The Conspiracy to Deny the Spirit

Originally posted by Jademonkey2k

People need a new path in life, and aithiesm is the perfect choice, you are free to live your life as you see fit without the dogmatic guilt of modern day religion.

Everybody knows in thier hearts whats right and whats wrong, you dont need a religion watching over your shoulder judging your every action.

Maybe atheism is the perfect choice for you but why is it the perfect choice for everyone else? Have you ever considered people enjoy believing in a spiritual world which we can't perceive?

Oh, that's right, it is ridiculous to think something exists which we can't sense.

Atheism is NOT the perfect choice. In fact, Diversity is the perfect choice. When everyone turns to one belief it becomes easier to control everyone. So you can instill laws that help the world but hurt the citizens.

If humanity is one thing it is creative. If there was no religion we would fight about other things. Maybe things like land, terrorism, assassinations, power grabs.

But to think one belief system is the perfect one is as crazy as saying Christianity is the right belief system, if everyone believed. Or communism is the perfect choice because everyone is equal. In reality, harboring one belief system will give rulers a power unlike the ones you get with diversity.

reply to post by NewlyAwakened

And where does it say that "in his own image" refers to the physical looks of God? After all, we all look different, don't we? Which one of us looks the most like God?

That would be me then

Or is it maybe possible that "in his own image" is a bit more metaphorical, referring perhaps (just as one possible speculation) to the idea that the Universe itself is self-aware, and we are independent, self-aware beings, basically a "spiritual microcosm" of the Universe itself?

Hey I'm up for speculating dude no problemo, but at the end of the day I will always demand evidence for any actual claims.

You've really sort of proved one of the OP's points here, that atheists often have quite narrow-minded views on the nature of God.

Sorry to disappoint but as an atheist I don't believe that a god ie in the judeao abrahamic tradition exists due to lack of evidence.

As you had not specified which god you were referring to I rather presumptuously assumed you were referring to the above my apologies. Clearly this is not the case and you have a different god in mind, so where did you first hear about your god or was it in a book or something ? Does it have a name or are you just considering the opposite of no god scenario and attempting to build an hypotheses from there ?

Perhaps your typical uneducated brainwashed religion thinks God is something external, and this is the notion that atheists are reacting to,

I tend to somewhat agree with you hear, however I don't think the labeling of a god makes for any better a case without evidence.

but everyone I've talked to who is somewhat serious about spirituality does not see God as some external entity separate from the Universe or separate from the beings in it.

You don't appear to be tied up in the "faith" thing from what I read here so I'm more inclined to enter into speculative dialogue .,

reply to post by Equinox99

If humanity is one thing it is creative. If there was no religion we would fight about other things

I hardly think that is a valid argument for keeping reilgion

Originally posted by Jademonkey2k
Good post chap, stars and a flag for you.

My personal thoughts are that people arnt abandoning thier religioins, infact i would suggest that in some cases its stronger then every (Islam for example)

I think alot of people either conciously or subconciously try to live thier lives acroding to religion and thier various teachings (Love thy fellow man, thall shall not kill, love thy neighbour). Weather thier religious or not we all try to be good people.

People need a new path in life, and aithiesm is the perfect choice, you are free to live your life as you see fit without the dogmatic guilt of modern day religion.

Everybody knows in thier hearts whats right and whats wrong, you dont need a religion watching over your shoulder judging your every action.

If you'l excuse the expression, its every person god given right to live thier lives as they see fit, they shouldnt be judged on thier actions regardles of a specific religion. Faith, truth and freedom are the new religion, and they rock!

I think Islam is becoming more prevalent because of its uncompromising stance. Too many Christians are following the Pope's drive for pluralism and Islam makes no apologies, they believe they have it right.

Yes, morality is pretty much universal, because "the law is written in the hearts of all men". It takes a pretty evil person to make people compromise their morality, like when Hitler abolished the 5th commandment. Atheism may be the ideal choice for some, but horrible for others. Giving up on my faith sucked and many atheists have found purpose in God. Even with religion, you have free will, you can go out murder, steal, or do whatever you want. God will rarely intervene in these matters, because that would compromise your ability to change by choice alone. Hitler and the SS had a very long time to turn from their wicked ways, and contrary to popular belief, God was there in Auschwitz in the form of the 5th commandment and common morality: "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for their's is the Kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are ye, when men revile you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." So do not pity those who died at the hands of the wicked, they have been comforted. Pity those who survived, like Eli Weissel, and pity the wicked for they had their chance to be the peacemakers, merciful, and pure in heart, but now they are in darkness and their regret will never die.

