Prisoner saves $11,000 -- but state wants it to cover jail stay

Originally posted by searching4truth
If this is allowed to occur, I wonder how many more people will be sent to jail as opposed to probation or other methods?

You also have to consider that they aren't just talking about forfeiting prison labor pay. If that were the case, they could just go ahead and force prisoners to work for free. (Corruption incentive.)

This will open the door to total control over prisoner assets while they are incarcerated.

reply to post by benrl


Exactly, or what about the person being held in contempt (as someone mentioned)?

If they don't want people to earn money, then don't have the program, it's very simple. Or have them work, making furniture, license plates, etc but have that "wage" go directly to paying for their cost of living.

If he had saved $9,999 the state would not be going after him, they are only going after him because he saved over 10,000. Actually, if he had cashed out and sent his daughter the money at 9,999 we still wouldn't hear of him, only because he was saving with purpose do I now know his name.

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by StigShen

 

I do believe the corruption in the system in general is absurd and the war on drugs a huge waste.

That being said we are a country of laws, this comes down to a legal matter for the courts, and has huge implications to the future of how we handle prisoners and prisoners. Lets not focus to much on this one murder and his "rights" as that is what they want so people (like me) will say "HEY he killed people he get no money"

People need to look on the larger picture, are we okay with this being applied say to the kid whose in there for selling a joint to his buddy?

OR the stock broker in there for insider trading.

See if this stands it applies to all inmates, the discussion should not be about this one dude but the larger issue.

Or the guy who killed the child molester who raped his little girl.

A good friend of mine, his step father got paroled after 15 years in Green Haven on a murder charge. He was sitting in his driveway in a car, with his whole family, about to go Christmas shopping. A drunk driver came flying across the lawn and killed his whole family almost instantly. My buddy's step father is a moose of a man. He got out of his car, dragged the drunk from out of the wreck, and proceeded to beat him to death with his bare hands.

Originally posted by syncelebrity
reply to post by StigShen

 

They get tv's, heated rooms at 70 degrees, beds( those who cant sleep can request memory foam), Huge meals that are fresh prepared (most of the time), phone calls, any medical attention they ask for, some get tobacco, Junk food, free lawyer representation to be used against the doc and state as well as co's. The list go's on and on.

If only curse words could be used on ATS. Listen guy, I don't know if you have ever been to jail or prison or not, but I have, and it was for something minor, I did 6 months.

The places that did have TVS were poor quality and no sound unless you purchased a $20 radio. Heated rooms??? The only temperature control at Polk Youth Institute is a FAN. Try going there in the Summer, yeah, I did, not fun.

Huge meals!???!!! ARE YOU FLIPPING CRAZY? You get one small tray and FIVE minutes to eat it. So many inmates lose weight it's ridiculous. And as for the freshness? Can we say leftovers? Fresh food everyday would cost the state too much for it's felonious children.

Phone calls? Yeah, those cost money, you don't have money, you don't get to call. I made 1 phone call during my 6 month stay, and it was wonderful to hear the voice of a family member and to let them know I was okay.

Medical attention you say? Any that they ask for? My...now I know you've never been to prison, that says it all. Colds pass around rampant through state institutions, as do skin disorders, of which I suffered several. Every time I filled out a medical request they gave me the wrong cream to treat it until 2 weeks before I left I FINALLY got the help I needed.

Junk food...yeah, same as the phone, if you have the money. My family's hard earned money was spent on hygiene products for me, because what they give you if you are indigent is very poor quality.

And let me blow your last statement out of the water here... I am currently paying the state $100 a month until 04/2012 to pay back my court appointed attorney. No free legal services here.

Forgot to mention here that I was jumped by 3 gang members while I was sitting on my bunk reading a book, my first day in that cell block. Also had my prescription glasses stolen my 2nd day in (a different block).

reply to post by Blaine91555

He murdered an old man and attempted to kill two others. Whether he deserves whatever he gets is moot as he does deserve it. The money should go to the victims family though and not the State. No Murderer should ever be able to profit or save money while in jail.

That rubs me the wrong way.

So you are saying SCREW his daughter?

reply to post by StigShen


Or how about the guy who got drunk and drove home fine but got pulled over and sent to jail...

