Russian Federation Council Agrees to Putin's Request for military intervention in Crimea

Xcathdra
reply to post by victor7

 

NATO is not restricted as to membership, so im not sure where you are getting that NATO must remain at the elbe.

Secondly,
At what point do you consider a country sovereign? Those nations that are former republics / east bloc are sovereign and can align / join whomever they wish.

Last I checked no former republic has to obtain permission from Moscow to run their nations as they see fit. Or is it your position that a nation is only sovereign when it agrees with Moscow?

Your logic holds true partially however when two SUPERPOWERS disengage from certain "dangerous scenario" like in 1991, they make certain terms and agreements, so that " HOSTILE REENGAGEMENT" does not take place.

NATO broke those agreements of 1991 and now "HOSTILE RE-ENGAGEMENT" is taking place.

Sovereign nation logic holds fine but the same logic will also hold fine when Russia places its nukes in Cuba?

Sovereign nation logic DOES NOT hold fine when direct interests of NUCLEAR SUPERPOWERS are at stake......for the sake of the human race!

Russia is not the same power as the USSR. But nukes wise, it can still blow up the earth several times.

Would not want to hear this Sovereign nation logic anymore !!

DeadSeraph
I believe it is, but I think it will need to come from NATO and the EU first. There needs to be a recognition of Russian interests and the previous agreements which were signed into law by the former Ukrainian government. Russia isn't going to budge without assurances that it's naval base and it's economic interests will be respected. Those assurances also need to be made by the Ukrainian government as well.

let me ask - How exactly can NATO / EU / West recognize a Russian interest in a sovereign nation? I think first and foremost the Ukrainian people should be respected by all sides by acknowledging they are sovereign and are responsible for their own future, including who they do and do not do business with. If that cannot happen, then it shows no respect for Ukraine, from any side.

Any action on anyone's part to reach an agreement about Ukraine without Ukraine, will not work and will only lead to continued conflict.

If Ukraine wants to do business with Russia, and its acceptable to the Ukrainian people, then that's the way it goes. If Ukraine wishes to align itself with the west and join NATO, and its acceptable to the Ukrainian people, then that's the way it goes. This argument about borders and NATO is insane based on the fact the United States and Russia share a border, and at its closest its only 50 miles between the 2. NATO doctrine does not rely on a first trike doctrine. Ukraine being a member of NATO does not threaten Russia in any sense since they are not required to host NATO militaries / weapons etc. Secondly, as others like to point out, Russia has a good military.

DeadSeraph
I think if that much is done, Russia will be willing to withdraw troops and sit down at the negotiating table. But if the west insists that Russia abandon it's interest on western terms, it will not end well and Russia will refuse to budge. The problem here is that neither side wants to lose face. The west doesn't want to appear soft, and the Russians don't want to send the message that they will not defend their interests.

Russia must withdraw its forces and return the status quo. Anything less and they are holding a gun to Ukraine's head while demanding they negotiate. The protests that broke out mainly occurred in the west / Kiev did they not?

There are protests breaking out in Crimea for pro Russian stance. People who do not share that view are being attacked / injured. Should troops be sent in to protect the people who don't share a pro Moscow view?

Russia started this with intervention. Russia must deescalate and that will require a return to the status quo to allow Ukraine to determine things for themselves.

Agit8dChop
Crimea is a Russian port where the navy is situated. Russia hasn't made a move on mainland Ukraine or Kiev. There's probably many secrets and possibly nuclear weapons there. So far all Russia has done is protect its strategic naval force.

Crimea is a Ukrainian port leased to the Russian Navy.
Crimea was given to Ukraine by the Soviet Union, and as such is Ukrainian territory.

Russia's use of force authorization is not worded to only restrict it to Crimea.

Russia does not need 15k troops to secure a possibility of nuclear weapons. Secondly, might want to check with the agreement on whether or not Russia can even store nukes in that are. From everything I have seen, its restricted to conventional weapons only.

