Study finds genes on X chromosome linked to male homosexuality

StalkerSolent


Ah, OK, so you aren't going to argue for completely unrestricted pursuit of feelings. Cool. Where do you draw the line? For instance, what if I want to marry a second wife, and my first wife isn't a fan of this plan?
(And yes, I know the punishment for polygamy is polygamy...

)

Your wife can divorce you. Because she has the freedom to do that. So, problem solved.

Its her choice to stay with you or not. If you are the type that wants multiple partners, then your first wife probably doesn't want you anyway.

reply to post by StalkerSolent

There's no hypocrisy here. Suppose geneticists determine that promiscuous behavior is genetic. Or harmful sociopathic tendencies. Should religions accept them too? As far as I can tell, religions mostly hold that humans are capable of CHOICE, which is to say that they are capable of good and evil. This doesn't rule out genetic predispositions.

But it absolutely calls into question the supposed benevolence of a being that would create something predisposed to a certain life and then punish them for acting on that predisposition. Why create the predisposition to begin with. Just to F with us. Fortunately there is zero evidence of this biblical gods hand in our creation. Instead we should look to other moral arguments concerning acceptance towards LGBT.

StalkerSolent

Ah, OK, so you aren't going to argue for completely unrestricted pursuit of feelings. Cool. Where do you draw the line? For instance, what if I want to marry a second wife, and my first wife isn't a fan of this plan?
(And yes, I know the punishment for polygamy is polygamy...

)

I don't care to be honest. That is between you, your first wife, and your potential second wife. I'm sure your first wife will have some input on to how she feels about the situation since you are advocating adding a third person to this two person unit. Therefore this isn't a decision that you should make alone and is therefore a terrible example.

I already told you where I draw the line. When your actions harm me or infringe on my rights.

There's no hypocrisy here. Suppose geneticists determine that promiscuous behavior is genetic. Or harmful sociopathic tendencies. Should religions accept them too? As far as I can tell, religions mostly hold that humans are capable of CHOICE, which is to say that they are capable of good and evil. This doesn't rule out genetic predispositions.

edit on 16-2-2014 by StalkerSolent because: Agh! My text!

So you are saying that this is all ok because we can choose not to act on these urges? Even if those urges happen to be genetically working against us? Even if those urges are actually HARDER to make in favor of what God wants? That is ridiculous.

By the way, anti-social disorder, what you called sociopathic tendencies, is genetic. Also good and evil don't exist, they are just made up words to describe behaviors that certain humans don't like.

The differences in humanity are so glaringly obvious around here.


Here is something that sounds like a big plus to me:

However, there is now some evidence that genes linked to male homosexuality could increase fertility in women.

But woud there be any kissin'? That would certainly sweeten the pot for a lot of the ladies.


I have still seen no one list the multitude of benefits this find might provide. Other than the obvious nefarious plan of dividing and separating homosexuals from the world population that is. The means of eradicating homosexuality, it seems, is the only thing left no one dare mention.

"The thing that's consistent is that they all point to sexual orientation being something fundamental to a person rather than the lifestyle choice some opponents of equality repeatedly suggest."
Homosexuality Fundamental to a Person

Some of the comments here are as bad as Nazis here..eugenics is illegal and wrong. Cure? What os there to cure?.

BDBinc....................

>previous reply self-snipped because some part of me still remains a Lady and there is just no arguing with idiots.<

boymonkey74
Some of the comments here are as bad as Nazis here..eugenics is illegal and wrong. Cure? What os there to cure?.

Thank you.

2nd.

boymonkey74
Some of the comments here are as bad as Nazis here..eugenics is illegal and wrong. Cure? What os there to cure?.

The attitudes to homosexual people from a lot of ATS members, particularly the religious are quite shocking. We should count ourselves lucky religious conservatism hasn't been embraced the same way in the UK.

As for me, I respect science and medicine.
Progress has been brilliant. We can be a brilliant species.
When we want to.
However, in saying that, I must add that I don't believe
science and medicine is as altruistic and benevolent as we wish it were. Not always. We have proof.

I have asked outright for those who find this discovery so important, to also give reason why it is important in the way of what they would like to see done with it.

So far, no one has actually said what they would like to see happen in the aftermath of this research and its possible success.
Certainly, we have heard ad nauseum, opinions of how homosexuals are destroying the species. How life as we know it, is being undermined and destroyed by the existence of homosexuality.

