I feel like I am being pulled back into an unhealthy relationship.

reply to post by Grifter42


This is the way I look at it.

Think of your ideal girl. Surely that girl would want to be with you and love you. Which excludes the girl you're talking about. She's not your ideal girl. Go find the one that is.

Yesterday, I heard the best damn advice ever about "friendzoning":


Ask her to be your wingwoman. Helps you to find a girl.

Well, she asked for being "just friends", right?



I know, it seems wrong, as you want her - well, that won't happen. Use her to find another girl.

reply to post by Grifter42


The more time you waste on this girl the less time you could be out there finding your real soul mate.

She's just not that into you.

You will find your soul mate but it won't be until July next year. This will give plenty of time to heal and this woman will be well worth the wait.

Despite what a couple previous posters said, the "friend zone" does not exist. Sometimes women and men keep a person as a friend until the time is right and they are available. This has happened to me twice; I successfully got past "just friends" and had 2 happy relationships, including the last that went on for 7 years (until I was an idiot and took her for granted). Sometimes it is easy to see that the other person does want to be with you, but the time is not right.

That said ... You are being played. From what you said, it seems clear to me that you are her emotional crutch. The best advice I can give is ... walk away. Give her the cold shoulder. Don't be there for her to lean on and then leave.

If you are right about the movie ending, you will find out pretty soon. Turning your back on her will make her realize you are no longer her puppy dog, and then she has to make a decision. Leave the ball in her court. But for now I highly suggest forgetting her; you seem to be in the emotional state where you will pick up on any little signal and inflate it in your mind. Sorry man. Stay strong.

reply to post by Grifter42


Dude...

I just relatively recently ended a long association with a lass of a similar disposition to the one you describe. There is only one way I would ever consider rekindling the connection I had with that woman. If she comes to me, actually takes the time to come to my door (she cannot call or message me because I blocked her number, and screen out her emails), and explains to me that she knows that how she treated me in the past was wrong, that she wants me in her life, that she loves me and needs me,exclusively, then I might consider allowing her back into my life.

But even then I would only consider that if she was very forthright, not at all coy, and totally straightforward about it. You see, women of the nature you describe, and indeed males of that psychopathology, like to leave things ambiguous, so that they can feel justified in indulging their primal needs when ever, and with whomever, they choose, without considering the feelings of others.

In actual fact, such habits are sometimes evidence of psychopathy, which is something to consider when weighing up what kind of association you might have with this woman in the future. At any rate, the ambiguity that they insist on essentially allows them to feel a measure of justification for what they see as looking after their needs, and what you see as deeply hurtful and disrespectful behaviour. Let me give you a measure of certainty here. Her behaviour IS not acceptable if it hurts you. If she is not going to change her behaviour (which, if she is anything like the lass that I am reminded of when thinking about your problem, she is very unlikely to do, even if she makes every indication to the contrary), then you ought to steer well clear.

Your heart might be all kinds of messed up just now, God knows mine is, but the fact is that you cannot trust this person, and much as you might feel that you need her, what you really need is a woman in your life that you can trust, that you can have a totally real relationship with. If you go ahead and spend a holiday with this woman, that sends two, negative signals. One is, that you have no willpower or instinct for self preservation, which to a predatory hell cow is like blood in the water to a shark. The other is that her behaviour has been accepted, and that she now has free reign to crap all over your aorta, and every ventricle of your heart, at any time, for any reason, because technically, you would be asking for it, given what you know.

The mindset you need to adopt is to make a choice, once, and for all time, about how you want to be treated, and how you want to treat yourself. If you want to be treated with respect, and treat your self with respect, then let the cow stew in her own pot, forget about getting with her, and think about waiting for someone worth your time to come along. If you want to be her personal commode for the rest of your life however, go ahead and holiday with her.

I hate to be so blunt, but when dealing with a potentially psychopathic personality, there are no grey spaces, just the black and white reality, and therefore it is best to view the scenario, and indeed the solutions to it, in such terms. I am sorry that you are going through this sort of wrenching, difficult process right now, I know how hard it is, and I would not wish it on anyone. I wish you the very best of luck in dealing with this situation, and hope that you make a choice which is positive for you going forward.

