Russian Federation Council Agrees to Putin's Request for military intervention in Crimea

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Do you think Ukraine is important enough for Russia to commit all of its military assets to? Will they pull all their soldiers out of Kaliningrad, abandon the Russo-Chinese border, shut down Arkangelsk? No. On the other hand, Ukraine can and must fight to the last. If they can destroy enough roads and blockade Sevastopol, the troops Russia has already committed to the peninsula will start to get very hungry.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Add in NATO as I'm expecting and the situation shifts a little?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I wouldnt entirely discount Ukraine.

YEs the figures look daunting.

But Russia is a HUGE country.

Russia cant deploy all there military just to Ukraine. They need to keep a sizable portion of men and equipement in the Caucasus plus they still need to protect the border along china.

So even though Ukraine may have only 1/5 the power of Russia chances are Russia can only deploy 1/5 its might.

reply to post by crazyewok


I think it's going to be difficult for both sides, i don't think these two armies want to fight with each other,and they should just say no, the Politicians/Bankers/corporate vampires will be the only ones who will profit from their blood.

reply to post by crazyewok

---
AND!
if the US an UK add an additional 1/5, then we both can get a slice of that pie together!!!
Love the way you think! war strategy to the max!
Hell, lets add 1/5 of other nations militaries while we are at it too!
That WW 3 started to look a little more realis..............

The facts are, despite possible genetically ethnic similarities, perceived ethnicity in Ukraine is very much aligned to identity and affects language and voting in very obvious ways.

The west Ukraine is more EU supportive, Ukrainian speaking and identifying as ethnic Ukrainian and the East is more Russia supportive, Russian speaking and identifying as ethnically Russian.

Crimea is predominantly pro Russian, Russian speaking and identifying as ethnically Russian. Many there view their placement within Ukraine as illegal and the parliament there has more than twice made formal attempts at complete independence from Ukraine.

Many Crimean and pro Russian Ukrainians were very offended at the trashing of Lenin's statue during the recent turmoil and made formal complaints about it. Emotions there are often very attached to their ethnic, linguistic and political preference.

Similarly, for example, whilst the UK areas might share much genetic ethnicity, Scotland, Wales and England very much identify with their cultural perceived ethnicity.

Some maps showing these ethnic, linguistic and political preferences and how they are obviously perceived holistically as general identity.

Geographical proximity also is infleuntial, those closer to Europe, having more European industry connections and therefore more financial dependency from Europe and having more to gain from European deals. Those in closer proximity to Russia having more Russian industry connections, more financial dependency on Russia and more to gain from Russian deals.

That said, Ukraine generally has strong ties to Russia and is in receipt of aid, and financial assistance from Russia as well as deals for paying off it's debt and reduced gas prices and other financial and military ties.

www.washingtonpost.com...

reply to post by crazyewok



Officially Russia has 1 million reserves but unofficial number is 5 million. Upto 20 million are trained as conscripts at least.


Also, military of Khazakastan is fully operated by ethinic Russians.

DJW001
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Do you think Ukraine is important enough for Russia to commit all of its military assets to? Will they pull all their soldiers out of Kaliningrad, abandon the Russo-Chinese border, shut down Arkangelsk? No. On the other hand, Ukraine can and must fight to the last. If they can destroy enough roads and blockade Sevastopol, the troops Russia has already committed to the peninsula will start to get very hungry.

Russia will take Eastern Ukraine also in the way it took Crimea.

reply to post by all2human


IF it goes to actual shooting, then IF NATO actually supports the Kiev Government with equipment and men with rifles in the street fighting.....we have World War III by definition, right?

We'd better be on Alert in the Pacific too. Everyone thinks about North Korea and China being land borders right by Japan and US strategic interests (including the home port of an Aircraft Carrier). What I don't often hear mentioned about that same very small neighborhood is the Russian equivalent of Pearl Harbor at Vladivostok, on the Kamchatka peninsula.

If it comes to Russian flagged forces in direct conflict with NATO or US flagged forces.....we're naive to think that stays inside the nice geographic boundaries we'd like to define. Russia still stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific oceans with military all across that has been building and modernizing for at least a few years now.

Gotcha...is what this is starting to feel like. We got played while Russia has been building. The problem still is though, "we" played our own way into this mess...as McCain's clear history of support for the Ukrainian revolt/coup on behalf of the senior levels of U.S. Government policy has shown.

What a total, unmitigated mess. Where are some professionals when we need them? Churchill? Eisenhower? Wiley Coyote? Anything but what we're looking at..

This is a moment I hope we are simply seeing show business for a pre-planned event, to be totally honest. If it's not, we're in deep and getting deeper.

reply to post by DJW001

If they can destroy enough roads and blockade Sevastopol, the troops Russia has already committed to the peninsula will start to get very hungry.

