Deciphering the Pagan Stones

reply to post by rickymouse


Serves me right for being so flippant:

Bronze Celtic Triskele Chainmail Appliqués from Târgu Mureş, Romania
(See ‘Chainmail’article)



And, another Thracian link (from Logarock's link):

However, the triskele is a symbol of harmony and unification, not only in mythology, but also in geometry, its form and method of construction being a perfect example of the Golden Ratio (also called the golden section (Latin: sectio aurea), so central to the mathematical and religious movement called Pythagoreanism, with which the Celts were familiar:

“And the Celtic Druids investigated to the very highest point the Pythagorean philosophy, after Zamolxis, by birth a Thracian, a servant of Pythagoras, became to them the originator of this discipline. Now after the death of Pythagoras, Zamolxis, repairing thither, became to them the originator of this philosophy. The Celts esteem these as prophets and seers, on account of their foretelling to them certain (events), from calculations and numbers by the Pythagorean art”.
(Hippolytus. “Philosophumena” XXII)

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

Whoa!

Well in! What a find!!!
The first thing that comes to mind is the Epidii tribe in Kintyre! Oh my goodness, I'm going to read that link.

Well in....is that like say TOUCHDOWN!

Hay but what this Epidii? And look at this Kin-Tyre. Kin of Tyre! I need to stop now!

Gordi The Drummer
reply to post by beansidhe

 

Weren't there early Celtic invasions of Dacia/Thrace after Alexander The Great Died?

Hang on... < checking > I hate wiki, but..... yep, there's mention of it there LINK TO wiki

What's that... 3rd Cent. BC?

Yes, after the death of Alexander the Great, we hear of a Celtic tribe in Thrace. The Scordisci. (Does anyone else feel a waft of cold air through their body when they read that? The name looks oddly familiar..)

Despite the repulsion from Greece, Celtic power in the Balkans was certainly not at an end. After their formation c. 278 BC, little is heard of the Scordisci for some time. During Macedon's zenith, the attention of the Scordisci was focussed on Pannonia, consolidating their control of the region. They controlled the various Pannonian tribes in the region, extracting tribute and enjoying the status of the most powerful tribe in the central Balkans (see the tribes of Triballi, Autariatae, Dardanians and Moesians), and they erected fortresses in Singidunum[20] and Taurunum (today's city of Belgrade). The Roman's first siege of Segestica[year needed], having been under the control of their Pannonian clients, curtailed Celtic control in Dalmatia and south-western Pannonia.

This combined with the turmoil following Alexander the Great's death, prompted the Scordisci to turn their attention southward. They subjugated a number of tribes in Moesia, including the Dardani, several west Thracian tribes and the Paeonians.


Celtic tribes in the Balkans, c. 50 BC

In parts of Moesia (northeast Central Serbia) the Celtic Scordisci and Thracians lived beside each other, which is evident in the archeological findings of pits and treasures, spanning from 3rd century BC to 1st century BC.

The Scordisci worshipped Epona.

From Logarocks Link

The earliest evidence for the worship of Epona in Thrace comes from a small inscribed cult relief, discovered in the Sofia area of western Bulgaria. Dated to the late 4th/ 3rd c. BC, the carved ‘Scordus’ stone illustrates well the religious beliefs of the Celtic Scordisci who obviously worshiped Epona, the tribal ancestor-god and the warrior hero. The ritual function of the object is unclear, but carved stones displaying various imagery were widely used in Celtic cult practices (Manov 1993; Cunliffe 1992; 1997; Green 1986; 1992; 1995: 466-468; Megaw and Megaw 2001; Moscati et al. 1991). On one side of the relief a mare is depicted, which has been interpreted as a hippomorphic personification of Epona (Green 1986: 91-94, 173-174; 1992: 90-92; 1995: 479; Manov 1993 with cited lit.).

As mentioned, Epona was known as a deity of fertility and prosperity but she was also associated with beliefs relevant to death and the underworld. The other side of the carved stone shows a man in a fight to the death with an enormous snake. On the edge of the Sofia relief, a second snake is depicted together with a male facing to the front contiguous to a short incised inscription – ΣΚΟΡΔΟ (= genitive: ‘belonging to Scordus), i.e. the tribal eponym and ancestor-god Scordus, attested as Scordiscus in the sources (Appianus, Illyr. 2) (Manov 1993; see also ‘The Scordisci Wars’ and ‘Serdi/Serdica’ articles).

From Wiki

The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic,[7][8][9] Thracian[10] or Illyrian[11] or a Celtic mix of the above.[12] The Scordisci were found during different timelines in Illyria, Thrace and Dacia sometimes splitting into more than one group like the Scordisci Major and the Scordisci Minor.[13]
Andras Mocsy clarifies their ethnic character, suggesting that they were not a Celtic tribe per se, but a "Celtic political creation".