I have had only limited interaction with you in the past Grifter, but if you need to talk about this, feel free to U2U me anytime. I have been through this junk, and I know the various ways in which it sucks, and if I can be of any help... You know?

You folks are right. Sever, that's the old adage.

Sure, maybe yesterday I told her we might be able to hang out...

And maybe last night, that version of me died in his sleep dreaming about cooking chicken soup.

This version of Grifter isn't gonna say a damned thing to her, I think. Whether or not I spoke to her in the past doesn't matter.

Why does it always gotta be dames to break a man's heart? Other stuff can eat away at him, the bills, the job, the booze rotting his guts... but the thing that does him in, the that's always the dame.

I think I'm gonna get real tight-lipped. The stench of desperation has hung in the air too long. No need to buy another pound of shrimp and hide it in my own air vents.

forget the feeling, think like her.

that or don't go.

reply to post by Jarring


If I've been thinking it's going to end like a movie...

Perhaps it's more a film noir.

Forget it, Grift. It's Chinatown.

Or more accurately, The Maltese Falcon. And this Sam Spade ain't going to lose it over one stinking broad.

The Maltese Falcon, now there's an accurate comparison. Everyone's heard it's made of gold, but inside, it's worthless lead.

The bird's no good for anyone, just causes distress. She'll cling to the nearest floating piece of flotsam or jetsam, and that's just how it is.

You are just enabling her to continue a behavior where she steals your energy to feel good about herself, go find a similar being like herself that steals her energy and we are back at square one where she feed on you.

This is all about karma and you are in the way for it teaching her a lesson she need to know, since you always feed her when she comes drained out. You are literally feeding an addiction. Stop giving the alcoholic booze so that the alcoholic finally crashes and have to see the problems she creates.

Grifter42


If I've been thinking it's going to end like a movie...

Perhaps it's more a film noir.

Thus my suggestion to write the screenplay on pg 1. You have a unique way of expressing yourself, a talent actually because I can feel your pain from your words.

a reminder perhaps

www.celtx.com...

or

store.finaldraft.com...(roi)+us+-+final+draft+branded&utm_content=final+draft&utm_t erm=final%20draft&utm_creative=e if you want to spend the money.

and when you finish.....u2u me, perhaps we can make a short for the festival circuit, with my small production co. This isn't BS.

Remember..........."Art saves Lives"

reply to post by olaru12


I decided to take a third option.

Today, at the college campus, there was a meeting of the SGA, where all the club presidents meet together with the student government president and discuss this and that...

I met a couple of girls there that really caught my eye.

One was president of the drama club, a little chubby, but in a cute way. She was a huge fan of Terraria, Starbound, all these indie games... We spoke for a while. I hung out with her, some of the other drama people, in fact, she was the one who invited me along to the SGA meeting... But I think I wore on her nerves at some point. Can't be sure, but, you know...

The other was the president of the writer's club, a petite girl with an androgynous haircut and an indulging nature, I got her to read a couple of my stories, and she said I should join the writer's club. Writer's club would be hard for me to fit into my schedule, considering the days that it's on, but I liked her, and the other guy who was a representative of the club was of a nice enough sort.

Maybe I should feel a pang of guilt for not consoling Miss Understanding about her dog's problems, but she fundamentally misunderstood me as a person.

This Grifter is tired of playing second fiddle.

reply to post by Grifter42




Just read through the thread and you have been given some very good advice. Your

last post makes me think you have got the message and have taken on some of the

advice and intend to move forward ... I know it won't be easy ... but a continually

picked at 'sore' will never heal and to keep on picking at it is frankly masochistic.


If you have an abundance of empathy, warmth and love you could always help out at

a centre of mistreated, unloved children .... now they would really would appreciate

some warmth and affection. And it would take your mind of your 'unrequited love'

situation!

eletheia
reply to post by Grifter42

 

Just read through the thread and you have been given some very good advice. Your

last post makes me think you have got the message and have taken on some of the

advice and intend to move forward.

Indeed. After twenty or so people tells someone that they're doing something stupid, a smart person would stop doing that thing.