The guilt associated with dogma is for the most part, well earned. We all know the law even if we don't know the specifics. Is it better to live without these morals? Should we sacrifice our righteousness simply so we can say we are bound by nothing? Athiests have morality, just like every other human being. We all know that the left hand path is wrong, so is it really worth traveling?

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by Equinox99

 

If humanity is one thing it is creative. If there was no religion we would fight about other things

I hardly think that is a valid argument for keeping reilgion

Well there are scored of arguments but I was merely trying to show that humanity WILL fight over other things if religion was not one of them. And YES it is a valid argument. Because you say it isn't a valid argument doesn't make it so.

Your vision about reaching a utopic society if religion was abolished is not a very valid argument. No matter how many times you try to convince yourself you aren't looking at the real facts. Abolishing religion will not stop any wars from happening. We will always have greed, urge for power, dominance, and ignorance no matter where you go.

This does not exclude the all perfect, all knowing atheists. This includes EVERYONE.

reply to post by kallisti36

That was a well-stated apologetic for the deep yearnings we all have and which we try to satisfy with everything but the personal communion with God that alone satisfies our spirit. Yeshua, or Jesus, united the Uncreated with the Created, in His Person, and by union to Him, we find the fullness of Truth, both propositional and intuitive- communion with the Divine.
And as we go deeper with the Divine-Human Jesus we find that we enter a Communion that Has gone on for Eternity- the Communion of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Three that are One. The composite unity spoke of by Moses. The 'let us' of the decision to make man in His own Image. Also the creator of the bodiless powers, some of whom chose at the moment of their creation to live outside of the will of the Eternal Father and became the source of all infernal, including the rumors of aliens, who are really fallen angels in a materialistic guise to deceive ultimately, material man, tube and meat man.
But against this end-time madness there is the clear word of God spoken to us ensnared by the Material Matrix, and the Shroud of Turin with its 3D information and other marvelous mysteries point us back again to the glorious fact of the Resurrection of Christ and the singularity it was in the calling forth of a new heavens and a new earth. Even so, come Lord Yeshua.

This is an interesting thread, not least because the OP clearly states a trend, I've noticed lately amongst many 'christians' on ATS. For some reasons the rats seem to be leaving the sinking ship, and an increasing amount of 'christians' are either emerging as non-denominational or are unwilling to clarify their doctrinal homeground.

I still don't know, if this is an honest individual reaction to the growing confusion amongst 'christians' exposed to a rather massive criticism or another christian tactical trick by distancing themselves to the collective bad name of the christianities, so the preaching and proselytizing can go on with a clean slate: "See, I'm free of allegiances".

But the basic problem is still there, just moved one step away from the denominational collectives. Now it's not 'our interpretation', but 'my interpretation'. The same old manual, filled with blood, fables, selfcontradtions, politically convenient covenants and nonsense about a geocentric universe, geology being put their to test the faith of believers and a schizoid god with a severe multiple personality syndrome, who on even days has fits of rages, and on un-even days is everloving.

And critics, atheists, are 'bad theologians', because they dare to question this irrational mess.

But the message is still the same, no matter how sugarcoated it is in fake-tolerance and -acceptance. The delusions of grandeur thrive as ever. Quote:

" My final admonition is for the spiritual. Among these are the New Agers, the Wiccans, the Buddhists, those who study the Eastern Philosophies. To you I say, that you are at a rest stop on the road, you have come to acknowledge the soul and you have come further than many. However, you should not remain here, for these places are empty and the road ahead is long and short."

How does this differ from the trite megalomania of the collective christianities is impossible to see..

And...quote:

"Again, I am a Christian. It is the duty of all Christians to proselytize"

Nothing new here either.

And let me round this up with, quote:

"To compare an omnipotent, omnipresent, being with no beginning or end like YHWH with Bigfoot/the tooth fairy/leprechauns is a horrendous fallacy and simplification"

How so? A fable is a fable, no matter how embellished or elaborate it is.