They were formed after 278 BC, as some of the survivors of the Celtic invasions of Greece settled the above-mentioned region[15] imposing themselves as a thin, yet powerful, ruling class. Rather quickly, they were subsumed by the numerically superior natives, although the Celtic tribal name was retained, albeit the Illyricized version Scordistae[16] was often used after the 2nd century BC.[17] According to onomastic evidence, Scordiscan settlements to the east of the Morava river were Thracianized.

reply to post by Logarock


Yeah, like Bullseye!

Kintyre? Oh TYRE?!! Kin of TYRE!! OMG!

What's going on here!! This is too much!

reply to post by Ramcheck


Those Albanoi Celts were very close to those Scorisci geography.....and right across the bay from Italy. Heck I am about ready to say that Julius Caesar, of the Julli clan of...Alba Italy... was in reality a Gaulish Celt from the Albanoi clan...and had the unmitigated gall to believe that he could bring all the tribes under the rule of the Roman Julli Albanoi. But I wont yet.

reply to post by beansidhe


Bit late now.. but I had thought about the etymology of the name Kintyre previously, but thought it maybe too obvious.

Kin-Tyre (family of Tyre) ?

It's right in the heart of Dál Riata.

Oh well.

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

Yeah, like Bullseye!

Kintyre? Oh TYRE?!! Kin of TYRE!! OMG!

What's going on here!! This is too much!

One thing you can note about Scotts is their investigative qualities. Ever notice how many sons of those Kilt wearing, naked fighting, tattooed mountain fighters are to be found contributing at the top of any subject? Scholars, inventors, ect...ect you name it. Scottness! That's whats going on here! But I really need to get off here. Its probably dark thirty over there in Alba. So good night.....nas da! Or Noswaith dda.

reply to post by Ramcheck


Do you know it had never occurred to me? The Epidii were the famed Pictish horsemen, quite a distinct group by all accounts.

A Celtic political creation, hmm. Now that's interesting.
I'm wondering now about Celts looking for asylum, if you will, against the Roman onslaught of Gaul?

reply to post by Logarock


It's cold and dark in Alba, but it's starting to get a lot clearer!
Cheers Logarock, catch you soon

Logarock
reply to post by Ramcheck

 

Those Albanoi Celts were very close to those Scorisci geography.....and right across the bay from Italy. Heck I am about ready to say that Julius Caesar, of the Julli clan of...Alba Italy... was in reality a Gaulish Celt from the Albanoi clan...and had the unmitigated gall to believe that he could bring all the tribes under the rule of the Roman Julli Albanoi. But I wont yet.

Caeser is a funny one, I mean how much can we really believe about his Invasions of Iron Age Britain? I'm inclined to take half-truths from Roman writing and piece together what little tidbits of truth I can gather from it. By all accounts he should have stayed in Rome where he was heralded and had a comfortable life.

If the Romans tell us it was simply 'not a success' then I have to conclude for myself that is was an unequivocal disaster.

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

It's cold and dark in Alba, but it's starting to get a lot clearer!
Cheers Logarock, catch you soon

It was nice and sunny today right enough down Glasgow way. Not quite tanning weather yet though.

reply to post by Ramcheck


It was nice here, but it's freezing now. I've got the fire on!

I can't find what I'm looking for, but your link above talks about the back of a stone where a man wrestles a serpent. There is one Pict stone where that story is told on it too. He slays the serpent that's terrorising the village. Aargh, I'll find it. Because I want to see what else is on that Pict stone and if the stories could match up?
Because a Celtic/Thracian political alliance, seeking refuge in an already Dan filled country sounds just about right. Lol!

beansidhe
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Serves me right for being so flippant:

Bronze Celtic Triskele Chainmail Appliqués from Târgu Mureş, Romania
(See ‘Chainmail’article)

And, another Thracian link (from Logarock's link):

However, the triskele is a symbol of harmony and unification, not only in mythology, but also in geometry, its form and method of construction being a perfect example of the Golden Ratio (also called the golden section (Latin: sectio aurea), so central to the mathematical and religious movement called Pythagoreanism, with which the Celts were familiar:

“And the Celtic Druids investigated to the very highest point the Pythagorean philosophy, after Zamolxis, by birth a Thracian, a servant of Pythagoras, became to them the originator of this discipline. Now after the death of Pythagoras, Zamolxis, repairing thither, became to them the originator of this philosophy. The Celts esteem these as prophets and seers, on account of their foretelling to them certain (events), from calculations and numbers by the Pythagorean art”.
(Hippolytus. “Philosophumena” XXII)

Had to look up flippant.....Thought you may have been calling yourself a person who watches flipper(the porpoise) on tv a lot.

reply to post by beansidhe


I haven't had time yet to list the stones. As per, my ambition of matching stones with a chronological map and photos of each is going to take some time and a clear head. This thread is so interesting that I keep getting distracted by new information and various branches of the Celtic tree appearing from nowhere. It seems logical somehow that all this information was swept under the carpet and buried by our history teachers, who clearly found it simpler to just start from the Romans and work their way forward.