If it only wanted to "protect nukes" they would not have their Russian forces spread out all over the Crimea.

new videos coming out now of the Russian occupation in Crimea.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...
im new so sorry if these have been posted

victor7
Your logic holds true partially however when two SUPERPOWERS disengage from certain "dangerous scenario" like in 1991, they make certain terms and agreements, so that " HOSTILE REENGAGEMENT" does not take place.

NATO never disengaged. the Soviet Union, and by extension warsaw pact, collapsed.

victor7
NATO broke those agreements of 1991 and now "HOSTILE RE-ENGAGEMENT" is taking place.

no agreements were violated.

victor7
Sovereign nation logic holds fine but the same logic will also hold fine when Russia places its nukes in Cuba?

Since the US was required to remove our nukes from Turkey as quid pro quo your comparison fails.

victor7
Sovereign nation logic DOES NOT hold fine when direct interests of NUCLEAR SUPERPOWERS are at stake......for the sake of the human race!

Ah yes, more claims using nukes. Get over it please. Russia is not the only nuclear nation on this planet.

victor7
Russia is not the same power as the USSR. But nukes wise, it can still blow up the earth several times.

Someone should tell Putin that then since apparently he feels he can order around former republics as if they are still a forced part of the USSR.

again - get off the nuke topic.

victor7
Would not want to hear this Sovereign nation logic anymore !!

edit on 1-3-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)

then you should find another thread to discuss this topic in since we are dealing with Sovereign nations. Try as you might, Ukraine is a sovereign nation.. Crimea is a part of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.

Trying to ignore the term sovereign is only being done to try and justify Russian actions and make them into something they are not - justified.

I was watching a documentary on Russian Special Forces and there one guy said

"Russians have the patience of Donkeys. But when that patience is broken, then it is bad for the aggressors."

Russia has clearly expressed via recent actions that its patience has crossed the limits.

There is no turning back now !!

Wise heads in the West...............take note of this fact !!

victor7
I was watching a documentary on Russian Special Forces and there one guy said

"Russians have the patience of Donkeys. But when that patience is broken, then it is bad for the aggressors."

Russia has clearly expressed via recent actions that its patience has crossed the limits.

There is no turning back now !!

Wise heads in the West...............take note of this fact !!

Its an old Russian proverb.... repeating it does not make one invincible, nor does it make it true.

As for your last post please remove it as its a personal attack.

reply to post by Xcathdra


older the proverb more powerful it turns out to be..............

ps: quit bossing around

##off topic material removed by staff###

Now to the current situation. I like to think that national leaders are pragmatic when it comes to situations as serious as this. Unlike some I don't let my personal opinions of a political figure dictate how I think this will play out. It is going to be a major news item for a few weeks or months. After that it will die off from the mainstream just like much every other crisis in recent years. Unless, of course, something seriously dire happens. Right now the Budapest Memorandum has me worried. That is if the US & UK declare it legally binding. As of this moment that is the only thing I see that could escalate the situation to a world war.

There are things that are going for the common people generally. The world is much more interconnected than it was before the 1st & 2nd world wars. Also, aside from the Budapest Memorandum, there are not a series of binding treaties that could fall like dominoes and cause WW3. Most nations are playing the game right now. Seeing how much they can bleed out of the Ukraine without getting burned. Russia is taking the situation more seriously and rightfully so. She has much to lose or gain depending on the outcome.

The fact I dislike the most about this crisis is that the Ukrainians are being used as pawns. It sucks to be a pawn.

ATTENTION!

The bickering and personal attacks stop now! Any off topic, angry post or baiting beyond this point will result in a minimum of a 72 hour posting ban!

It's obvious this is an emotional topic for some, so please take that extra moment to think before you post. Final warning!

Blaine91555
Forum Moderator

reply to post by Redrussian


You sir are not a Cossack...

Whats your solution to the Crimea - Ukraine - Russian invasion issue?

Does anyone know what percentage of Ukrainian army is comprised on Russian speaking or linked men.

Total military is 160K. Army is roughly 73K or which 18% are women.