Now I am personally quite convinced of metaphysical claims of an invisible world. But at the same time I'm so relatively sane, that I can go through life without cramming guesses about this invisible world through a sausage machine, so it comes out in a form, I can use to keep the big, bad existential uncertainty away.

The question is asked (quote):

"Will my personal testamony convince anyone?"

And my answer is: NO. Your eagerness for answers is shining through, even before you have learned to ask the right questions.

Just an example: If you'd had any real and broad knowledge of the invisible world, you would know, that it manifests in so many subjective ways when experienced, that even slightly approximative conclusions are the result of long processess. Based on the febrile need you have for missioning and condescencion, I honestly doubt, if you have the patience or the competense to go through the difficult journey to 'reality'.

There are paths better authenticated and tested by people more equipped for the job than you, and your present position is commonly described as being in a blind alley. If you're content to be there, I'm glad for you. But you are not in a position to mission for anyone from there.

Re Equinox99:

Quote:

"Abolishing religion will not stop any wars from happening. We will always have greed, urge for power, dominance, and ignorance no matter where you go.

This does not exclude the all perfect, all knowing atheists. This includes EVERYONE."

So in the same vein, there was no need to stop nazism either, as mankind in any case is lost.

Personally I don't go for abolishing religion, but I believe it would be a very great step forward for worldpeace and similar mundane phenomena, if (especially) Abramic religions could turn down their aspirations of world monopoly.

reply to post by kallisti36

How often are you confronted by religion in society today? Rarely ever, right?

Try every time I watch a movie, turn on the television or open up a website like ATS. Maybe the term confrontation is a bit strong, but religion and superstitious thinking is EVERYWHERE if you know what to look for. Just today in the build up to the Monday night Football game I heard at least half a dozen references to God and you can't escape a post-game interview without them thanking God for something he didn't do. In most television shows and movies there's at least one superstitious person, if they aren't praying they are clinging to a cross or a lucky rabbits foot. That's not to mention my Fundamentalist Father who I have to deal with on a regular basis.

So because the media is slowly becoming used to atheism that's somehow a bad thing? And why the jab at Mormons and JW? What makes your beliefs any more valid than theirs?

This indifference is programmed into us

I can assure you that indifference towards religion was never programmed into me. In fact I was raised as one of those Fundamentalists you mentioned, although I never swore allegiance to the King James. I was programmed with religious content and it took years of independent thought, philosophical and logical, to break free of that. There were only a handful of materials at that time that helped bring about my current atheism and the one that helped me lose my faith the most was the Bible itself.

Ponder this as you deny the experience of the billions of people who have felt God touch their lives, if only for a moment.

I don't deny the experience of anyone who claims God has touched their lives, I don't deny the experience but I do question whether it was God causing it. One doesn't need the supernatural to produce profound emotions and epiphanies - those are part of the human experience and they occur in all religions and in plenty of atheists. The difference is that believers attribute these things to their god(s). By the way whether something is true or not is not defined by feelings and emotions or even little voices in your head. Empirical evidence is what is needed to show that a god or gods exist.

Your statement is especially funny after you got done insulting Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and offering them a backhanded compliment before belittling Fundamentalists and their 'idiocy'. So clearly you deny their experiences on some level as you think they are wrong. And what of Hindus, Buddhists, Shamans, Pagans, and alien abductees. If you accept one brand of these sorts of experiences you must accept them all and therefore believe a dozen self-contradicting things.

Or perhaps you have noticed the yearning of the soul, for something.

The only time I ever noticed a yearning was when I was a Christian. Christians perpetuate this myth that human beings cannot be whole without some supernatural answer to everything. I used to get fed this sort of BS all the time in youth groups and on religious themed shows I used to watch as a Christian. This idea that we're missing something, that our lives cannot be filled unless Christ is in our hearts. What absolute poppycock. I've been an atheist for a year now and let me say that I've never been more satisfied with life and my life, by most people's standards, is dirt boring. The reason is because I stopped looking for something that wasn't there and realized I was fine the way I was.

No evidence of a soul or spirit has ever been found. I'm not denying the possibility of a soul or spirit but without evidence there is absolutely no good reason to believe. Just like with Fairies, Santa Claus and Reptilian Shape-shifters.