I think if Ukrainian forces start blowing things up in World War II style tactics measuring loss of infrastructure with need to win a war? Russia will absolutely take them up on the offer of treating it like a true war ..and it'll be short, brutal and totally decisive. It won't be in the Ukraine's favor. They physically do not have the math to do this.....

Ukraine Finds Its Forces Are Badly Equipped to Take Crimea Back From Russia

Russia isn't a small nation. They don't follow others lead for technology or cutting edge....except perhaps ours..and that's always debatable. The 90's saw the Russians fall to damn near 3rd world status at the bottom of it, but they rallied to a level where they have almost no national debt, no encumbrances to doing things however they want, and while they have a Chinese leadership apt to see things with an 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' if push comes to shove. We aren't their best friends right now either, to finish that thought.

The US is in full reaction mode, when I don't believe for a moment this wasn't being war gamed far into the future by the Russians since before Kiev actually fell to the coup. Russians are equals..I can't say that enough. They aren't second to us. They are equals to us. If we look down on them, we won't see the ACME safe they drop on us. It's a bad bad way to go about all this.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The only reason Russia has the money for an army is because they struck it rich by exporting gas and oil. It was not an economic miracle, it was ruthless exploitation of their natural resources. The wealth has not been spread around, either. It is precisely this state sponsored croney capitalism that led to the protests on the first place. Putin has to quash the rebellion in Ukraine before it spreads to Russia. If his current attempt at blitzkrieg fails, his position could become desperate.

It would not be in the best interest of the US to get involved in this mess, and the people are not going to support another war for the ICBs.

So far it looks like Russia protecting Crimea, and with the current treaty it has rights.

If Ukraine tries to force Russia out of Crimea, then Ukraine will be violating the treaty.

If Russia were to go so far as a full scale invasion, then it will most likely draw the European Union into the war, and in that scenario, Russia will most likely be outmatched.

Russia is a nation just getting back on its feet, it would be very stupid for them to engage in such a conflict.

That would be the ICBs wet dream. their finger prints are all over this mess.

poet1b



If Russia were to go so far as a full scale invasion, then it will most likely draw the European Union into the war, and in that scenario, Russia will most likely be outmatched.

Russia is a nation just getting back on its feet, it would be very stupid for them to engage in such a conflict.

That would be the ICBs wet dream. their finger prints are all over this mess.

Russia is not backing down. This is my interpretation. The real reason is NATO expansion eastwards and Russia, like in Georgia 2008 has drawn the line on its "near abroad".

Very unfortunate to say, but we are risking WW3 here. NATO has been wise to keep silent and hope it keeps silent.

After Crimea, East Ukraine will be taken in the same way.

It is the right wing with hidden support from EU, which has messed up all for Ukraine.

Extremely tragic that upto 100,000 people all over the world die each single day out of hunger related issues and here we are risking WW3 for a country of BUMS/DRUNKS/PIMPS/CORRUPTS/EVILS who bankrupted their nation despite being independent for nearly 25 years.

DJW001
reply to post by MysterX

 

In other words, of course differences, even pathetic and seemingly petty differences, whipped up and used to marginalize and demonize certain groups and sections, are absolutley used as a motive for slaughter and genocide as is shown repeatedly throughout history.

Exactly. So why are you furthering the cynical propaganda that "ethnic Russians" are somehow under threat? The entire issue here is that Putin has gone from attempting to protect legitimate Russian assets (the actual naval base in Crimea with its attendant hard- and wet- ware) to attempting to politically control the entire peninsula. It has nothing to do with protecting "ethnic Russians," because no-one has ever threatened them! Even the Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis in the Second World War directed their genocidal tendencies towards Jews and Tatars, not Slavs.

I would argue that while ships and Naval facilities are indeed valuable assets, PEOPLE are even more so...these are the valuable assets Russia is organising to defend, in addition to it's hardware.

The differences between the 1940's and 2014 are stark.

In the 1940's, Germany headed by the NAZI party sought to create a European empire through firstly political and ideological agreement and alliance, and if that failed, through strength of arms using its formidable war capabilities.

Today, Germany minus the NAZI party ideology of course, is pretty much the linchpin of the EU, but obviously still has one eye firmly gazing at the image of a European empire. This time the 'empire' has been predominately gained peacefully with political agreement by member states, but it seems a sprinkling of the 'old magic' still remains.

Ukraine's Government signalled they were not going to join the 'empire', snubbing the political overtures from the EU, then apparently the EU switched tactics, and chaos and mayhem came to Ukraine...sponsoring aggression or doing it with uniformed troops, amounts to the same thing.