I, for one, am always curious to know the reasons why someone thinks something is important. I would hope those reasons did not stem from fear, hate, or ignorance. Many times they do.

When we find the cure for Cancer, we are going to save millions of lives. Likewise with any potentially fatal disease.
Since both medicine and science has pretty much tried to tell the world that homosexuality cannot be classified as a disease, as people are so determined to call it, why is the discovery of this so vitally important to you?

I am assuming for some, it would be to "cure" homosexuality?
If one thinks so, they must also have wondered within their own mind how this might come about, this curing, this saving.

Do we force it upon homosexual people? You may have to.
What if they refuse? Will you round them up into a camp of sorts, and hold them until they are bound and forced into some injection, spray, operation? Will it be a voluntary cure. If they want it?

This, is what I would like someone to finally say.

What do you think should happen if they revealed to the world tomorrow, they have found the key to the door?


Thus far, I see so much fear and blistering ignorance on this board. Bigotry at peak.
Is it true then, their brains are smaller and therefore, unable to think a complete thought to its end? If not, the answers to the questions must be forthcoming at some point?

StarlightNine

What do you think should happen if they revealed to the world tomorrow, they have found the key to the door?

I can answer this for myself, though it's not from a perspective I think anyone else would find very useful.
Speaking only for me, I would hope one day that a conclusive genetic study of this kind, might help to close the door once and for all on the natural vs sinful debate. Nature/nurture debates I am not so worried about and as I have already written here, science proof or no, pressure to conform or no, I will not change my view of love and freedom to suit religious or even scientific ideology.

I just feel it is a lack of what most people would consider 'authoritative' confirmation by science and the ambiguous nature of homosexual origins philosophically, that has allowed religious ideologues to use ' absence of evidence of a natural derivative = absence of presence of derivative' arguments to justify wholesale murder, oppression and discrimination against people who are gay on 'moral' grounds.

In hope that science can somehow start the process of removing this moral justification for abuse, I think I am naively hoping the ground that supports these groups who commit these actions, will somehow magically crumble and room for reason might follow. I know it is altruistic and idealistic to think that way; that a determination in favor of a natural basis to homosexual behavior, rather than a moral ( immoral in this case) basis for behavior will somehow make such a big difference, but to me, it matters very much that these groups dont have this ground beneath them anymore, or at least, don't have the moral ground all to themselves.

Even if these groups don't change their views, views they are entitled as free beings to have, it may work to bring a halt to their actions or strengthen laws to stop them acting on them. Even more though, *I* will know, inside me, I will know 'for sure' that I didn't' cause' this to be or think it up somehow. In a sense I will have a new tool to silence that non local voice that says what I feel and think is wrong and evil and so, maybe I might know as most other people get to know in their life, that how I relate to the world, what and why I desire as I do, is really just how I am meant to be, that it really isn't some product of a diseased mind, spirit or soul. Its just 'how it is'. While for the most part I do do this now, as much as you try to stop it, that ideologue stuff sinks in really deep into psyche, despotically so, and surfaces regurgitated as my own voice within, regardless of what I would choose to think or want to to the contrary...this 'morally justified' perceptive on abuse is all I have heard since childhood.

As I had been groomed and conditioned to believe these things, all my life part of me has carried just those opinions ( that aren't mine ) forward and I have thought and felt since childhood that something was inherently *wrong* with me, that somehow it was *me* who had the problem. It has only been a very few years that I've been brave enough to even contemplate lifting this oppression, let alone striking the root of it, being too psychologically imprisoned despite my intellectuality and rebelliousness to just allow myself to begin to *think* about the fact it might not be me who has the issue here. " Really really. "

I have learned enough from studies of Israel/Palestine to know that it isn't the absence of a conscience or morals that enables you to switch off and compartmentalize your actual morality from the actions say, of killing a kid. More it is the perspective you embrace, or are conditioned or forced to embrace, that gives you permission, that allows you to do what you know deep inside isn't a moral act and is otherwise unconscionable, sometimes even to yourself. So here is where I feel a definitive statement from science can really help, in that it has the capacity to begin setting down an authentic foundation for a new and more inclusive perspective on what we view as 'natural' once and for all.

