At Least 31 American Patients Possibly Exposed to Fatal Prion Disease in Hospital

reply to post by unb3k44n7

Keep in mind the discussion now is about what is currently being used to sterilize prion-contaminated medical equipment

Anything from this PDF should do
www.shea-online.org...

There is good evidence to suggest that the most effective method for prion decontamination involves autoclaving in the presence of high concentrations of sodium hydroxide

Hmmm. As I said earlier, the biggest problem is how to deal with medical devices like scopes that cannot be autoclaved. As far as other instruments go, many are now disposable. At least in industrialized nations. That said, I still maintain that rickymouse was not "way off the mark" - just interested, and thinking. Maybe his thinking was a bit too outside the box for your taste but that does not justify patronizing disrespect.

reply to post by soficrow

That said, I still maintain that rickymouse was not "way off the mark" - just interested, and thinking.

Sure.

My argument Isn't I vs Rickymouse, It's towards your statements.

Again, "the discussion now is about what is currently being used to sterilize prion-contaminated medical equipment."

I am disrespectful now (conveniently after presenting you the sources) and you are now you are conveniently changing the subject to "disposable" medical equipment?

Awfully Telling.

reply to post by unb3k44n7

the discussion now about what is currently being used to sterilize prion-contaminated medical equipment.

I am disrespectful now (conveniently after presenting you the sources) and you are now you are conveniently changing the subject to "disposable" medical equipment?

I haven't changed the subject. Some instruments are disposable, some are re-used; the equipment most likely to be contaminated with prions cannot be autoclaved. Your main source recommends autoclaving with chemicals; this does not address the main underlying problems, not least of which is that exposure to chemicals and heat tends to create new prion strains.


Ed. to add: These are recognized problems in the medical field, if not well-publicized.

How should heat-sensitive instruments or materials that come in contact with suspected or confirmed CJD patients be decontaminated?

All disposable instruments, materials, and wastes that come in contact with high infectivity tissues (brain, spinal cord, and eyes) and low infectivity tissues (cerebrospinal fluid, kidneys, liver, lungs, lymph nodes, spleen, and placenta) of suspected or confirmed TSE patients should be disposed of by incineration. Surfaces and heat-sensitive re-usable instruments that come in contact with high infectivity and low infectivity tissues should be decontaminated by flooding with or soaking in 2N NaOH or undiluted sodium hypochlorite for 1 hour and rinsed with water.
[CDC NOTE: Sodium hypochlorite may be corrosive to some instruments.]

unb3k44n7
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Would bromelain or papain destroy the prions? Both of these would be inexpensive.

No.

They have no sterilization properties.
They're enzymes. They're good for digestion purposes and GI tract discomfort.

Chlorine is a highly corrosive element with sterilization and oxidation properties.

Two completely different uses and properties

But why couldn't you break apart the proteins with enzymes before sterilization? Sterilization and breaking down proteins are two different processes.

reply to post by rickymouse

But why couldn't you break apart the proteins with enzymes before sterilization? Sterilization and breaking down proteins are two different processes.

I don't know what to tell ya, your thoughts and ideas are noble and logical but they won't work and have already been shown not to work.

Prions are resistant to enzymes -- Prions are resistant to proteases, mostly because they cannot "break down" (denature) prion structure... this why prion containment and destruction is still being widely studied and discussed. Even the aforementioned chemicals are not fully effective...it can't be guaranteed in all cases to do the job...prions replicate aggressively and form very "stable" structures that are hard to "break"...

The sterilization process via chemicals in combination with using the autoclave"is" essentially the breaking down process.

This is why these chemicals are as of this time the current standard in all medical equipment sterilization.
...It's all we really have scientifically to go on right now that has shown any effectiveness.

If we knew how to prevent and stop prions from spreading in all cases,
and if we knew how to prevent prions from replicating in all cases, we would have nothing more to discuss on the matter.

And if we "threw away" all our medical instruments used during procedures on prion infected hosts we also would not need to be talking about sterilization of said instruments.