I urge you to accept Yeshuah as your savior, if not, keep the law and you shall be judged well (I will explain in another thread what Yeshuah meant when he said that only through him may you enter the Kingdom of God).

I urge you to stop looking to a supernatural Savior and save yourself. You can do this simply by loving your fellow human beings and being a good person not for the sake of any eternal reward but because its the right thing to do. Also, kudos for actually getting his name right, I do tend to get tired of Christians who call him Jesus since that most certainly wasn't his name.

In Conclusion:

There is a very good reason why the existence of the spirit is denied and that is the complete lack of evidence in favor. The aspects typically attributed to the spirit or soul - deep emotions, religious experiences, etc - are, as best we can tell, merely part of what the brain does. The flesh is the spirit and to separate them is pointless.

reply to post by bogomil


I got part way down on your post and I have to interject.......the falling away I believe is due to people getting educated and asking questions.When I was a kid I heard a lot to strange things from the pulpit. I mean from midwestern fundamentalist pulpit. ( I am 49 yrs old now) I have been exposed to a lot of different christian aproaches. In the last 6mo. I have to say I have found that the reason the Holy Scriptures have so many loop holds is because it was created by man. In 1997 the archialogical professor at Tel Aviv University (spell check) uncovered that neither Soloman nor David were part of the Temple. Also there is a conspiracy involving Moses really being three different charactors and then there is the Jesus Mithres crap....sorry for having sort of a brain but when Marduk says "I am that I am" and keeps his true name out of the picture,I have to go...STOP...something isnt right with this picture.When a GOD says "Thou shalt this and Thou shalt not this" WOE WAIT A MINUTE...where is the truth and when does it dissapear to in the name of FAITH.its either true or its not true.It either happened or it didn't.It either happened or it didnt. And if its all really about connecting with the Creator of the universe then why all the wars?. Seriously, when do you kick out the spiritual parinoia, except free will and not impose on any body else. I guess the next thing to say is Pray in my own closet ?. really I am pissy about other things but I just said what I have wanted to say for a long long time......thankyou for the opertunity...and forgive the poor spelling

reply to post by kallisti36


I also have testimony. I sought God with all my heart and all my soul and I experienced invisible stigmata twice. First time was convinced I was hallucinaing, but second time I also experienced absolute bliss. I prayed for personal evidence that would convince me and I received it. Before I was an atheist who realized nihilism was the final destination, so instead of waiting for evidence I sought it. It is as is written, God rewards those who seek Him.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by kallisti36

 

I also have testimony. I sought God with all my heart and all my soul and I experienced invisible stigmata twice. First time was convinced I was hallucinaing, but second time I also experienced absolute bliss. I prayed for personal evidence that would convince me and I received it. Before I was an atheist who realized nihilism was the final destination, so instead of waiting for evidence I sought it. It is as is written, God rewards those who seek Him.

edit on 13-12-2010 by 547000 because: (no reason given)

Or if you truly believe it, then you will convince yourself. Exposure to stigmata is the result of your mental state being so convinced of your beliefs that it will physically manipulate you.

And I must ask, what is the significance of even experiencing the holy stigmata? To feel what Jesus has felt? I'd rather have my own metaphysical experience.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by kallisti36

 

How often are you confronted by religion in society today? Rarely ever, right?

Try every time I watch a movie, turn on the television or open up a website like ATS. Maybe the term confrontation is a bit strong, but religion and superstitious thinking is EVERYWHERE if you know what to look for. Just today in the build up to the Monday night Football game I heard at least half a dozen references to God and you can't escape a post-game interview without them thanking God for something he didn't do. In most television shows and movies there's at least one superstitious person, if they aren't praying they are clinging to a cross or a lucky rabbits foot. That's not to mention my Fundamentalist Father who I have to deal with on a regular basis.

So because the media is slowly becoming used to atheism that's somehow a bad thing? And why the jab at Mormons and JW? What makes your beliefs any more valid than theirs?

This indifference is programmed into us

I can assure you that indifference towards religion was never programmed into me. In fact I was raised as one of those Fundamentalists you mentioned, although I never swore allegiance to the King James. I was programmed with religious content and it took years of independent thought, philosophical and logical, to break free of that. There were only a handful of materials at that time that helped bring about my current atheism and the one that helped me lose my faith the most was the Bible itself.