There is really was no self help written yet for the kind of internal psychological crisis that happened to me growing up or does still affect many people whether or not they have any belief or faith in a power greater than themselves. No matter what I have believed, or ever told myself, there was always this space in my head conditioned by the necrotic words of others, that meant I have constantly expended enormous amounts of energy just staving off depression and constantly firefighting against thoughts and fears and doubt; the voices of media of the religious and everyday people and even my own family, a collective swarm of bigotry constantly picking away at self esteem, constantly tapping, leaving me always questioning in the background, are they right? Am I evil? Am I 'bad' ? Should I exist?

Even having a scientific mind, and a spiritual body, having reason on board and loads of self esteem, it's still just there..this 'voice of the perspective of the world' type of thing that constantly threatens to invalidate every thing about how you are, not just who you are...it's a torturous pressure to live under, even without any active external abuse, it is oppressive and abusing in itself, it has its own life. So even knowing in my heart that science's lack of explanation is just being used to justify abuses and seeing these views are flawed and hypocritical, I still cant silence the...'what if'. Its like a hidden constantly morphing self doubt on steroids...and so corrosive.

I know science should retain its objectivity and technically doesn't have any power to actually determine peoples morality in an active sense in of itself, but I do know our use of it can and often does do just this. Both good and bad moral examples based on the use or misuse of science exist out there shaping opinions every day on lots of issues. Right now on this issue, only the misappropriation or misuse of science is being seen and heard. Science exists for everyone and that includes me and I know it's probably unhealthy to look to science for this type of approval and ammunition. I 'should' be able to just approve of myself and have this as 'enough'...as if it were that simple...and if I was just dealing with my own inner self doubt that might be even possible. I'm not though, I am facing off with the collective mind twitter of a hypocritical fearing world, every day.

Even if they did find absolute genetic presence, I know there would still be arguments about morality, but what is important to me, is that the opportunity would exist authentically, in our collective social world, to bring the other side of the picture fully into the equation and firmly into the debate. As a 'fact' to despoil bigots, I personally as a human would have what I feel I still need within to stand up for and to myself once and for all. Right now all I have is a growing body of evidence, that is too easily shot down so I need more from science on this, even if it comes out against' my perspective and moral position. I just 'need to know' once and for all.

I dont know if this position will make sense out of my head but I write it anyway..with no apology if it offends...its just one human to other humans and I dont want debate religion either this is just my pov and this is a moral parity issue for me not about undermining religion at all.

Rosha

StarlightNine

What do you think should happen if they revealed to the world tomorrow, they have found the key to the door?

I can answer this for myself, though it's not from a perspective I think anyone else would find very useful.
Speaking only for me, I would hope one day that a conclusive genetic study of this kind, might help to close the door once and for all on the natural vs sinful debate. Nature/nurture debates I am not so worried about and as I have already written here, science proof or no, pressure to conform or no, I will not change my view of love and freedom to suit religious or even scientific ideology.

I just feel it is a lack of what most people would consider 'authoritative' confirmation by science and the ambiguous nature of homosexual origins philosophically, that has allowed religious ideologues to use ' absence of evidence of a natural derivative = absence of presence of derivative' arguments to justify wholesale murder, oppression and discrimination against people who are gay on 'moral' grounds.

In hope that science can somehow start the process of removing this moral justification for abuse, I think I am naively hoping the ground that supports these groups who commit these actions, will somehow magically crumble and room for reason might follow. I know it is altruistic and idealistic to think that way; that a determination in favor of a natural basis to homosexual behavior, rather than a moral ( immoral in this case) basis for behavior will somehow make such a big difference, but to me, it matters very much that these groups dont have this ground beneath them anymore, or at least, don't have the moral ground all to themselves.

Even if these groups don't change their views, views they are entitled as free beings to have, it may work to bring a halt to their actions or strengthen laws to stop them acting on them. Even more though, *I* will know, inside me, I will know 'for sure' that I didn't' cause' this to be or think it up somehow. In a sense I will have a new tool to silence that non local voice that says what I feel and think is wrong and evil and so, maybe I might know as most other people get to know in their life, that how I relate to the world, what and why I desire as I do, is really just how I am meant to be, that it really isn't some product of a diseased mind, spirit or soul. Its just 'how it is'. While for the most part I do do this now, as much as you try to stop it, that ideologue stuff sinks in really deep into psyche, despotically so, and surfaces regurgitated as my own voice within, regardless of what I would choose to think or want to to the contrary...this 'morally justified' perceptive on abuse is all I have heard since childhood.