Fact being is medical instruments are pricy, especially the more advanced and accurate ones which do not always come in "disposable" options.

Why would there be any guidelines and procedure to sterilize them if we just thew them all away? --- There wouldn't be, because we wouldn't.

reply to post by rickymouse

But why couldn't you break apart the proteins with enzymes before sterilization? Sterilization and breaking down proteins are two different processes.

I don't know what to tell ya, your thoughts and ideas are noble and logical but they won't work and have already been shown not to work.

Prions are resistant to enzymes -- Prions are resistant to proteases, mostly because they cannot "break down" (denature) prion structure... this why prion containment and destruction is still being widely studied and discussed.

Even the aforementioned chemicals are not fully effective...it can't be guaranteed in all cases to do the job...prions replicate aggressively and form very "stable" and unique structures that are hard to "break"...

I guess a kind of analogy to describe prions are that prions are like a huge wall of a fortress being built by ambitious builders, and each rock they lay attaches to another rock -- making it one of It's own -- and eventually forms such a structure that no matter what you try to demolish it with it just doesn't budge.

I think the Romans would have like prions. [bad joke]

The sterilization process via chemicals in combination with using the autoclave"is" essentially the breaking down process.

This is why these chemicals are as of this time the current standard in all medical equipment sterilization.
...It's all we really have scientifically to go on right now that has shown any effectiveness.

If we knew how to prevent and stop prions from spreading in all cases,
and if we knew how to prevent prions from replicating in all cases, we would have nothing more to discuss on the matter.

And if we "threw away" all our medical instruments used during procedures on prion infected hosts we also would not need to be talking about sterilization of said instruments.

Fact being is medical instruments are pricy, especially the more advanced and accurate ones which do not always come in "disposable" options.

Why would there be any guidelines and procedure to sterilize them if we just thew them all away? --- There wouldn't be, because we wouldn't.


ETA: I'm done replying to this thread because points being made are constantly derailed into separate issues leaving any discussion completely counterproductive and chalk full of misunderstandings.

ETA 2: If you want to talk about general health rickymouse, as you mentioned with your post about eating fruits that contain enzymes for "health" reasons to potentially prevent prion infection in your body in the first place that is a whole different subject which should be discussed a different thread based on that subject. Cheers.

rickymouse

unb3k44n7
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Would bromelain or papain destroy the prions? Both of these would be inexpensive.

No.

They have no sterilization properties.
They're enzymes. They're good for digestion purposes and GI tract discomfort.

Chlorine is a highly corrosive element with sterilization and oxidation properties.

Two completely different uses and properties

But why couldn't you break apart the proteins with enzymes before sterilization? Sterilization and breaking down proteins are two different processes.

edit on 13-2-2014 by rickymouse because: (no reason given)

You're right - papain and bromelin both digest protein - and have been used for prion decontamination in medical research settings (enzyme-detergent method). Other enzymes also have been found that do the trick. As well, papain and bromelin are being used in patents for treating prion disease symptoms in living patients. Still, there are no guarantees and cost is a factor, especially for hospitals that are more interested in healthy profits than healthy patients.

* An enzyme–detergent method for effective prion decontamination of surgical steel

*

The new research tested the effects of the bacterial enzyme keratinase on brain tissues from cows with BSE and sheep with scrapie. When the tissue was pretreated and in the presence of a detergent, the enzyme fully degraded the prion, rendering it undetectable.“We reduced the prion to undetectable levels,” Dr. Shih said.

* Patent application title: METHODS AND COMPOSITIONS FOR THE TREATMENT OF SYMPTOMS OF PRION DISEASES

* Methods and compositions for the treatment of symptoms of prion diseases. US 20100092447 A1

reply to post by soficrow


Geeze, I can't even think of something that hasn't already been thought of I guess. Even tested. So since bromelain can break down proteins and is contained in bananas, pineapple, grapefruit, and other sources of things with long thin leaves it seems...why can't just consuming these foods help. Bromelain passes right into the body from the digestive tract, it is active in the body. It actually raises testosterone levels which build muscle and also does somewhat help with some aptosis.

