A farewell to religion.

Prezbo369
Some (including myself) consider such brainwashing to be child abuse. Children should be allowed to decide themselves at an older age whether or not to accept superstitions as truth.

None of us have a right to tell parents what they should and should not teach their children in regards to religion. You may consider it abusive for parents to teach their children to pray a rosary or to volunteer at a homeless shelter with a church group ... but it's really none of your business and it's not the business of the government either.

Just because we disagree with what is being taught .. that doesn't make it abuse.

I feel bad for the people raised in extremist religious households. I really do. But the parents have the right to teach their children as they see fit. Otherwise, the government will be doing it ... and that's also a very frightening prospect.

In this day and age, and in the West where people are more free with information, when children become adults and get out on their own, they have the ability to shake off the teachings they don't like. It's not the same in 'Muslim' countries. But at least in the West, people can leave behind that which they wish to as they mature and are out on their own.

Good for them using their god given mind to turn away from the evil that is religion.

I find it somewhat superstitious to say that religion is evil. As an institution, it is powerless; it is incapable of evil deeds and is wholly innocent. Let's not make the mistake of inventing more gods. Also, religion has zero power over an individual. The only thing influencing the individual is other individuals and himself, whether religious or not.

I think its time to find a proper scapegoat for our indignation. Religion is a symptom, not a cause. Our coughs don't cause our colds. Let's seek out the cause and not the symptom.

Aphorism

Good for them using their god given mind to turn away from the evil that is religion.

I find it somewhat superstitious to say that religion is evil. As an institution, it is powerless; it is incapable of evil deeds and is wholly innocent. Let's not make the mistake of inventing more gods. Also, religion has zero power over an individual. The only thing influencing the individual is other individuals and himself, whether religious or not.

I think its time to find a proper scapegoat for our indignation. Religion is a symptom, not a cause. Our coughs don't cause our colds. Let's seek out the cause and not the symptom.

I tend to agree. Religion, like government, is utterly powerless without people there to say, "Yes, we will not only agree to this, we will actively uphold it."

FlyersFan
None of us have a right to tell parents what they should and should not teach their children in regards to religion.

In regards to religion as a topic of study? of course parents should be allowed to teach them all about it.

But in regards to the nature of reality, claims of an afterlife and which god to worship, why and all the superstitions in between? No, a child, a person should be able to decide for themselves without the considerable influence of their parents.

[quote]You may consider it abusive for parents to teach their children to pray a rosary or to volunteer at a homeless shelter with a church group ... but it's really none of your business and it's not the business of the government either.

Teaching a child to pray to a god does come under what I'm talking about in regards to abuse yes, but volunteering at a homeless shelter is not a religious activity and has no bearing on this discussion.

Religion does not have a monopoly on doing good things, although I am aware that people are taught that it does...

Just because we disagree with what is being taught .. that doesn't make it abuse.

Passing on baseless, regional and inherited superstitions to a child by it's parents at an early age can warp a child's perception of reality. I consider that to be abuse.

I feel bad for the people raised in extremist religious households. I really do. But the parents have the right to teach their children as they see fit. Otherwise, the government will be doing it ... and that's also a very frightening prospect.

Parents don't have to right to teach their children whatever they see fit, I'm sure you can think of examples of parents teaching their children abhorrent and disgusting practices and habits that we both agree would and should lead to the children being taken away from them.

And if the prospect of schools teaching our children frightens you......maybe you're part of the problem?

In this day and age, and in the West where people are more free with information, when children become adults and get out on their own, they have the ability to shake off the teachings they don't like. It's not the same in 'Muslim' countries. But at least in the West, people can leave behind that which they wish to as they mature and are out on their own.

I think you're being quite naive to say that a religious upbringing can be merely shrugged or 'shaken off'.

And pointing to another countries/religions practices and saying 'look at them they're worse' doesn't help your case.

Prezbo369
Passing on baseless, regional and inherited superstitions to a child by it's parents at an early age can warp a child's perception of reality. I consider that to be abuse.

What YOU say is baseless regional and inherited superstitions ... is REALITY to others.
And you could easily be the one who is wrong ... not them.

Example - I KNOW there is a God from my own experiences.
People like you would say that I was teaching 'inherited superstitions'. But they'd be WRONG.
Those that say 'there is no god' or 'it's abuse to teach children to pray the rosary', etc ... they are wrong.
You and I have no right to tell others what they can or can not teach their children in regards to religion.
And those that believe in God or an afterlife, they'd say that YOU were abusing children by taking away
their right to raise their children in 'the truth'.

And if the prospect of schools teaching our children frightens you......maybe you're part of the problem?

Oh knock it off.

Bottom line - Parents can teach their children whatever religion they want to. You have no right to interfere ... and you could easily be just as wrong with your beliefs in this area as you think the religious people are wrong in their beliefs.

reply to post by Aphorism

Religion is a symptom, not a cause. Our coughs don't cause our colds. Let's seek out the cause and not the symptom.