I needed to hear it from people who would be unbiased, from someone other than that bad influence in my heart.

And after getting that advice, surprisingly, I decided to listen.

There's a whole college full of smart, funny, and lovely girls, and you only live once.

I'm gonna go round the club circuit, see if that chick from the writing club might be interested in me, if not, no big deal.

Like you folks said, plenty of fish in the sea, and if you're in too deep, sever the line.

Good Lord almighty Grifter 42,

You have me busting out in laughter and at the same time wanting to knock you block off for repeating the same pattern I used to carry out in my ignorance.

Grifter 42,

This is not a video game. It is not a movie or television program.

It is obvious that your view of life out here is tainted by movies, television, and video games. This is not real life. It is phony, ersatz, substitute life.

The sad thing is it taints our emotions to where we also, because of this
altered, phony understanding, make bad emotional decisions concering our lives. Decisions based on emotional instant gratification beliefs...which are happy movie and television beliefs.

I am often very quick to note when listening to a group of people...who it is who cannot explain or define a concept without referring to a movie or television program they have watched. This tells me that these people are living second hand..vicarious lives. They have no real life experiences of their own or knowledge by which to make important decisions. And how we handle or dont handle our relationships affects our lives decisively.


I've known several women like the one you are describing. I wanted to be there to "Rescue" then and by this "Try out " for their approval. To "Flashdance " them through lifes hurdles. The problem with them is that they had no appreciation for this. They looked on it as a weakness. And with them it was a weakness. For you see...I thought these women were more honorable than I. I found this line of thinking to be in severe error.
The sad truth about them is that they normally choose men or males who treated them badly. They had no appreciation for a man who treated them decently. They would keep you around for bad or hard times and solving problems for them but only keep you at arms length. You were handy...but not that handy.

This kind of behavior from a male is called "Trying out for approval." Like trying out for the baseball team...tryouts. I no longer do this kind of conduct. I have learned that my time and emotions/disciplines are valuable commodities in the marketplace.
Grifter42...when you try out for approval with this caliber of women ..she very quickly detects weakness in you and begins the process of leading you ..not you leading her. You know ...like in dancing..except that she is leading you..separating you from your labor, time, and monies. Wise up here Grifter42. Understand now why she does not respect you ..but respects someone else whose vision she is attracted to but may be bad for her...at least long enough to get them into bed knowing it wont last long.
The women I have known like this usually do not have long attention spans in their personal lives. They can function in their jobs but their personal lives are a train wreck and they work hard to hide it from you to present appearances which are not true.

As someone aptly stated..they are vamipires..emotional vampires.

I have learned that my ability to take RISKS to solve problems is not to be easily manipulated or made disposable and expendable for a womans second hand conduct...or third or fourth hand conduct.

This kind of behavior in this kind of woman relies on your ignorance and emotional weakness. And a woman will not respect a male who is weak in these departments.
She may find him handy from time to time to solve problems and issues she does not want to do for herself..but she will not respect him.

I too was called to come over to help this woman with her dog...and when the dog died I burried the dog for this woman. Then it was back to arms length.

Finally I realized this woman was a bad drug upon me and it was my fault for letting her put me on such a drug very cheaply on her end. I swallowed the drug lock stock and barrel because I did not realize I was selling myself short for something not worth it on her end.

I will introduce you to another word and concept in understanding.

When you spend so much time "Trying out for approval " from a woman and she keeps you at arms length ..for more control and trying out...this is called also "High Maintenance." You are tending to do alot of things for her to rescue her from one percieved calamity after another. But you are so busy "rescuing " you never stop to ask yourself ...who was doing this before I came along and why are they not helping her now.

Answer...because she used them up ...like she is using you up in your ignorance.

That is why she called you back up...there was no one else..she had used them up.

I am a machinist by trade in a shipyard. I take RISKS for my monies. MY work requires disciplines. I also have a specialty qualification as a nuclear refueler. I put nuclear fuel cells into reactors. THis means I take serious risks for my monies.

I do not know what kind of RISKS you take for your monies...but I have learned that when I take first place RISKS for my monies ..I do not want second, third, or fourth place conduct from the woman in whom I am in attendance and spending my hard earned monies on her. Remember this the rest of your life...no matter what you do for a living.