Ponder this as you deny the experience of the billions of people who have felt God touch their lives, if only for a moment.

I don't deny the experience of anyone who claims God has touched their lives, I don't deny the experience but I do question whether it was God causing it. One doesn't need the supernatural to produce profound emotions and epiphanies - those are part of the human experience and they occur in all religions and in plenty of atheists. The difference is that believers attribute these things to their god(s). By the way whether something is true or not is not defined by feelings and emotions or even little voices in your head. Empirical evidence is what is needed to show that a god or gods exist.

Your statement is especially funny after you got done insulting Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and offering them a backhanded compliment before belittling Fundamentalists and their 'idiocy'. So clearly you deny their experiences on some level as you think they are wrong. And what of Hindus, Buddhists, Shamans, Pagans, and alien abductees. If you accept one brand of these sorts of experiences you must accept them all and therefore believe a dozen self-contradicting things.

Or perhaps you have noticed the yearning of the soul, for something.

The only time I ever noticed a yearning was when I was a Christian. Christians perpetuate this myth that human beings cannot be whole without some supernatural answer to everything. I used to get fed this sort of BS all the time in youth groups and on religious themed shows I used to watch as a Christian. This idea that we're missing something, that our lives cannot be filled unless Christ is in our hearts. What absolute poppycock. I've been an atheist for a year now and let me say that I've never been more satisfied with life and my life, by most people's standards, is dirt boring. The reason is because I stopped looking for something that wasn't there and realized I was fine the way I was.

No evidence of a soul or spirit has ever been found. I'm not denying the possibility of a soul or spirit but without evidence there is absolutely no good reason to believe. Just like with Fairies, Santa Claus and Reptilian Shape-shifters.

I urge you to accept Yeshuah as your savior, if not, keep the law and you shall be judged well (I will explain in another thread what Yeshuah meant when he said that only through him may you enter the Kingdom of God).

I urge you to stop looking to a supernatural Savior and save yourself. You can do this simply by loving your fellow human beings and being a good person not for the sake of any eternal reward but because its the right thing to do. Also, kudos for actually getting his name right, I do tend to get tired of Christians who call him Jesus since that most certainly wasn't his name.

In Conclusion:

There is a very good reason why the existence of the spirit is denied and that is the complete lack of evidence in favor. The aspects typically attributed to the spirit or soul - deep emotions, religious experiences, etc - are, as best we can tell, merely part of what the brain does. The flesh is the spirit and to separate them is pointless.

Ok, the "jab at Mormons and JWs" is that they claim to be Christian but deny essential tenets (JW's believe Yeshuah was Michael the Archangel, deny the trinity, and such) or blatantly contradict scripture, history and common sense (Mormons; tacking on a new book despite the commandment against it in Revelation, reformed Egyptian, plates that Joseph Smith couldn't reproduce, and belief in millions of Gods). I am speaking from a Christian perspective, JWs and Mormons claim to be Christian, but have heterodox doctrines. They are either erroneous from a Christian perspective or they are not Christian.

My jab at angry fundies is that they alienate people from Christianity with their hate speach and ignorant doctrines like KJV only. Go to Jesus-is-Savior.com These are the people of whom I am speaking. You think I take a hard line against non-Christians? I believe non-Christians are wrong, I believe those who deny that they have a soul are lost. The only people I believe are wicked are those who purposely lead others astray. David J. Stewart at Jesus-is-Savior means well but the entire place is a rage storm and 90% of people will go away from that page disgusted with Christians. I distance myself from angry fundies, Roman Catholics, and theologically ignorant Christians not because I want a "clean slate" like another poster suggested, but because I want to share what Christianity is really about, by being as Christ-like as possible (I suck at it, but I try). Yeshuah didn't promote organized religion, but he did say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me". This doesn't leave much room for pluralism and ecumenicalism. Faith in Yeshuah (which includes faith in his teachings; I believe the Sola Fide doctrine to be irresponsible. Faith without good works is dead) is the only way to bypass Sheol and enter Heaven. This is why I proselytize, I don't want people to be Judged if they have a way out. If I can't convince a person to accept Yeshuah as their savior, then I will tell them to be good and keep the law and to nurture the spirit. If you deny your spirit and smother it, you will be much less in the World to Come. So if you will not consider returning to faith, then atleast reconcider denying your soul.