See we can come up with scenarios all day about why the people are in jail, and everyone can come up with a extreme example for both sides easily enough and most likely from their own life experiences.

The point should be argued for or against based on "Charging inmates for their own incarceration" alone, let that issue stand or fall on its own.

This is just plain wrong! The guy was a brutal murderer who killed an old man, and attempted to kill two Chicago Police Officers. He was convicted of the crime, and is serving out a 60 year prison sentence. Moreover, he is not up for parole until 2028. Now he should be punished because he did not purchase soap, cigarettes, or soda pop in the prison commissary? Why should a person be punished for being thrifty? How much money has the state received since he has been a part of the prison work program? Now, they want to go after the money he saved to support his daughter? State law states that the DOC can collect only three percent of an inmate's wages, and according to the reports they already have.

Prison er saves $11,000 -- but state wants it to cover jail stay

A Will County judge ordered Hawkins to pay but also prevented the Corrections Department from seizing his bank account. Both sides appealed.

Glad and David Simonton, also of SNR Denton, argued that the Corrections Department had already deducted 3 percent of his wages, about $751, to pay for his incarceration and was not allowed to collect more. The Illinois attorney general's office, representing the Corrections Department, said the state is not limited by the wage offset from later filing a civil suit seeking more funds.

The man has committed some heinous crimes, but it seems he is making a legitimate attempt to rehabilitate himself with learning a trade craft and participating in the prison work program. He is serving his time at Statesville Correctional Facility. To put things into perspective, Statesville is one of the toughest prisons in the State of Illinois.

Homicide inside the walls of Stateville

Richard Conner is among the state's most dangerous inmates, a convicted murderer who was locked up in solitary confinement at Illinois' only super-maximum security prison, where the "worst of the worst" are held.

But after nearly killing himself in a suicide attempt, he was moved for medical treatment to another prison, Stateville Correctional Center near Joliet. For the first time in more than two years, he was placed in a cell with another inmate, Jameson Leezer, a petty criminal and prison lightweight who had earlier been transferred to maximum-security Stateville because of a rules violation.

Just two weeks later, on April 2, Leezer was found strangled in his cell. He was only 16 days from his scheduled release.

Guards assaulted at two Illinois state prisons

At the maximum-security Stateville Correctional Center in Joliet, a correctional officer was stabbed multiple times during an incident at the prison commissary Monday night, labor union officials said.

The facility was immediately placed on lockdown, which limits movement by inmates. Union officials say the injuries are not life threatening.

That is just some of it, but this incident takes the cake in its brutality. Urban legend has it, that a gang dispute in 1983 among one of the gangs in Stateville led to one of their own being dismembered and ground up by rival in the butcher shop who was paid in narcotics and money. The remains of the disloyal gang member was served to other inmates during dinner and the entree for that evening was meatloaf.

Shortly before the bells rung for the inmates to go to evening chow in the inmate dining room, two gangs already had much advance warning about what not to eat that night. The GD's and the Latin Kings spread the word amongst themselves: don't eat on the main line tonight. In the dining hall that night, only the gangs that did not know the real recipe for the meatloaf ate their food. Some inmate chow hounds were pleasantly surprised to find so many friendly Latin Kings and GD's offering their entree for the evening meal to other hungry inmates.

wiki.answers.com...

The murdered gang member's remains were recovered in 1995 on a tip from another inmate.

Skull Found At Prison Is Inmate's

Authorities confirmed Saturday that a skull found at Stateville Correctional Center near Joliet was that of a Chicago inmate who had been missing since 1983.

The skull was that of Carlos Robles, who was 25 when he was reported missing July 10, 1983, said Nic Howell, a spokesman for the state Department of Corrections. Robles disappeared about a week before he was scheduled to have been released, Howell said.

"That was what made the case odd in the first place," Howell said.

The skull was found Friday afternoon in the former basement of the Stateville's C House, now a recreation yard. Further excavations in the immediate area where the skull was found uncovered feet, arms, fingers and teeth, all apparently belonging to Robles, Howell said.