reply to post by beansidhe


Have seen something similar among anicient tools. Some drawings on stones look exactly as tools to be more exact. Old pagan markings are still identical and used till this day.

ars.mkp.emokykla.lt...

reply to post by PonderingSceptic


Thanks, they do have the same motifs there, especially the double disc I notice. Where are those tools from?
I can't upload photos at the moment but I'll do it later tonight.
Thanks PonderingSceptic

Ramcheck
reply to post by beansidhe

 

I haven't had time yet to list the stones. As per, my ambition of matching stones with a chronological map and photos of each is going to take some time and a clear head. This thread is so interesting that I keep getting distracted by new information and various branches of the Celtic tree appearing from nowhere. It seems logical somehow that all this information was swept under the carpet and buried by our history teachers, who clearly found it simpler to just start from the Romans and work their way forward.

I know, it's very frustrating. Our history comes from the Irish Annals, the suppressed Welsh documents and the Romans. There is no written history of early Scotland by it's inhabitants - other than our stones. Was it Caesar who noted that the Picts buried their dead with written poetry? I can't remember who it was, but I'm sure McHardy mentions it in one of his books.
So where did all our writing go?
As another twist to the story, I learned last night that William Wallace was from prominent Welsh ancestory, something I didn't know before.
I think Muzzleflash had it right when he said earlier:

Perhaps our maps and 'nation labeling' attitude we are indoctrinated with betrays the reality of travel, interbreeding, etc, far more than an accurate portrayal of history would allow?

reply to post by Gordi The Drummer


Possibly right name, but wrong Arthur. According to Wilson, it is Arthur 1st who fought in Scotland, and around the 4th century, after -wait for it -his return from the Balkans.

I'll find the paragraph after work, and link it here, but actually I prefer that. It suits our thinking about the time of the stones much better, that they are earlier rather than later.

beansidhe

Ramcheck
reply to post by beansidhe

 

I haven't had time yet to list the stones. As per, my ambition of matching stones with a chronological map and photos of each is going to take some time and a clear head. This thread is so interesting that I keep getting distracted by new information and various branches of the Celtic tree appearing from nowhere. It seems logical somehow that all this information was swept under the carpet and buried by our history teachers, who clearly found it simpler to just start from the Romans and work their way forward.

I know, it's very frustrating. Our history comes from the Irish Annals, the suppressed Welsh documents and the Romans. There is no written history of early Scotland by it's inhabitants - other than our stones. Was it Caesar who noted that the Picts buried their dead with written poetry? I can't remember who it was, but I'm sure McHardy mentions it in one of his books.
So where did all our writing go?
As another twist to the story, I learned last night that William Wallace was from prominent Welsh ancestory, something I didn't know before.
I think Muzzleflash had it right when he said earlier:

Hi,
May I just put this forward as food for thought, I appreciate it might have already been covered so no offence taken if you want to slap me.

I have scan read more or less the whole thread now.....*gives self some brownie points*

OK......I'm not very good with dates, but waaaay back Britain was Welsh, welsh was the spoken language, and very different to todays spoken Welsh. As some of you have already noted some of the Scottish place names like Glasgow/Glascoed have their roots in the welsh language. At that time Druidry (not to be confused in any way with peoples perception of Druids/neo-druids of today) was practiced. Within that practice nothing was written or recorded except by word of mouth. The reason you can't find written Scottish records is because the Romans never managed to conquer them. The only written records of the Welsh comes from a Roman and welsh writings when the welsh folk forgot/converted from Druidry. So Scotlands Druidic history remains intact.....and a 'secret'.

William Wallace. I've known for a very long time of his ancestry. Hence why one of my daughters middle names (she was born in Scotland with a Scottish father)....is the female version of Wallace which is Wallis....which means....from Wales.

I'm keeping an eye on the thread, and will chip in if I have anything pertinent or useful to say

Rainbows
Jane

beansidhe
reply to post by Gordi The Drummer

 

Possibly right name, but wrong Arthur. According to Wilson, it is Arthur 1st who fought in Scotland, and around the 4th century, after -wait for it -his return from the Balkans.

I'll find the paragraph after work, and link it here, but actually I prefer that. It suits our thinking about the time of the stones much better, that they are earlier rather than later.

I need to bite into this Wilson material. From what you keep quoting from him he has been there and done that. However it is good that we find our there anyway. Sort of an independent confirmation. Whats interesting is that the thougt came to mind that maybe some or all of the Arthurian tales were of Thrace.


Just a side note. There is an Irish name Sisk. It is of unknown origin but thought to be from a Welsh word Siskus which means stranger. There was a tribe in the Balkans that called itself Sisak. Its also of note that the tribe Scorisci is a candidate for an etymological study the word Scott.