As I have posted here on ATS several times...Peace is the most valuable commodity a good woman brings to a man...not Piece.
It is not difficult to get many women to take off their clothes. It is however ..very difficult to get a woman to give you the commitment which brings you Peace. Not the appearance of Peace..but real Peace.
I know and have known women for whom Piece is the only tool in their knowledge and tool box. Outside of that they know very little.

This woman you describe sounds like she can never bring you Peace...only Piece. Not a good trade off for a man...because on the other side there will be so much rescuing and flashdancing for you to do...not peaceful and not a good tradeoff. This is why it is "High Maintenance."

As you mature you will figure this out in more detail and be able to handle it. If not you will find there are lots of variations of this kind of woman out there.
They love to stick ignorant males like you into the "Friends Zone." Do not let them do this to you ..it is second hand conduct to you while you are expected and defaulted to bring them first fruits.

Learn and teach yourself not to emote so easily and give up that television and movie education. This kind of television and movie education dumbs you down in handling your relationships..and away from reality. It puts you on weak fantasy ..not reality.
It makes you expendable and disposable for her fantasys. Not a good tradeoff. She believes fanstasy is for her..not you..ie..high maintenance. Wise up.


One more thing Grifter42. This is a very important life lesson...for your whole life. This is also an education you will never get in college or high school. Never. You must learn it in the school of hard knocks. Drop her like a bad habit..but also learn to appreciate the lesson and hard knocks she is teaching you...not intentionally..but teaching you nonetheless. For you will be applying it down the road on other women for sure.

Hope this helps,
Lots of good advice on this thread,
Orangetom

reply to post by orangetom1999


The advice did indeed help. I've made up my mind that I've got to keep my dignity, that she'll somehow steal it from me if I let her.

Our situations DO have much in common. A lot. But don't think me static.

Sure, I told her yesterday we could hang out, but yesterday it hadn't sunk in how bad an idea it would be..

So, I didn't say a word to her today, I ain't gonna say a word to her tomorrow, and in regards to Spring Break, she's going to have to find someone else to hang out with.

"Emotional vampire" is right, man.

And maybe I do have a little too much interest in pop culture, but I use it to write stories... That's not exactly an excuse, but, hey, pobody's nerfect.

And brother, you are right about peace. That's why I'm interested in the girl from the writing club. She reads a story, and quietly discusses it. Tells me that it's good, and shows it to her friend who also thinks it's good. They invite me to the writing club. Even if I don't get that particular girl, I'll be in a place with fellow writers, people who appreciate reading, stories, things like that.

I'd rather look for a fresh catch in the writer's club than eat rotting fish, hooks still attached. I lost track of this metaphor somewhere in the middle. But I'll learn. I'll adapt. By Jove, I'll survive. Going back a thousand great-grandfathers, each of my paternal ancestors managed to find a mate. So I figure I will be able to at some point too. Unless I climb a wrought iron spiked fence wrong and become a medical journal article. But that's the risk one takes.

So, I shall endeavour to persevere. Willpower, old sport. Chicks from writing club. It's the promised land. Or maybe it's just college. Regardless, I'll get by. Plus, if I can't get a girl in writing club, then at least I can get reader. Improve my writing. It's all part of the plan.

Grifter42,

The advice did indeed help. I've made up my mind that I've got to keep my dignity, that she'll somehow steal it from me if I let her.

Exactly correct Grifter 42...precisely correct. If you prefer to put it another way..
she will steal your soul and you let her. Don't let her.

Our situations DO have much in common. A lot. But don't think me static.

This is a good start. You will be learning to take this much further in your life with many different women who also play this "Friends" game. Lead them ..do not let them lead you. Learn to discipline your emotions. Wild animals cede to their emotions. Disciplined people do not. They learn to discipline their emotions.
Obviously there are emotional predators out here. You are dealing with one.

Sure, I told her yesterday we could hang out, but yesterday it hadn't sunk in how bad an idea it would be..