That is a little history about how notorious Stateville Correctional Facility is. Not a pleasant place to do time. If this inmate is making cabinets, furniture, or license plates in the work program, and has saved his meager earnings he had ought to be able to keep it. This tells me and should others, that he is not conducting gang activities, smuggling contraband, shanking inmates or correction officers, or other nefarious acts behind bars. The state is making plenty of money taxing everything else. What is a measly 11-grand going to do in alleviating the fiscal crisis in Illinois? Absolutely nothing! This is the usual run-of-mill Chicago style shakedown. This case should be heard in front of the US Supreme Court if a favorably decision is not met at the state level. Just more Chicago/Illinois shenanigans.

reply to post by benrl


And the answer is an unequivocal no. What if this was not money he had earned in prison? What if it was money that he got from a settlement from being beat up by a guard or something? Or money put aside to pay off a child support debt? As it is, they aren't taking the money from him, they are taking it from his daughter. What the heck is he gonna do with 11-grand in the can?

reply to post by StigShen


And for me personally I am unsure how I feel about the issue either way, I just prefer we all look at it from a less emotional based view as that is probably what the people behind this case want, and emotionally charged choice based on the mans crime.

Now thinking about it though I would say you sway me with your argument a bit, as the money could be for food or education, but again to the court the plans for the money do not matter as they could be a ploy by the prisoner to hold on to his funds.

In general I am against government taking away property of its citizens, but when we commit a crime we do lose some of our inherent freedoms, the question is should property ownership be one of them.

I think its a matter of scale also, should some crimes deem that they lose the right to property? we already do this with crime, some crimes you lose your 2nd amendment right (for life) some you don't.

If they want him to pay for his prison stay, then they need to pay him at least minimum wage for the hours he worked. If the state really wants it's money they should go after whoever had him work for a $.25 per hour. That's who benefited from this all. Hopefully this case will evolve and require employers to pay prisoners honest wages. If the state then wants to take most of it, then I am ok with that, but they should get something to keep as an incentive and the ability to satrt over..

i hear alot of hate towards this guy but the fact is that he is still a human. if it was on of your kids that did that and wound up in jail you would prolly be singing a different tune. that is still someones father, someones brother, someones child.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by searching4truth

 

He murdered an old man and attempted to kill two others. Whether he deserves whatever he gets is moot as he does deserve it. The money should go to the victims family though and not the State. No Murderer should ever be able to profit or save money while in jail.

Of course in Illinois they may make him Governor before it's over.

Utterly ridiculous. He was being paid a wage in return for work. Of course they clearly believed they do not have to follow their own rules about minimum wage when they offered the 50 cents per hour or whatever it was.

First, the state agreed to pay a murderer $11,000. Then they changed their mind. Anybody who participates in the taking of the $11,000 therefore should take the murderer's slot in prison when he is released. As for the $11,000 going to the victims family, that is ridiculous. The person who died cannot be compensated for damages because that person is now dead.

And as for the victim's family, they were not the ones attacked. Therefore they are not entitled to any compensation. If someone owes you money and they refuse to pay would it be best to go and collect it from his brother by force if he won't pay the debt owed? No. Likewise, the brother does not actually have a right to compensation if his brother is attacked. The idea of compensating people who were not damaged with money because someone they cared about was damaged is ridiculous.

It would be appropriate to charge the killer $11,000 which then goes to any non-government charity of the killer's choice. However, that was clearly not part of the verdict when he was convicted. To add punishments onto someone's verdict after the punishment has been specified is simply criminal.

Most people who commit murder sometimes never meant for it to happen in the first place such as acts of uncontrolled extreme anger, fights that get out of hand, drugged up crazy attacks, and literal acts of insanity. In those cases, punishment for the sake of punishment does not actually accomplish any thing. In those cases, forced prevention measures like jailing the person do make sense but not for the sake of justice but for the sake of public safety achieved in taking criminals off the street. In these cases, it is perfectly reasonable to offer someone a salary in which they are paid, and then not re-neg on your offer later on and STEAL THE MONEY.

Theft is a crime. Taking without permission is a wrong! If someone owes you money, it does not give you the right to take by force from that person what is owed unless it was part of the contract to do so.

This is a case where one criminal is being wronged by another. And to be fair, its not okay to commit crimes against criminals. Regardless of what most people think, criminals are actually people with rights. I know, crazy concept.

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by StigShen

 

And for me personally I am unsure how I feel about the issue either way, I just prefer we all look at it from a less emotional based view as that is probably what the people behind this case want, and emotionally charged choice based on the mans crime.