Also did you catch my comment about how "we are only aware of our souls when they are in pain"? Perhaps being content isn't the way to go. I believe that contentedness is stagnation, we can always do better. People need a goal, something to drive them forward. The drive is very similar to the soul search and they often overlap, because they are both soul affirming. Sadly the drive is far too often one of greed, which will corrupt the soul.

I don't understand why Christians call Yeshuah Jesus either. Names don't translate from language to language. Jesus comes from the Latin Iesus, which is pronounced Yay-Zuess; nice pagan connotations.

Anyways, I hope you find YHWH again.

Originally posted by bogomil
Re Equinox99:

Quote:

"Abolishing religion will not stop any wars from happening. We will always have greed, urge for power, dominance, and ignorance no matter where you go.

This does not exclude the all perfect, all knowing atheists. This includes EVERYONE."

So in the same vein, there was no need to stop nazism either, as mankind in any case is lost.

Personally I don't go for abolishing religion, but I believe it would be a very great step forward for worldpeace and similar mundane phenomena, if (especially) Abramic religions could turn down their aspirations of world monopoly.

Strangely I believe that it would be a very great step forward for worldpeace if people including 'Christians' actually followed the teachings of Yeshuah to the letter. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you" this is a few verses after: "Whosoever therefor shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven"

Re Kallisti

You wrote:

"No one can come to the Father except through me". This doesn't leave much room for pluralism and ecumenicalism."

Indeed, it doesn't leave room for anything than what you're pushing.

Quote:

"If I can't convince a person to accept Yeshuah as their savior, then I will tell them to be good and keep the law and to nurture the spirit."

Did these people ask for your advices, or do you feel divinely guided to play guru for them?

Quote:

""we are only aware of our souls when they are in pain"? Perhaps being content isn't the way to go. I believe that contentedness is stagnation,"

I take it, you practise flagellantism then.

Re Kallisti: Re me

You wrote:

""Whosoever therefor shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven"

reply to post by kallisti36

Ok, the "jab at Mormons and JWs" is that they claim to be Christian but deny essential tenets (JW's believe Yeshuah was Michael the Archangel, deny the trinity, and such) or blatantly contradict scripture, history and common sense (Mormons; tacking on a new book despite the commandment against it in Revelation, reformed Egyptian, plates that Joseph Smith couldn't reproduce, and belief in millions of Gods). I am speaking from a Christian perspective, JWs and Mormons claim to be Christian, but have heterodox doctrines. They are either erroneous from a Christian perspective or they are not Christian.

There are over 30,000 different sects and divisions of Christianity and all of them are different. Each and every denomination contradicts history or scripture on some level, in fact every single Christian contradicts or disregards various scriptures in the Bible whether they understand that or not. For instance you don't see many Christians going around stoning people to death for working on the Sabbath or keeping slaves even though both of those things are condoned in scripture, this is likely because they believe the New Testament and Christ's teachings supersede the old testament. So all Christians on some level pick and choose which scripture to believe and which to discard and no two denominations believe the same.

My jab at angry fundies is that they alienate people from Christianity with their hate speach and ignorant doctrines like KJV only.

Having been raised a fundamentalist I can understand why someone would disagree with them, they're dead wrong on a lot of subjects, however not all Fundamentalists are ignorant, angry or hateful - not all of them are Fred Phelps in other words. I do agree that their teachings often scare people out of Christianity, in particular the idea of Biblical literalism. If I had not been taught the Bible was the absolute 100% inerrant word of God I would probably not be an atheist, because it was that belief followed by actually reading the Bible that began the downfall of my faith. The Bible is too self-contradictory and confusing to be considered the word of any God, let alone a good and merciful one.

If I can't convince a person to accept Yeshuah as their savior, then I will tell them to be good and keep the law and to nurture the spirit.

Keeping the Law of Moses is a bad idea. Keeping the law of Jesus, which is basically to love one another, is a good idea. I can only hope you are referring to the latter.

If you deny your spirit and smother it, you will be much less in the World to Come.

This sort of thinking only holds sway over the superstitious though. In the same way telling a kid if they stop believing in Santa he might not give them presents. I don't base what I believe on hypothetical afterlives and etheral phantasms like a spirit. The fact of the matter is there is no empirical or scientific evidence suggesting there is an afterlife, a god, or a spirit. If there is a god out there and that God is good I fail to see how it is fair to punish someone infinitely for a finite list of offenses and I also don't think a good God would punish someone for using logic and reason and relying on evidence instead of faith.

