millions of people.

Unlike most christians yes I have read the bible, all of it from cover to cover. I found it to be exactly what it is, an ancient text written by primitive and debased people in an illiterate part of the world.

For hundreds of years most bible believing Americans couldn't even read, but their indoctrination as children made sure they we believers in 'the truth'...

reply to post by Prezbo369


Just because some people twisted the words to commit atrocities doesn't mean that you can discount the Book. ANYONE who has actually read it can look at it and see that what the Roman Catholics did in the Dark Ages isn't in line with what's written.

Period.

reply to post by graphuto


If you were born in Japan you would be a Shintoist, If born in the Middle east Muslim.
Just because it is the only religion you have been exposed to doesn't mean it is the right one.
None of them are not one religion comes from God but man...you have fallen for another mans version of God.
To me this is lazy God gave us a mind to figure it out ourselves, no need to share what you figure out because it is personal to each of us.
Religion is a tool for others to make you do what they want.

reply to post by boymonkey74


I'd like for you to show me some examples of how Christianity might be used (keeping in mind that we all now have access to the Bible to read for ourselves) to "control" in a bad or wrong way.

Also, the Bible has been available in just about every language in just about every country for QUITE some time at this point.

It wouldn't have been lazy 20 years ago, it'd be about the only thing the layman had access to.