Now thinking about it though I would say you sway me with your argument a bit, as the money could be for food or education, but again to the court the plans for the money do not matter as they could be a ploy by the prisoner to hold on to his funds.

In general I am against government taking away property of its citizens, but when we commit a crime we do lose some of our inherent freedoms, the question is should property ownership be one of them.

I think its a matter of scale also, should some crimes deem that they lose the right to property? we already do this with crime, some crimes you lose your 2nd amendment right (for life) some you don't.

If this goes through, you will be charged rent for a weekend stay in the county jail. It's prison profiteering, plain and simple. Just because you are a criminal does not give the government the right to seize your assets. (Unless they were gained as part of a criminal enterprise, which I really don't agree with either though.) It's extortion, plain and simple. When prison becomes voluntary, then they can start charging rent.

Originally posted by jaycen420
i hear alot of hate towards this guy but the fact is that he is still a human. if it was on of your kids that did that and wound up in jail you would prolly be singing a different tune. that is still someones father, someones brother, someones child.

For me, who he is, what he did is irrelevant. Do the police have the right to shake down drug dealers? No. And prisons dont have the right to shake down convicts.

reply to post by StigShen


Get ready for plenty of shakedowns in the times ahead. Not by the police though, it will be the military and the DHS. I really feel bad for this guys daughter. Its like she is now getting punished too.

reply to post by StigShen


And that's only if they can find them . Intelligent white collar criminals who made a million + off of their criminal deed know better than to put there money in a US bank.......or a bank at all.

reply to post by jaycen420


Here in NY if you get caught driving drunk, they can hit you with a whole slew of charges for one single instance of DWI. The one they like to use all the time now is Driving While Intoxicated AND an additional charge of aggravated DWI over a certain BAC. Basically, it's double-billing. Twice the fine, twice the court fees. Which what the heck is that anyway? A court fee? Isnt the fine a fargin court fee?

The other one they have now too is Leandra's Law. Automatic felony if you drive drunk with a kid in the car. Sounds like a good idea at first glance, but there are a few problems with it. First of all, the logic is that no one elses kids are in danger in other cars when you drive drunk? But then get this. They make it a felony as an aggravating factor to have a kid in the car, because it's child endangerment. So what do they do now? Charge you with the DWI as a felony under Leandra's Law, and then STILL charge you with child endangerment. Again, double billing. Charging you twice for the same crime.

Next thing you know, you drop a plastic gum wrapper on the sidewalk you're going to get charged with littering, disorderly conduct, public nuisance, endangering pedestrians, toxic dumping, and terrorism.

Originally posted by StigShen

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by searching4truth

 

He murdered an old man and attempted to kill two others. Whether he deserves whatever he gets is moot as he does deserve it. The money should go to the victims family though and not the State. No Murderer should ever be able to profit or save money while in jail.

Of course in Illinois they may make him Governor before it's over.

Maybe the old man deserved it.

Your mood says "Zen" and you apologize for a murderer. Just when I thought I'd seen most everything Must be violent, vindictive kind of Zen that does not value life?

Originally posted by Blaine91555


Your mood says "Zen" and you apologize for a murderer. Just when I thought I'd seen most everything

Must be violent, vindictive kind of Zen that does not value life?

Vengeance is not part of my zen, as a general rule. But you want revenge against a murderer who maybe was seeking revenge against another murderer. Lol. .

Originally posted by StigShen

Not to mention the fact that 80% of the people in prison who are actually guilty, probably wouldnt even be there if there was meaningful opportunity for Americans. A minimum wage that was a living wage for one thing.

This may come as a surprise to some folks, but most drug dealers and gas station stick up bandits don't get rich. And most would much rather be working some 9-to-5 than risking prison or getting their head blown off.

You sound very much like you side with violence and criminals?

Since there actually is no place on Earth you can go with more opportunity, I wonder why you limit your criticism to America? If a person can not make it here, there is no place they can make it.

First you defend a Murderer and now you apologize for Drug Dealers and Armed Robbers? Those kinds of arguments only work with people who are criminals or violent themselves. If you think violence and stealing from innocent people is the answer to social problems I can't help but wonder