As I had been groomed and conditioned to believe these things, all my life part of me has carried just those opinions ( that aren't mine ) forward and I have thought and felt since childhood that something was inherently *wrong* with me, that somehow it was *me* who had the problem. It has only been a very few years that I've been brave enough to even contemplate lifting this oppression, let alone striking the root of it, being too psychologically imprisoned despite my intellectuality and rebelliousness to just allow myself to begin to *think* about the fact it might not be me who has the issue here. " Really really. "

I have learned enough from studies of Israel/Palestine to know that it isn't the absence of a conscience or morals that enables you to switch off and compartmentalize your actual morality from the actions say, of killing a kid. More it is the perspective you embrace, or are conditioned or forced to embrace, that gives you permission, that allows you to do what you know deep inside isn't a moral act and is otherwise unconscionable, sometimes even to yourself. So here is where I feel a definitive statement from science can really help, in that it has the capacity to begin setting down an authentic foundation for a new and more inclusive perspective on what we view as 'natural' once and for all.

There is really was no self help written yet for the kind of internal psychological crisis that happened to me growing up or does still affect many people whether or not they have any belief or faith in a power greater than themselves. No matter what I have believed, or ever told myself, there was always this space in my head conditioned by the necrotic words of others, that meant I have constantly expended enormous amounts of energy just staving off depression and constantly firefighting against thoughts and fears and doubt; the voices of media of the religious and everyday people and even my own family, a collective swarm of bigotry constantly picking away at self esteem, constantly tapping, leaving me always questioning in the background, are they right? Am I evil? Am I 'bad' ? Should I exist?

Even having a scientific mind, and a spiritual body, having reason on board and loads of self esteem, it's still just there..this 'voice of the perspective of the world' type of thing that constantly threatens to invalidate every thing about how you are, not just who you are...it's a torturous pressure to live under, even without any active external abuse, it is oppressive and abusing in itself, it has its own life. So even knowing in my heart that science's lack of explanation is just being used to justify abuses and seeing these views are flawed and hypocritical, I still cant silence the...'what if'. Its like a hidden constantly morphing self doubt on steroids...and so corrosive.

I know science should retain its objectivity and technically doesn't have any power to actually determine peoples morality in an active sense in of itself, but I do know our use of it can and often does do just this. Both good and bad moral examples based on the use or misuse of science exist out there shaping opinions every day on lots of issues. Right now on this issue, only the misappropriation or misuse of science is being seen and heard. Science exists for everyone and that includes me and I know it's probably unhealthy to look to science for this type of approval and ammunition. I 'should' be able to just approve of myself and have this as 'enough'...as if it were that simple...and if I was just dealing with my own inner self doubt that might be even possible. I'm not though, I am facing off with the collective mind twitter of a hypocritical fearing world, every day.

Even if they did find absolute genetic presence, I know there would still be arguments about morality, but what is important to me, is that the opportunity would exist authentically, in our collective social world, to bring the other side of the picture fully into the equation and firmly into the debate. As a 'fact' to despoil bigots, I personally as a human would have what I feel I still need within to stand up for and to myself once and for all. Right now all I have is a growing body of evidence, that is too easily shot down so I need more from science on this, even if it comes out against' my perspective and moral position. I just 'need to know' once and for all.

I dont know if this position will make sense out of my head but I write it anyway..with no apology if it offends...its just one human to other humans and I dont want debate religion either this is just my pov and this is a moral parity issue for me not about undermining religion at all.

edit on 17-2-2014 by Rosha because: (no reason given)

To say thank you, for that, would somehow lesson its power.
Thank you isn't enough for what you have written.
Your words are at once poignant, candid, gripping, and more human than I have had the pleasure of reading in quite a long time.
I did for a moment pause, as truth be told this shook me. These are the words that hurt. They speak not only from the eloquence of mind but from pure soul. So many have just become too weary to try to speak this anymore, and so this is what can speak for them in many ways.

I hadn't expected this. This response. I expected more of the same spirit crushing poison. And look, I have been both surprised and humbled. Very humbled by it. It has reminded me why I am in the fight at all, as I have been down in spirits of late, allowing the poison to get near to me. Looking for some way, some words, something.... perhaps, to ease only my own mind and heart about it. There is much ugliness here. As there is everywhere as well perhaps. But I think, no, I know, that these words have wiped clean many dirty things.