Yeah...this is a good start. I did the same with the woman who was the worst I ever knew. It took me awhile to wean myself off her..I had let her sink the drug so deeply into my soul. But I kept in mind the thought that I was sure she was bad for me in the long run. And she was. Later I was to learn the proof of this.

So, I didn't say a word to her today, I ain't gonna say a word to her tomorrow, and in regards to Spring Break, she's going to have to find someone else to hang out with.

This is a good start. You will get used to it and learn to occupy your time more productively. You dont want to get back into that olde habit. The woman whom I let do me the worst..it was like in order to pull her wagon for her...it took up more and more of my time and monies yet the whole time she was throwing more stuff in the wagon for me to pull. That too convinced me of how bad she was for me.

"Emotional vampire" is right, man.

Correct ...learn to spot this type very quickly...and stay away from them. Or learn to look them dead in the eye and not blink with every sob story they tell. They will respect you for it. They may not like it but they will respect it.

And maybe I do have a little too much interest in pop culture, but I use it to write stories... That's not exactly an excuse, but, hey, pobody's nerfect.

Nothing wrong with pop culture Grifter 42 as long as you know that is what it is. This is not about perfect...but about survival and the tools necessary to survive. You will obviously not get these tools and understanding from pop culture. This is a key to what pop culture is and is not. As long as you understand this you can handle it and not let it handle you once you develop the proper tools. But pop culture is not where you learn this kind of thinking or develop these kinds of tools.

And brother, you are right about peace. That's why I'm interested in the girl from the writing club. She reads a story, and quietly discusses it. Tells me that it's good, and shows it to her friend who also thinks it's good. They invite me to the writing club. Even if I don't get that particular girl, I'll be in a place with fellow writers, people who appreciate reading, stories, things like that.

Good for you. Remember that about Peace verses Piece. You will be running up against it over and over and over. Learn to discipline yourself...and good writing is a discipline unto itself. Good for you.

Here is a tip for you about writing. Much of today's writing is at a newspaper level or lower. You can see this in many of the posts here on ATS and elsewhere. Your writing from what I see is a bit better than average.
When you read books more than a hundred years olde...it is obvious that those people who could read and write had an extensive vocabulary and knew how words were to be utilized. This is no longer so. Todays college graduate has a vocabulary of some 1000 to 1200 words and most of them four letter. Where as in olde days people and particularly college graduates had a vocabulary of some 4000 to 4500 words and knew what they meant.
This too is not taught to people along with history for this is history.

I'd rather look for a fresh catch in the writer's club than eat rotting fish, hooks still attached. I lost track of this metaphor somewhere in the middle. But I'll learn. I'll adapt. By Jove, I'll survive. Going back a thousand great-grandfathers, each of my paternal ancestors managed to find a mate. So I figure I will be able to at some point too. Unless I climb a wrought iron spiked fence wrong and become a medical journal article. But that's the risk one takes.

Exactly Grifter 42.

So, I shall endeavour to persevere. Willpower, old sport. Chicks from writing club. It's the promised land. Or maybe it's just college. Regardless, I'll get by. Plus, if I can't get a girl in writing club, then at least I can get reader. Improve my writing. It's all part of the plan.

Let me give you this piece of advice...not just for the writers club but for wherever you choose to work. I do not advise that you squat where you work so to speak. You are at the writers club to learn to write..not to hunt and gather. You can spoil or ruin your presence at the writers club if you handle it wrong or the female handles it wrong.
You are there for writing ..to learn writing. This is far more valuable than a relationship at this time. There are lots of places to meet females and women.

If you are in the habit of hunting and gathering where you work and it goes bad...bad things can happen and you have to see these people every day. You would be surprised at the number of women who hunt and gather at the work place or do what I call "Working their way through the food chain."

Nonetheless...you decide and handle your affairs. You are responsible for your conduct.
Your choice...I just don't advise it.

Hope this helps,
Orangetom

Grifter 42,

One more thing which occurs to me in the course of this topic and line of thinking.

As you learn to handle the width and breadth of this kind of thing...emotional vampires..and high maintenance women....teach other young men this survival skill. How to spot that which is not seen with the ordinary eye. Not seen with the eye of pop culture..because it is not designed to be seen or known.