Could a natural remedy to this problem be something so simple as drinking beer...which is clarified with either bromelain or papain? or eating one of the above foods occasionally. These two, bromelain and papain can tear up cancer cells by disolving the slime on them so the white blood cells can identify them...why not prions. The problem is that over using these things can cause similar problems to chemo therapy issues, but not as bad. These enzymes do fall apart at about 120 degrees though, pasteurizing kills the enzyme.

There are a lot of enzymes to research, your link addressed one I am not familiar with.....yet...I'm going to look it up.

reply to post by rickymouse

Geeze, I can't even think of something that hasn't already been thought of I guess.

Should I get the violin out?

ETA: I'm done replying to this thread because points being made are constantly derailed into separate issues leaving any discussion completely counterproductive and chalk full of misunderstandings.

ETA 2: If you want to talk about general health rickymouse, as you mentioned with your post about eating fruits that contain enzymes for "health" reasons to potentially prevent prion infection in your body in the first place that is a whole different subject which should be discussed a different thread based on that subject. Cheers.

Rickymouse: Your question was not about prevention of prion disease inside the human body, you asked me if enzymes were effective in breaking down external prion structure on contaminated medical instruments. Which is a resounding "no" and cited proof that It's a resounding "no" Stop playing victim because you didn't hear what you wanted to.

Enzymes are INEFFECTIVE in breaking down or sterilizing prion-contaminated medical equipment. It's a FACT. Do I need to repeat it? No.

And I won't because I'm out.

Nyiah
I'm not familiar with the prion thing (heard about it right here on ATS) But that heat resistant trait is something that perks my interest. What about it makes it's bonds impervious to heat? Even the toughest metals can be smelted back down, how is this protein stronger in that it can't be incinerated? Or is it that autoclaves aren't hot enough? If it's just the latter, and the medical professionals have half a brain (absolutely no pun intended) then smelt the stuff down already. Specialized tools for a single use in known cases is a far better way to control spreading than to leave it unchecked via "We can't get our sterilization machines hot enough".

Quoting myself because no one answered me yet... I'd really like an answer. Could this not be destroyed when metal is molten once again? why not simply destroy the instruments instead of complaining about the ineffectiveness of autoclave and chemical sterilization? It won't get rid of it in people, obviously, but it should mitigate spreading to a degree.

Ektar
Sorry I should have been more clear in my post. We were taught that the prions cannot be
killed by any means not heat, not cold & not by radiation or sterilization. So once an
instrument is contaminated it was contaminated for life. That was one of the reasons given
in the past to why some of those patients were not given autopsies. However that was in 1999
& things may have changed by now.
Thanks for asking that question out right as that's what I was insinuating &
also waiting to hear.

Cheers
Ektar

Really?

That is quite shocking to learn as it goes...prions can't be destroyed by heat, cold, radiation or other chemical sterilization?

Is there anything that can destroy them? If not, these things must be the hardiest forms of biology in the Universe.

What about vibration? Really Intense vibration...could this break them up? (Thinking out loud here)...other biological 'predators' maybe..you know, things that like to eat prions, that can be destroyed themselves once they have digested them?

There's got to be something we can do...if nature makes it, we can make a counter surely?

reply to post by MysterX


Actually, vibration or resonance might work to break apart these proteins. Heat increases the energy of the structure and maybe resonance can overload these bonds and make them fracture and not be a problem. It could also make them worse. How about repairing the prions somehow...I can't seem to find information on what exactly the flaw is. Proteins need a sulfide bond and also a nitrogen bond to work right. The protein needs to be spun in the right direction also, if it isn't the folding would not occur properly.

So I wonder if it would be possible to repair the prions with something like thio-sulfate containing foods. I wish I could find an article that talked about exactly what is wrong with the proteins that makes them fold improperly.