Regardless of how much hate and ignorance continues here, and it most truly will, I'm going to come back to this. When I find myself faltering here--whenever I decide to participate here--I can read this again if I need to. No one can take anything from this. Humanity in its weary benevolence. Thank you. So much.

reply to post by TheLotLizard


And then the color of our eyes and hair must be a disease as well seeing as we don't get to choose if we want blue or green eyes or red or brown hair. Oh wait there's the ones for skin color, height and weight. What about....the one that marks us as human?

A gay gene was not found. The unreviewed yet to be fully discredited study did not finds genes on X chromosome linked to male homosexuality .
(Traits are not eye color as some would tell you)
Don't believe every media release.
If people are wanting this gay gene nonsense to be true to make homosexuality - in their mind- "natural" or "not a sin" -that is the bias.

Lucid Lunacy
But it absolutely calls into question the supposed benevolence of a being that would create something predisposed to a certain life and then punish them for acting on that predisposition. Why create the predisposition to begin with. Just to F with us. Fortunately there is zero evidence of this biblical gods hand in our creation. Instead we should look to other moral arguments concerning acceptance towards LGBT.

edit on 16-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

Sure. A lot of people call into question the supposed benevolence of a being that would create the potential for pain, violence, and death, too. It seems like people generally call into question the benevolence of any deity that doesn't conform to their own perception of benevolence.

I suppose that means that, given the current state of affairs, any being (if it exists) can't make everyone happy, can it?
Funny, that.

So now, having gotten rid of God, what moral arguments do you propose we use? And from what should we create our morality? Or do you believe in some sort of natural law?

tothetenthpower
I suppose another nail in the coffin to the " it's a choice" argument?

It would appear that way, wouldn't it?

Furthermore, I've come to suspect that a big part of the "Homosexuality is a choice" argument comes from people who are secretly proud of themselves, for resisting their own bisexual or homosexual urges.

I mean, these people are often ridiculously confident of the fact, with almost no evidence. They must be basing this view on something, right?


Fact: Just because you may have "suppressed" your own homosexual urges by not acting on them, does not mean homosexuality is "a choice."


Some people have killed themselves because they can't stand how society views or treats them, and they felt powerless. Couldn't change how they feel, so they chose not to live in a world where people hate them for feeling something they can not control. Nothing about that says "homosexuality is a choice."



EDIT: I also find it amusing how uncomfortable (and sometimes angry) it makes the anti-homosexuality crowd when you simply ask them if their sexual identity is a choice. In other words: You think homosexuality is a choice, so does that mean that heterosexual people choose to be straight as well? Could you have just as easily "chosen" to enjoy sex with someone of the same gender? Of course not. If you're truly straight, that thought likely turns you way off. You didn't "choose" to be straight, in just the same way that gay people did not "choose" who they are attracted to...

Krazysh0t


So you are saying that this is all ok because we can choose not to act on these urges? Even if those urges happen to be genetically working against us? Even if those urges are actually HARDER to make in favor of what God wants? That is ridiculous.

By the way, anti-social disorder, what you called sociopathic tendencies, is genetic. Also good and evil don't exist, they are just made up words to describe behaviors that certain humans don't like.

Why is this ridiculous? Most moral theories involve making choices against our predispositions and doing hard things. This is an age-old, time honored concept. Whether the predispositions are genetic or the result of constructs (nature or nurture) man has a lot of tendencies that are generally considered unacceptable, and the solution hasn't been to say "restraining our urges is bad" but rather to determine which urges ought to be restrained.

Do you have evidence that sociopathic tendencies are genetic? I'd be really interested to see that, actually.
Rise, my army of supersoldiers...
*cough*

So, good and evil don't exist, they are just made up words. OK. Doesn't that mean that most concepts don't exist, they are just made up words? (I believe that's nominalism.) Doesn't that mean that rights don't exist either?

DeepVisions
I don't see that as much of an insult. If homosexuality truly is influenced by genes, then there is something abnormal with that person's genes. Every living thing is designed to reproduce and if everyone was gay then our species would last one generation.

Fair point. But perhaps it's a natural mechanism for population control.