For it is Occult...hidden..concealed..even esoteric. Known only by a chosen few. Never intended for you to see and know it in order for it to default through unknown and unquestioned in your ignorance.

It is occult...subtilty..but very powerful on the ignorant.

This is very much how leadership and the body politic today work...on the ignorance of the public.

For this is sexual politics. Understand now? And it is based on your continued ignorance to default through to its conclusion.

Now there is a topic and thought on which you can learn and write.
You are going to run into lots of males out here in the same boat. Help them with their thinking.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Grifter 42,

Goodness me. You wont believe what just happened on another thread titled
" I just dumped my boyfriend" here on the relationship forum

Here is the link for you to read. This is the post I made to a woman named Miss SKy.
To my surprise her boyfriend also posts on ATS and responded down the page from the thread I am linking. You will find this interesting as well but I wanted in particular for
you to read my response to what I consider a controlling vampire...or predator.
There are several posts on that page by me and also the responses. I think you will find them interesting and useful.

here this link


www.abovetopsecret.com...


Hope this further helps you to learn and pass it on. Bon Appetit.

Orangetom

reply to post by orangetom1999


So, I kept ignoring her, but she's made another attempt to contact me.

Unprovoked, she sent me her phone number today on facebook.

Something's off about this whole thing.

Something smells rotten in Denmark. But the specifics of it, I couldn't be sure of.

I thought of calling her, ringing the number. But then, I thought that I had no more reason to call that broad than to dial Pennsylvania 6-5000.

My mind's eye conjured up images of a fly, caught up in a spider's web. But I had grown genre savvy.
Normally, if I were to be exposed to her, it'd drive me crazy. But this time, I had a plan. A directed form of madness.

Better to go film noir crazy than depressed crazy. And so here I am, drowning my sorrows among some of the finest lowlifes I've ever grown to know.

Grifter42
reply to post by orangetom1999

 

So, I kept ignoring her, but she's made another attempt to contact me.

Unprovoked, she sent me her phone number today on facebook.

Something's off about this whole thing.

Something smells rotten in Denmark. But the specifics of it, I couldn't be sure of.

I thought of calling her, ringing the number. But then, I thought that I had no more reason to call that broad than to dial Pennsylvania 6-5000.

My mind's eye conjured up images of a fly, caught up in a spider's web. But I had grown genre savvy.
Normally, if I were to be exposed to her, it'd drive me crazy. But this time, I had a plan. A directed form of madness.

Better to go film noir crazy than depressed crazy. And so here I am, drowning my sorrows among some of the finest lowlifes I've ever grown to know.

Grifter42,

"Pennsylvania 6-5000." Ahh..ok...very well. So you do know some history ..even the history of the arts and music...and from the big band era. Well said..well said!!!

She is getting desperate. As I stated...she is more interested in not losing the relationship than the fellow in whom she is in attendance.

Your choice Grifter 42 as to what you do or don't do..but think of this.

I've been in the military..a long way from home and family...away from girlfriends...like thousands of miles away. Do you want to deal with a walking train wreck?? One who cannot survive good times??? Much less bad times. She thinks this is hard times?? Your kidding me!! She would never have survived what we had to do overseas..and thousands of others like me.

Remember this..??

Peace ....not Piece.

What is happening is not Peaceful..good times or bad. You are not in it for drama and drama is chaos.

I hate drama queens..male or female..both. But it is your business indeed as to how you choose to handle it.

Be prepared for her to show up on your doorstep with drama. Make up your mind how you are going to handle it.

Nothing is off as long as you control and lead..and not her. Same thing if she shows up at your door..you lead..not her.




Me..I am having some hot soup, iced tea, and listening to relaxing guitar and piano music with my book on philosophy.

www.youtube.com...

Whenever I want to leave the world and drama behind I listen to relaxing meditation music..usually instrumental. Or even some Kenny G of recent.

Reading
Nicolo Machiavelli .."The Prince."

Talk about an Amoral book..without morals.

I'll be done with this in about an hour. It is not a heavy read.

Soup is good and so too is the iced tea..but the book is mediocre.
Been promising myself I would reread it one day.

Thanks for your reply.

Orangetom