I think I understand what you're saying -
still, there are complications of the symptom of religiosity that could be alleviated (never have occurred) if the symptom itself is quarantined. Our coughs don't cause our colds - but sending a kid to school with a cough can infect everyone around them.

It's important to recognize what the symptoms are, and then deconstruct them to identify the attacking organism and find a cure for the malady. Religion when imposed on small children becomes something that is nearly impossible to discard later. A person who had chicken pox didn't get the shot as an infant - is likely to develop shingles later.

The staph and herpes viruses can lay dormant, but they never really die. Same, in my unimportant opinion, with religion.
We don't encourage little kids to drink alcohol, because it interferes with their development. I believe indoctrination (exposure) into only one religion, when done in combination with (or rather, fertilizing it by) using shame, fear, hatred of others, and improbable stories told as truth and other ideas treated as weeds or toxins is dangerous.

I don't believe small children need to be exposed to it, any more than they should be babysat (?babysitted?) by drunken Uncle Joe and taught how to pour him another whiskey and hold his hair while he barfs it all up later.

Think of religion as a language. We learn language very young - it becomes our native tongue. If we had the good fortune to be taught more than one language, we are then able to communicate with a whole new group of people that would otherwise be out of our territory. If we learn only one, we are possibly forever denied the ability to communicate with others who don't share our language.

If a child is reared with violence, intimidation, bullying, right by might, that is what they will develop - first by being exposed to it perhaps as a witness, and later as a victim; then often they will harm others in kind. I don't see anything positive in teaching small children the idea of a punitive, vengeful, angry, unpredictable Overparent, who might just as easily smite a child dead as smite his beloved parents - as fact.

FlyersFan

Example - I KNOW there is a God from my own experiences.

So you're saying you have or had direct and fully aware direct contact with the Divine God Him/Herself??? Could you detail that out for us doubters???

reply to post by FlyersFan

You can not say that YOU know there is a god unless you meet this god personally. Until then what you said has 0 leverage on this thread.

Thats the same Thing as saying I know Bigfoot exists, but I have never seen one and have no proof but i got this book that says he is real.

or..

believing in santa because of the book a night before christmas... when your an adult.

by your theory, it should be ok to teach children how to make and use drugs, how to drive underage, how to smoke ect and the government should not say anything?

The point is a child should not have to worry about eternal damnation at least not until they are in there teens. You can educate them about all religions up till then. But you should not be placing HUGE burdens on a precious little xhild who is like a spounge. If you truely cared about their well being you should focus more time educating your child instead of brainwashing im in to a cult ( whats the difference, legal status thats it).

The military does the same thing with its personel to make sure the follow orders. you spend weeks at basic training where you are submursed in that life style, that frame of mind. By the end of basic you are transformed into another mindless brainwashed drone puppet of the "deomocratic" government.

just think how great the world could of been if people spent less time worshiping ancient gods and spent more time learning how to advance human knowledge.

Religion and Money are the two most evil things created by MAN.

mOjOm
So you're saying you have or had direct and fully aware direct contact with the Divine God Him/Herself???

Yes. Once.

Could you detail that out for us doubters???

About 20 years ago. I was driving my car - not thinking about God or deep religious things or anything like that. I was thinking about a friend of mine who was a nun. She looked miserable. I was thinking that maybe I should suggest to her that she should leave for another order. All I did was think it. I heard in my soul (not with my ears or in my head) .. 'NO'. It came out of nowhere. It felt powerful and male (even though God is spirit and therefore isn't male or female). It was like thunder cracking across the entire sky. It was BIG. I actually ducked in the car. But when I looked around at the cars around me, no one was acting like they heard it. Everyone was driving normal and no one was ducking or looking around. I heard it in my soul, but at the same time the voice was HUGE and cracked across the entire sky. POWER.

Obviously I did not say anything to my friend. Years later she left for a different order on her own.

For someone to come along and say that I don't have a right to teach my child that God exists and that it's abusive to do so ... they are dead wrong. It would be abusive for me NOT teach my child that God is real.

FlyersFan

Prezbo369
Some (including myself) consider such brainwashing to be child abuse. Children should be allowed to decide themselves at an older age whether or not to accept superstitions as truth.

None of us have a right to tell parents what they should and should not teach their children in regards to religion. You may consider it abusive for parents to teach their children to pray a rosary or to volunteer at a homeless shelter with a church group ... but it's really none of your business and it's not the business of the government either.

Just because we disagree with what is being taught .. that doesn't make it abuse.

I feel bad for the people raised in extremist religious households. I really do. But the parents have the right to teach their children as they see fit. Otherwise, the government will be doing it ... and that's also a very frightening prospect.

In this day and age, and in the West where people are more free with information, when children become adults and get out on their own, they have the ability to shake off the teachings they don't like. It's not the same in 'Muslim' countries. But at least in the West, people can leave behind that which they wish to as they mature and are out on their own.