Anyways, I hope you find YHWH again.

I understand you mean this as a nice gesture but I respectfully decline to find Yahweh again. Yahweh, if the Bible is true, is evil. Now I am open to the idea of a god existing but if that God were Yahweh and the Bible were 100% true than I would be 100% against Yahweh. I mean this is the same God who six chapters into the Bible decides to drown EVERYTHING, puppies, kittens, babies, everything. How small minded a God is he that his first inclination is to pour out horrific wrath on a mostly innocent creation? Even if all the adult human beings were evil what is stopping him from finding a way to regulate their behavior or introduce a moral conscience into their minds with just a mere thought, I mean He's God after all. The God of the Bible is a very limited, angry, jealous and, if taken overall, evil God. Yeshua I don't have much a problem with but I draw the line at Yahweh.

Originally posted by bogomil
This is an interesting thread, not least because the OP clearly states a trend, I've noticed lately amongst many 'christians' on ATS. For some reasons the rats seem to be leaving the sinking ship, and an increasing amount of 'christians' are either emerging as non-denominational or are unwilling to clarify their doctrinal homeground.

I still don't know, if this is an honest individual reaction to the growing confusion amongst 'christians' exposed to a rather massive criticism or another christian tactical trick by distancing themselves to the collective bad name of the christianities, so the preaching and proselytizing can go on with a clean slate: "See, I'm free of allegiances".

But the basic problem is still there, just moved one step away from the denominational collectives. Now it's not 'our interpretation', but 'my interpretation'. The same old manual, filled with blood, fables, selfcontradtions, politically convenient covenants and nonsense about a geocentric universe, geology being put their to test the faith of believers and a schizoid god with a severe multiple personality syndrome, who on even days has fits of rages, and on un-even days is everloving.

And critics, atheists, are 'bad theologians', because they dare to question this irrational mess.

But the message is still the same, no matter how sugarcoated it is in fake-tolerance and -acceptance. The delusions of grandeur thrive as ever. Quote:

" My final admonition is for the spiritual. Among these are the New Agers, the Wiccans, the Buddhists, those who study the Eastern Philosophies. To you I say, that you are at a rest stop on the road, you have come to acknowledge the soul and you have come further than many. However, you should not remain here, for these places are empty and the road ahead is long and short."

How does this differ from the trite megalomania of the collective christianities is impossible to see..

And...quote:

"Again, I am a Christian. It is the duty of all Christians to proselytize"

Nothing new here either.

And let me round this up with, quote:

"To compare an omnipotent, omnipresent, being with no beginning or end like YHWH with Bigfoot/the tooth fairy/leprechauns is a horrendous fallacy and simplification"

How so? A fable is a fable, no matter how embellished or elaborate it is.

Now I am personally quite convinced of metaphysical claims of an invisible world. But at the same time I'm so relatively sane, that I can go through life without cramming guesses about this invisible world through a sausage machine, so it comes out in a form, I can use to keep the big, bad existential uncertainty away.

The question is asked (quote):

"Will my personal testamony convince anyone?"

And my answer is: NO. Your eagerness for answers is shining through, even before you have learned to ask the right questions.

Just an example: If you'd had any real and broad knowledge of the invisible world, you would know, that it manifests in so many subjective ways when experienced, that even slightly approximative conclusions are the result of long processess. Based on the febrile need you have for missioning and condescencion, I honestly doubt, if you have the patience or the competense to go through the difficult journey to 'reality'.

There are paths better authenticated and tested by people more equipped for the job than you, and your present position is commonly described as being in a blind alley. If you're content to be there, I'm glad for you. But you are not in a position to mission for anyone from there.