2 main armored divisions are both located in the Eastern parts.
1 of the 3 military corps are also in the East of Dniper river.

Ukraine has upto 1000 tanks which are T-72 and up level. Main numbers are of T-64. Total tanks upto 4000.
They do however have atleast 1 battalion of S-300s, more than a few Tor/Buk air defense systems.

Debka.com says interim government in Kiev fears a putsh by the army.

The question is that coup would be to remove the traitors or to fight the Russians.
Better to remove the traitors and stop their country from getting dismembered into pieces.

There are a few areas that should be clarified between the Ukraine, Crimea and Russia, first and foremost, other nations should back off and let things calm and these important talks commence.

First, some basics.

Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine.

Ukraine has made important deals with Russia, including paying off it's debts to Russia and specially reduced gas prices, as well as other ties, which are imperative to the finances of Ukraine.

Ukraine is politically divided into EU support and Russia support, this is also similar for defined ethnicity.

The turmoil in Kiev was caused by EU supporting protesters that didn't like that the then president didn't agree to a EU deal.

The Ukraine governments response to the protesters and the violence that occurred there caused EU sanctions being placed upon Ukraine.

Crimea is very much in the supporting Russia camp as well as mostly identifying as being ethnically Russian and became part of the Ukraine by Khrushchev's actions rather than their own choice.

Crimea has at least twice tried to have complete independence from Ukraine, each time Ukraine trashed their claim and enforced them staying as part of Ukraine against their choice, eventually resulting in Autonomy and certain rights.

Crimea is an Autonomous region, it has it's own rights in addition to being part of Ukraine, these rights are mostly financial and in it's property management.

Crimea asked Russia for assistance due to fear of attacks based on it's Russian supporting majority and for the security of it's property, people, and finances.

There are Russian pipelines and deals with the Ukraine and Crimea that perhaps Crimea fear potentially being jeopardised.

Crimea's financial situation is also being affected by EU sanctions against Ukraine.

Therefore it is something to consider that in assisting Crimea as asked, Russia is not contravening the Budapest Memorandum therefore shouldn't be a concern on the level of military action from other nations.

www.interpretermag.com...

There are unconfirmed reports of a large mass of Russian troops and military vehicles on the border of Russia and Ukraine, according to a Kiev-based Russian-language publication supportive of the EuroMaidan protests.

Gordonua.com, a web news site maintained by the editor of Gordon Boulevard, says they have a report from a local resident that at the border post of Senkova in Chernihiv Region, there are a lot of Russian APCs and buses with soldiers concentrated on the Russian side of the border.

Russian military are telling reporters today that they are “on a Western Front training exercise” at this location, about 190 kilometers from Kiev where the Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian borders come together. Earlier this week, 150,000 Russian troops were suddenly put on a combat readiness training. Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said the maneuvers were not related to events in Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian border guards told Gordonua.com that they do not know what is going on, and they will act as they are ordered. “But they did let it be known that in the event of attack, they cannot withstand such a number of forces.”

When Russia moves the VDV, that means serious business being undertaken

76th Guards Air Assault Division of the Russian Airborne Troops in Pskov, were reported missing from their barracks and believed to have been dispatched to Ukraine. Shlosberg had further reported that “the officers and contact group have been sent on a trip somewhere.”

Desire Democracy but Beware the hand of Demon-cracy


Ukraine was peaceful,Iraq was peaceful, Libya was peaceful,Egypt was peaceful. Syria was peaceful. It is surprise that people do not understand the real culprit and they fallen as prey so easily.

Morale of the story is..................A demonic entity will hurt you even if it thinks it is helping you !!

www.globalresearch.ca... 9

Ukraine Transition Government: Neo-Nazis in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education


The ultra-right Svoboda Party has scored six major cabinet ministries in the government of Arseniy Yatsenyuk approved by the Ukrainian parliament on Thursday. Svoboda is the Neo-Nazi, ultra-right, anti-Semitic, Russophobic party with its base of support in the Western Ukraine.