Well said!

snypwsd
You can not say that YOU know there is a god unless you meet this god personally.

And I have.

by your theory, it should be ok to teach children how to make and use drugs, how to drive underage, how to smoke ect and the government should not say anything?

That's ignorant. Epic deflection failure on your part.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Could that not be considered schizophrenia?? Is that not the term for hearing voices that no one else can hear?

snypwsd
Could that not be considered schizophrenia?? Is that not the term for hearing voices that no one else can hear?

It wasn't a voice. It was different. Like I said, it wasn't in my head or ears. It was in the soul. And if it were schizophrenia, it would have been in the head or with the ears, and not just the word 'no' one time. My degree is psychology .. I know what schizophrenia is.

Bottom line. I know God exists. No one has the right to tell me, as a parent, that I can't tell my child God is real. It's intrusive and it's arrogant of anyone to claim that right over me. Period.

reply to post by FlyersFan

how is it ignorant? its a valid point as you said that the government should not be able to tell you what you can or can not teach your children. There for what I said Applies.

snypwsd
how is it ignorant? its a valid point ....

It's not a valid point. It's a strawman and deflection.
Parents have a right to teach children that God is real.
Parents can not teach children to break the law and be dangerous. BIG DIFFERENCE.
So your strawman is a failure.

Just to point out I mean abuse when you force your child into your own religion.
It is fine to talk about god and to tell your child you believe but the forcing is abuse.
Children should be taught about all religion (also the anti theist way of thinking) and the child should be able to make up her/his own mind.
But to harm a baby for example the Jewish snipping ect is abuse and that is why it is illegal in some places, because to me that is physical abuse.
Iam in the camp that thinks you do not own your children because they are not to own they are to care for and brainwashing and forcing kid's into something they know is BS until they get worn down into falling for it is wrong.
I remember as a kid I went to Sunday school and I questioned everything because I knew at that age it was rubbish..I was thrown out lol.
Oh and go easy on flyers please she is one of the true Christians on ATS and she is not afraid to question her own religion.

boymonkey74
Just to point out I mean abuse when you force your child into your own religion.
It is fine to talk about god and to tell your child you believe but the forcing is abuse.

There ya' go. Some common sense. Forcing doesn't work anyways. When the child becomes 'of age', they will rebel and go far far in the opposite direction then the parent wanted. It backfires on the parents.

In our house, my husband and I practiced our faith and educated our child in our faith, but also she was told the basics of what all the other main stream religions believe as well as what those who disbelieve think and why. She's now an adult (18) and is making her own decisions ... and doing just fine.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Dont get me wrong, Im not saying that you didnt experience anything, and I agree that no one has the right to tell you or myself how to raise our children, but again why must the burden of eternal damnation be forced on a child if they do not have the mind power to truely comprehend religion.

Im not saying that your beliefs are wrong, Im not saying that you are a bad parent for teaching your child about your god. Im sure your a wonderful person and an awesome parent. Im trying to get you to look at it from an outsiders point of view.

That is one of the main things that Atheists want others to do. we dont want to convert you to our side, all we ask is for you to spend one moment looking at things from our point of view. Its called being open minded.

reply to post by FlyersFan

In our house, my husband and I practiced our faith and educated our child in our faith, but also she was told the basics of what all the other main stream religions believe as well as what those who disbelieve think and why. She's now an adult (18) and is making her own decisions ... and doing just fine.

Of course she is, and good on you for doing that.
You gave her a choice, and educated her to draw her own conclusions when she felt ready, and that's admirable and good - not abusive at all.

I think the young people in the video were not given that choice or broad "liberal arts and humanities" education, which I think is critical. Critical for critical thinking. heh.

You provided her with a broad array - not just a narrow view. I'm all for that. I'm glad there are parents like you and your husband.
Perhaps it could be said that parents ought to teach their children about religions, rather than keeping them from hearing other views and being taught to hate others for those views? Or simply, "I believe there is a God, but no one truly understands it and many people have different ideas about it - because its beyond our comprehension, so its up to each of us to find our own meaning. I'll answer your questions, and encourage you to ask other people, also, and get different opinions. This way worked for me, and you'll get more answers than just mine."

Or, as my dad always said, "Look it up!"

snypwsd
Its called being open minded.

I am open minded. But the fact remains, parents have rights over their children. Passing on the religion is one of those rights. There is a lot about organized religion that I hate. And I wish people didn't unload all that hate onto the kids. But it is their right to bring them up as they see fit (while following the laws of the land).


Side note .... those on the left say I"m too conservative. Those on the right say I"m too liberal. I get called a 'piece of garbage atheist' by the religious extremists and I get called other negative names by the militant atheists. The two groups don't realize they are two sides of the same extremist coin. I'd laugh if it weren't such a sad commentary about humanity.