Now I am also wondering if high sulfur soaps will attach to the bonds of the proteins on the tools and make them wash off the tools. Another words a good pot and pan dishsoap. Maybe a simple change in the cleaning process can cause these things to wash off. I'm sure they are not using dishsoap to prewash these tools, it would be too cheap.

unb3k44n7
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Geeze, I can't even think of something that hasn't already been thought of I guess.

Should I get the violin out?

ETA: I'm done replying to this thread because points being made are constantly derailed into separate issues leaving any discussion completely counterproductive and chalk full of misunderstandings.

ETA 2: If you want to talk about general health rickymouse, as you mentioned with your post about eating fruits that contain enzymes for "health" reasons to potentially prevent prion infection in your body in the first place that is a whole different subject which should be discussed a different thread based on that subject. Cheers.

Rickymouse: Your question was not about prevention of prion disease inside the human body, you asked me if enzymes were effective in breaking down external prion structure on contaminated medical instruments. Which is a resounding "no" and cited proof that It's a resounding "no" Stop playing victim because you didn't hear what you wanted to.

Enzymes are INEFFECTIVE in breaking down or sterilizing prion-contaminated medical equipment. It's a FACT. Do I need to repeat it? No.

And I won't because I'm out.

edit on 2/13/2014 by unb3k44n7 because: (no reason given)

Read Sofi's post above about these enzymes presently being used to sanitize these medical tools...and it works. Why should we be limited to continually treating a problem when we could investigate ways to stop the problem from ever occurring?

Hmmm...Started researching the mechanism of how prions form and found an interesting article from back in 07. Seems that the body purposely makes some forms of prions in the brain to tie up problems that it can not get rid of. These prions are not the same as the ones we are discussing in this article though, they do not seem to be infectious. phys.org...

I probably should have put this in a different prion thread. These natural prions could still be a problem though to another individual if they are on the tools used in the future, that is why I put it here. One person's harmless prions could be bad for another person.

reply to post by Nyiah

why not simply destroy the instruments instead of complaining about the ineffectiveness of autoclave and chemical sterilization? It won't get rid of it in people, obviously, but it should mitigate spreading to a degree.

I am SO sorry Nyiah - I tend to check my "private messages" box and don't always scan all the posts. If you didn't hit reply on my post I would miss you.

In response - you are right. Destruction of contaminated and suspected-to-be contaminated instruments is recommended as being the only sure way to guarantee safety. It's well-known and documented. Problem is, it's costly. Most hospitals and doctors are in it for the money and do not want to cut profits; not-for-profit medical services don't have the cash.

However, unb3k44n7 is correct - chemical and autoclave sterilization is accepted as effective for prions on heat-resistant instruments that can go into an autoclave; there would have been a "risk-benefit analysis" saying the risk to patients was relatively low. And protecting medical industry profits is accepted as more important than protecting patients. From unb3k44n7's CDC link:

How should surgical instruments used on suspected or confirmed CJD patients be reprocessed?

Inactivation studies have not rigorously evaluated the effectiveness of actual cleaning and reprocessing methods used in health care facilities. ...

...Destruction of heat-resistant surgical instruments that come in contact with high infectivity tissues, albeit the safest and most unambiguous method as described in the WHO guidelines, may not be practical or cost effective.

On the other hand, heat-sensitive instruments are a whole other story - they can't be autoclaved, and they're REALLY expensive. So it's one thing to insist on a fresh new scalpel, quite another to expect a brand new scope.

FYI - I have medical issues that require diagnostic monitoring with angios and scopes - I started refusing such invasive procedures several years ago based on my own research. Wouldn't do it if I didn't know I am right.

reply to post by rickymouse

Could a natural remedy to this problem be something so simple as drinking beer...which is clarified with either bromelain or papain? or eating one of the above foods occasionally.

lol. I suspect the chemicals now used in beer manufacture are way worse. Eat the foods sure, but I wouldn't count on the beer not infecting you with some new prion strain.

But keep learning and thinking. It will all come together at some point.

There are some stories I've researched in my life for personal curiosity and education, that I came to dearly wish I'd left alone. Some things, if only a very very few, stand as examples where ignorance truly is bliss and knowing is not better than never being aware.