"And critics, atheists, are 'bad theologians', because they dare to question this irrational mess" this is directed at militant anti-theists who like to use Dawkins and Hitchens as sources for their every hateful minimilization of religion. Dawkins and Hitchens are NOT theologians and happen to be ignorant in much of it. They don't bother to search for redeeming qualities in the religions they despise, because they despise them. There are dispassionate atheist theologians who are much more credible than Dawkins or Hitchens, because they question, but don't hate religion. When you're angry, higher thought processes go out the window and you're less likely to gain any full picture. Anti-Theists open a Bible they look for and fume over passages of harsh judgement and war, and skim over passages explaining why the Canaanites needed to be destroyed (child sacrifice, wickedness) or how YHWH denies David the right to build the Temple of the Lord, because he had been a man of war. After a certain amount of fuming their brain switches priority to the orbitofrontal cortex and peripheral vision. Once their vision goes peripheral they can't actually read the Bible anymore, and happen to notice the webcam on the other side of the room. They then go to Youtube and make videos promoting the virtues of science, reason, and theological ignorance and join up in militant atheist packs to more effectively tear apart Christians. Creationists earn extra points.

"Just an example: If you'd had any real and broad knowledge of the invisible world, you would know, that it manifests in so many subjective ways when experienced, that even slightly approximative conclusions are the result of long processess. Based on the febrile need you have for missioning and condescencion, I honestly doubt, if you have the patience or the competense to go through the difficult journey to 'reality'" You must know everything about 'reality' and the 'invisible world' if you feel you can write off my personal experiences. I must not have the competense to interpret my own feelings and experiences, I'm so glad you're here to tell me what 'reality' is. I'm sorry, I'm being rude. I have this febrile (nice, fever delusions, eh?) need for missioning and condescencion, you see.

Actually I have no personal desire for missioning, I do what is required of me. This reply alone has taken considerable effort and it's 11 pm as of now. What I seek to do is to do is get as many people to willingly accept the mercy of God as I can. Yet you attack me. We may disagree, but surely it's the thought that counts? You see, while a Christian tries to save souls (whether they are right or not, this is their intent) and an atheist disagrees without raising a fuss, an anti-theist, even if they are in the right, are no different than an adult who takes away a child's toy and tells them, "Go get a job! Playtime is over! Your imaginary friends aren't real". You know what? I've seen your 'reality' and I must say, it's pretty lame. Even if I'm just the delusional kid playing alone with his stuffed tiger it's still a heck of alot better than the cubicle and the 9-5 job.

How about for a change of pace, I quote an extra-Biblical writer: "One word, Ma'am," he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. "One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one more thing to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."-Puddleglum in the Silver Chair by C.S. Lewis

Suppose that there is no God or higher spiritual power, then all that remains is the object and the subject. Why would you focus on the object? All good things are subjective: faith, hope, and love. Science has become far too focused on the objective, and let me tell you; it's empty. The only thing science will find in the objective is convenience. Convenient ways to live, to discount religion and personal experience, and convenient ways to murder and make man complacent. But to say that there is no God, is a statement with enormous implications. It means you have supreme knowledge of the cosmos and you know better than the majority of all who have lived and died on this planet. I however will stand by my Christ, and will stand for my God, because I know in my heart that YHWH lives.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


I dare say, perhaps if we believe we can fly we can sprout wings too?

When I waited for God to prove Himself to me, I found nothing. But when I decided to test the scriptures and seek God, I found everything.

The significance is, if you do not know which religion is right, and you have stigmata, then you know which is.

Re Kallisti

You wrote:

"I must not have the competense to interpret my own feelings and experiences, I'm so glad you're here to tell me what 'reality' is."

You probably explain yourself to yourself to your own satisfaction. Not to mine. And I can't tell you what 'reality' is, only what it definitively is NOT.

"Actually I have no personal desire for missioning, I do what is required of me."

Don't they all.

Quote:

" Even if I'm just the delusional kid playing alone with his stuffed tiger it's still a heck of alot better than the cubicle and the 9-5 job."

I can only agree. But being the local village original and having an old age pension, my contact with cubicles and 9-5 is minimal. Even smaller than my contact with the bibles.

I rather liked the rest of your little sermon, it was much more pleasant than when you tell people they are less spiritually developed than you.

Though your later 'god'-proof wasn't very impressive. You seem to have the idea, that if something can't be actively disproved it must be correct.

I believe in the man in the moon; I also have an omniscient talking mouse called Henry. Kindly disprove this.

Quote:

" I however will stand by my Christ, and will stand for my God, because I know in my heart that YHWH lives."

I don't think anyone will deny you this. However when you turn on the missionary zeal publicly, you must prepared for criticism.