I respect Germans, their leaderships's tactics..not so much. So those comments should in no way be taken or thought of as being directed at average Germans as it is not...i hope they, and the rest of us don't get suckered into renewed suffering for a new generation by a German leadership / EU with dreams of consolidating a European empire...yet again.

Look at the history of the areas you claim Putin is 'attempting to control'..they are full of ethnic Russians, who have always been politically loyal to Russia, and so of course to Putin. He doesn't have to 'attempt to control' anything there, Russia has for all intents and purposes, always had the support of the majority of people in those areas.

While ethnic Russians do not appear as yet to be targets for slaughter, in the midst of chaos and mayhem, victims and targets are usually actively sought and are usually found deserving or not. Since the main protagonists in 'the Ukrainian situation' appear to be the EU/US and Russian Federation..it seems a sensible option to fear Russians may well have become those victims.

This hasn't happened to the Russians in Crimea, because of the Russian no nonsense, no dithering approach..unlike as i said earlier, the UN with Bosnia and Kosovo.

It is better to be quickly and efficiently in place to prevent a potential tragedy happening, than to arrive late and bury the dead after one.

It seems Putin and the Russians think in a similar way, by sending a clear message to those who could potentially consider carrying out a slaughter, in more or less the form of a 'hands off' or 'don't get any ideas' message by sending a limited force to protect Crimea and it's large numbers of Russian people.

I see nothing wrong with that, quite the opposite actually..it is something i would like to think Britain would do for a large number of Ex-Pats living abroad in a hostile situation, as i'm sure a lot of Americans would want their own Government to act as protector to themselves in a similar situation too.

reply to post by MysterX


Please provide an example of violence against an "ethnic Russian."

victor7

poet1b



If Russia were to go so far as a full scale invasion, then it will most likely draw the European Union into the war, and in that scenario, Russia will most likely be outmatched.

Russia is a nation just getting back on its feet, it would be very stupid for them to engage in such a conflict.

That would be the ICBs wet dream. their finger prints are all over this mess.

Extremely tragic that upto 100,000 people all over the world die each single day out of hunger related issues and here we are risking WW3 for a country of BUMS/DRUNKS/PIMPS/CORRUPTS/EVILS who bankrupted their nation despite being independent for nearly 25 years.

edit on 2-3-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)

Remind me again which side is trying to whip up ethnic hatred?

reply to post by DJW001


Ethinic Hatred? It is the AngloSaxon led NATO which is whipping up the ethinic hatred towards Slavic Russians.

Read history of last 300 years and get informed.

This Georgia, Ukraine or Chechneya or Cold War I etc. etc. are only small chapters in the big book of Ethnic Hatred.

CNN mentions Cold War II.........................NATO vrs EuroAsia.

But it will not be on ideology of containing commies. It is based purely on ETHINIC HATRED......Go Figure !!

reply to post by MysterX


I don't think this is about nationalism, but about the bankers trying to buy another piece of the board.

I don't expect either Russia or Ukraine to take action first, because the first to fire a shot will lose the most.

What will be most likely, is some sort of false flag operation, where an anonymous group attacks one side or the other, in order to start WWIII.

That would probably come from the people who started the other WWs.

Will we get fooled again?

Five top military, police commanders take oath to Crimea

A number of high ranking Ukrainian officials in Crimea have sworn their allegiance to the autonomous republic of Crimea, as Simferopol pushes for its autonomy from the self-imposed government in Kiev.

The head of the Security Service of Crimea Petyor Zima, Chief of Department of Internal Affairs in the Crimea Sergey Abisov, the head of Service for Emergency Situations Sergei Shakhov and acting Chief of the Border Guards of Crimea Victor Melnichenko all took an oath of allegiance to the people of Crimea.

Earlier rear admiral Denis Berezovsky swore allegiance to the people of Crimea taking control over Crimea's newly formed Navy.

rt.com...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Gotcha...is what this is starting to feel like. We got played while Russia has been building. The problem still is though, "we" played our own way into this mess...as McCain's clear history of support for the Ukrainian revolt/coup on behalf of the senior levels of U.S. Government policy has shown.

What a total, unmitigated mess. Where are some professionals when we need them? Churchill? Eisenhower? Wiley Coyote? Anything but what we're looking at..

Well said Wrabbit, i agree, it is a terrible mess.

But it had to happen sooner or later in all honesty.

With the US/UK programme of regime changes 'for democracy' or 'Humanitarian reasons' going off like fireworks all over the shop, there had to come a point when other world leaders, at least with some muscle behind them, were going to say enough is enough..i had hoped that particular one was going to be Syria and the brakes were going to be applied, and that would be that for a good while...but Ukraine?

On Russias literal doorstep?

That is one firework much too far...what the hell are they thinking?