The story of prions, or scrapy (as it's called in the wild), or BSE as it's called among captive beef cattle, or CJD as it's called in human beings ...is one that is probably worth knowing, but there is little to nothing worth worrying about because there is zero to do at this stage in really stopping what may already have been done.

Just my cryptic two cents for an ugly truth of a topic and research is worth the time on some things, if you can compartmentalize feelings afterward anyway.

Wrabbit2000
There are some stories I've researched in my life for personal curiosity and education, that I came to dearly wish I'd left alone. Some things, if only a very very few, stand as examples where ignorance truly is bliss and knowing is not better than never being aware.

The story of prions, or scrapy (as it's called in the wild), or BSE as it's called among captive beef cattle, or CJD as it's called in human beings ...is one that is probably worth knowing, but there is little to nothing worth worrying about because there is zero to do at this stage in really stopping what may already have been done.

Just my cryptic two cents for an ugly truth of a topic and research is worth the time on some things, if you can compartmentalize feelings afterward anyway.

This is why Buddhism exists - truth is hard to handle. Fact is, the universe (and much of what's in it) is out of our control - which is why we let go (of our expectations, ego, desire to control).

That said, I don't think prions are so bad - some are good, like the ones that give us memories; even the disease-causing prions are likely helping us adapt to all the changes we've made to our planet's environment. We just need to take the long view here. And fact is, there are things we already know can do, with more becoming apparent the more we learn.



Note: I really do find the Western Christianity-based mind oddly myopic and self-destructive - seems dedicated to avoiding truth and reality, but obsessed with titillating itself with scary-but-distanced boogeymen like Satan, Armageddon, asteroids, aliens, demons and the like. Is it a size thing? Or just intrinsic deniability?

rickymouse
Good thread Soficrow. Can they even sterilize hospital equipment to stop this from spreading?

As serious of a statement you may have ment this to be,.. It is seriously comical.
Yet the hospital is disease infested and it is a fact.. A place where one is suppose to go and
get treatment runs the real risk of being contaminated by something else..

One would think it would be the most sterile place to be

reply to post by soficrow


Actually, beer is usually either clarified with bromelain or papain, because of low costs, and in most cases the moderate sulfites can be neutralized by eating bar nuts or seeds. Even adding cauliflower to the hot pickled eggs can have neutralizing effects. We seem to have all this neutralizing chemistry right in front of us and people ignore this because they don't understand how anyone would want to consume these, focusing only at the bad qualities and not the good. Beer also contains molybdenum from the hopps that can cancel out some of the negative effects of drinking.

To analyze something, you have to examine all parts and both sides of it, not only what you think is relevant. This takes a lot of research and some of the research I have been looking at is flawed, they are looking at the wrong chemistry as being good for you. Like lycopene, that does not work alone, it has companion chemistry that needs to be there. If it isn't there there is no benefit or else there could be negative benefits from it. I am just randomly picking one chemistry I recently did studying on.

I have multiple genetic "diseases" or "hereditary conditions" most of the autoimmune variety. I am trying to figure how I was able to get along with these things in the past and now they bother me. I have found that my knowledge has got in the way of my cravings for companion chemistry or antidote foods that I have heard are not good for us because of some reason. I also have TLE which necessitates eating more foods I am intolerant to because of these genetic problems. That brings up something an old person keeps telling me in my studies, how did we ever survive so long before without this information. Because they paid attention to what their bodies were telling them, they did not consume foods that hijacked their cravings to excess.

I think this prion disease has the same origination. Knowledge and avoidance of necessary companion chemistry is not being consumed to control this. Partially because our cravings have been hijacked. Our DNA knows how to stop this but it needs the right materials at the proper time. So we make one change which requires another change to compensate to keep us from having a problem of a different sort. Now, is our susceptibility to prion disorders increasing because of something we changed? People who ate their ancestors and were getting sick as a sign of respect is how they found out about prions. You have probably seen this. boingboing.net...